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Post by atteSmythe on Oct 26, 2016 14:52:39 GMT
It makes me really nervous that Smitty's back is to us :/
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Post by TBeholder on Oct 26, 2016 15:06:29 GMT
Paz in shadow seems sad, for some reason, it's probably fine though. Kat is playing with the big girls and didn't invite her. Again.  |
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Post by Eisenblume on Oct 26, 2016 15:09:50 GMT
I DON'T LIKE THAT SMITTY IS TURNED AWAY THAT USUALLY MEANS DEATH PLEASE DON'T DIE SMITTY
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Post by eyemyself on Oct 26, 2016 15:27:40 GMT
I had to register to comment this: The stances of Shadow and Robot are quite similar to Kat and Annie, like they're doing the same. I also noticed this, and that Shadow is looking back to see if Robot is following, whereas Kat is looking forward, bright-eyed and engaged with what is ahead, unaware that Annie is looking back towards the court/her father with apprehension. Additionally, Smitty literally has his back turned not only to us - but to the court. It almost seems like a defiant stance. Parley looks alert and ready to defend him and she is looking back at the court. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Oct 26, 2016 16:04:12 GMT
Parley looks alert and ready to defend him and she is looking back at the court. I agree with others, Parley appears to be looking at Jeanne. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2016 16:22:41 GMT
On the subjects of... a toga: Pallium, I think; the toga tends to develop slight complications near the waistline. I'm not sure, though. Socrates: I'm not reminded of the School of Athens by the treatise, but I find the thought of Ysengrin impersonating Michelangelo impersonating Heraclit deliciously double-edged at every step. Next card. Since it fits tangentially: Plato commonly makes the idealist's gesture (which is distant kin to a fish drawn in the sand) when juxtaposed with down-to-earth Aristotle; here's a later example with the eternal dispute already set in stone, also starring two astrolabes. a stellated octahedron: Stellated octahedron, I -- Never you mind. What hasn't been mentioned yet: Starting from a tetrahedron, for each of its equilateral triangles, connect the halfway points of its sides and extend the resulting triangle into a tetrahedron. Thus you receive the stellated octahedron. Essentially, it "adds a dimension" to the planar figures directly below it. You can also view it as two conjoined and mirrored tetrahedra rather like a three-dimensional Star of David (which, again, plays into the upper/lower-triangular motif of complements already present in the previous treatises; on that note, I once saw the Laplace and Nabla operators used to designate sex on bathroom doors inside a school in Lithuania). Paz and Kat, Parley and Smitty: What happens to them will hinge on what holding hands could mean in this page. I am wary of Smith with his hands behind his back in any regard. Incidentally, St. Andrew's Cross and St. George's Cross, imposed upon each other, form a stylized star or compass rose. alethiometry: was not my Oxford English Dictionary Word of the Day. The circle behind Kat's hand suggests a compass to me, or perhaps more precisely a za'irja, albeit with only the outermost circle and central symbol included. If that is true, I would suggest that these discs can rotate, perhaps autonomously, or perhaps only when operated. column carvings: It looks as though the nascent robot religion will find a mirror-image on the Forest side, or it is thus compared to the emigration of prospective Foley students. Ysengrin's bulky frame blocks the line of sight on the second column; apart from the null hypothesis (compositional constraints), I suggest that the robot neophytes are larger in numbers, or will have a weightier impact on the story. |
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Post by rosencrantz on Oct 26, 2016 17:24:58 GMT
The Red proposing to Wassername (probably just Tom trolling) makes me wonder, can forest expats get names by marriage?
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Grabix
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Post by Grabix on Oct 26, 2016 17:41:16 GMT
Oh no! Triangles! We have entered new symmetry.
(There is unusual amount of trinality...)
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 26, 2016 17:47:31 GMT
Ysengrin and Coyote == Romeo and Juliet? “Oh, I shall teach you how you may forget to think. I shall steal away your memories most dark, and give to you the deep sweet sleep of dreams. And when you should die, I will take you, my dearest wolf and cut you in little stars, and place your face in the sky, and you will make the face of heaven so fine that all the world will be in love with night..." Your meter is terrible. I expected more from Coyote Himself. |
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Post by eyemyself on Oct 26, 2016 18:04:49 GMT
“Oh, I shall teach you how you may forget to think. I shall steal away your memories most dark, and give to you the deep sweet sleep of dreams. And when you should die, I will take you, my dearest wolf and cut you in little stars, and place your face in the sky, and you will make the face of heaven so fine that all the world will be in love with night..." Your meter is terrible. I expected more from Coyote Himself. I expected nothing less. Coyote is not known for his diligence to detail. Recall his glass-eyed men? Or the way he scattered the stars when he got bored? |
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Post by atteSmythe on Oct 26, 2016 19:04:40 GMT
I love the astrolabe around the sun at the top. Very Game of Thrones, heh. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think that's the sun. I think the sun and moon have representations just below (and at the cornices of the surrounding columns, but I don't consider that part of the same 'scene'). If that's the case, the big ball would be some other entity or power - perhaps the ether itself. This is...congruent with, if not consistent with, treatises 1, 5 and 6 at least. In each of those, the sun and moon were in a lesser position. In 4, they're outside the frame entirely. In the others, they're not depicted so prominently. |
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Post by bedinsis on Oct 26, 2016 19:25:40 GMT
Looking over the old treatises I realized this is the first time Parley & Smitty are part of a treatise.
Looking closer on this treatise I see Coyote's front legs looking brown and bandaged.
The most exciting part is probably the partially blocked triangle with Kat & Annie's symbol. I saw it earlier, but had nothing of value to add aside from acknowledging it, but looking at it now it looks like the last symbol could be the Bismuth symbol. It kind of looks like the left part of a circle symbol, the little I can see.
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Post by fia on Oct 26, 2016 19:38:42 GMT
The overall construction of the page reminds me of the School of Athens...somewhat. It's mostly in the clothing and architecture. I think Kat is wearing a chiton. I love the astrolabe around the sun at the top. Very Game of Thrones, heh. Actually, the first thing I thought was that Kat looked like Plato in the School of Athens painting (a copy of which I have on my wall!  ). Contrary to popular opinion, it is Plato, not Socrates, in the painting; he is speaking to Aristotle. Plato points up to indicate his idealism; Aristotle points down to indicate his materialism. Importantly, in that painting Plato holds a copy of the Timaeus, his theory of the cosmos. I think this text contains a lot of Treatise-friendly hints! I think Kat's Greek clothes indicate, as well, that she's moving to a time earlier than the Middle Ages for her theories; she's getting to the bottom of the theory behind the Court and the Robots. (It also fits with the intended metaphor for Raphael's School of Athens; it symbolized the pursuit of knowledge of ultimate causes). There's a bit of the imagery here that reminds me of Pythagorean ideas. Pythagoras is in School of Athens, too, but he's not in the main position, like Plato and Aristotle. Still, I mention him because Pythagoreans (and some neo-Platonists) thought the Earth revolved around, not the sun, but a great fire. Since there's no Bismuth symbol here, I'm wondering whether the 'sun' here is the stand-in. On the other hand, this whole Kat thing might just be neo-Platonist or a little Renaissance-y, which is all cool and good. But still, couple all this Timaeus stuff with her Jesuslike robes, and she does start to get close to 'KAT IS THE DEMIURGE'. |
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Post by fia on Oct 26, 2016 20:03:24 GMT
Also: I think I found the reference for the relevant symbology on the right side of the Treatise, where Kat is pointing: Time and Eternity
It was made by this guy, Jacob Boehme, the famous/infamous theosophist, I believe. I had a copy of one of his books for a short time when I dated an occult-myth/symbology obsessed dude. |
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 26, 2016 20:19:22 GMT
Also: I think I found the reference for the relevant symbology on the right side of the Treatise, where Kat is pointing: Time and EternityVery good catch! Also, I'm a little late, but welcome to the forum  But still, couple all this Timaeus stuff with her Jesuslike robes, and she does start to get close to 'KAT IS THE DEMIURGE'. I've been saying this for years. They called me mad! Mad, I tell you, mad! Now who's the crazy one? *high-pitched laughter* |
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Post by arf on Oct 26, 2016 23:07:57 GMT
I DON'T LIKE THAT SMITTY IS TURNED AWAY THAT USUALLY MEANS DEATH PLEASE DON'T DIE SMITTY Don't worry. If Paul McCartney can survive this treatment... |
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Post by arf on Oct 26, 2016 23:30:51 GMT
Also: I think I found the reference for the relevant symbology on the right side of the Treatise, where Kat is pointing: Time and EternityVery good catch! Also, I'm a little late, but welcome to the forum Definitely a good catch. In fact, this picture looks like the basis for the whole treatise. The symbology on the right is Eternity, The astrolabe is Time, and the symbology behind Kat and Annie is a modified form of Nature. This may be reading too much (half the fun!), but the reference image has a white background mandela centered on Nothing. Jeanne? |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Oct 27, 2016 0:09:12 GMT
... The most exciting part is probably the partially blocked triangle with Kat & Annie's symbol. I saw it earlier, but had nothing of value to add aside from acknowledging it, but looking at it now it looks like the last symbol could be the Bismuth symbol. It kind of looks like the left part of a circle symbol, the little I can see. I think we would see the left "horn" if the bottom symbol was Bismuth. It could be a circle with a dot in the middle. That symbol appears in every treatise except #3. It is in the upper right corner of this treatise under the fire elemental and opposite the moon under Jones. It seems to represent the sun although it sometimes seemed to be an eye. There is no way to know what the bottom symbol is given this version of the page. Also: I think I found the reference for the relevant symbology on the right side of the Treatise, where Kat is pointing: Time and Eternity
It was made by this guy, Jacob Boehme, the famous/infamous theosophist, I believe. I had a copy of one of his books for a short time when I dated an occult-myth/symbology obsessed dude.I would give you my cookies, but I already ate them. Did your occult-myth/symbology obsessed dude keep your book and his first name Tom? |
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Post by Per on Oct 27, 2016 1:14:23 GMT
Since it fits tangentially: Plato commonly makes the idealist's gesture (which is distant kin to a fish drawn in the sand) when juxtaposed with down-to-earth Aristotle; here's a later example with the eternal dispute already set in stone, also starring two astrolabes. I love how in that painting Plato is all "You come over here and I'll f**k your s**t up." |
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Post by zaferion on Oct 27, 2016 7:27:45 GMT
I had to register to comment this: The stances of Shadow and Robot are quite similar to Kat and Annie, like they're doing the same. I also noticed this, and that Shadow is looking back to see if Robot is following, whereas Kat is looking forward, bright-eyed and engaged with what is ahead, unaware that Annie is looking back towards the court/her father with apprehension. Historically, Kat has been the most innocent, out-of-the-loop character. (I guess they ALL kind of are since they're just high school students, but Kat's out-of-the-loop-ness far exceeds everyone else's.) She knows of most plot points in the story, but she's the only one that doesn't fully understand the intricacies of the overarching story. As far as Kat is concerned, she's just a 14 year old girl fiddling with robots and helping her friends. |
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Post by saardvark on Oct 27, 2016 11:20:24 GMT
Also: I think I found the reference for the relevant symbology on the right side of the Treatise, where Kat is pointing: Time and Eternity
It was made by this guy, Jacob Boehme, the famous/infamous theosophist, I believe. I had a copy of one of his books for a short time when I dated an occult-myth/symbology obsessed dude.hmm, Tom has made some modifications, but it *is* quite a good match. At top you've got a planar projection of the stellated octahedron combined with the za'irja (ID-ed by Korba) - Tom has separated these, putting the za'irja at center of his design. Astrolabe at bottom has been moved to top of page. Lower moon vertex has been stripped of its planetary symbols. But generally all is here, in a reshuffled way... |
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Post by saardvark on Oct 27, 2016 11:32:23 GMT
... The most exciting part is probably the partially blocked triangle with Kat & Annie's symbol. I saw it earlier, but had nothing of value to add aside from acknowledging it, but looking at it now it looks like the last symbol could be the Bismuth symbol. It kind of looks like the left part of a circle symbol, the little I can see. I think we would see the left "horn" if the bottom symbol was Bismuth. It could be a circle with a dot in the middle. That symbol appears in every treatise except #3. It is in the upper right corner of this treatise under the fire elemental and opposite the moon under Jones. It seems to represent the sun although it sometimes seemed to be an eye. There is no way to know what the bottom symbol is given this version of the page. Circle with the dot in the middle can also be the alchemical symbol for gold. Transmutation of base metals into gold (the most perfect metal), is of course, one of the major goals of alchemy. Perhaps Tom is symbolically saying: you put Annie and Kat (Forest and Technology/Court) together to get gold - the desired goal, perfection of existence. In a way it is a return to Eden, man (with technology) and nature coexisting, in peace and harmony and fluffy bunnies. |
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Post by fia on Oct 28, 2016 5:02:42 GMT
Also: I think I found the reference for the relevant symbology on the right side of the Treatise, where Kat is pointing: Time and Eternity
It was made by this guy, Jacob Boehme, the famous/infamous theosophist, I believe. I had a copy of one of his books for a short time when I dated an occult-myth/symbology obsessed dude.I would give you my cookies, but I already ate them. Did your occult-myth/symbology obsessed dude keep your book and his first name Tom? Haha, no! Believe it or not these dudes exist all over the place, they just rarely overlap with each other because of their typical temperaments, viz. reserved and bookish.  Also though when you're the kind of person who is into myth, philosophy, and alternative science and alternative theology generally, you end up somehow learning about alchemy, various theistic traditions, and therefore, about symbology and the occult. My route into it was through myth and ancient Greece. My ex's was through theology and mysticism in the Christian/Abrahamic tradition. I dunno about Tom; but I'm not surprised he is familiar with Jacob Boehme. If you follow the rabbit hole, it connects to other rabbit holes, which have common tunnels, haha. |
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Post by KMar on Oct 28, 2016 7:47:37 GMT
I don't have much to add to the alchemi-mytho-historical reference discussion, but... Is Kat taking the role of God as Architect of the Universe? (https://scalambra.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/god-as-architect-of-the-universe-bible-moralisc3a9e-france-1250.jpg?w=497) Or maybe she is taking that of Science? (https://legionofhonor.famsf.org/files/lahyre_snap_0.jpg)(http://www.artkarma.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Allegory-of-Knowledge2-199x300.jpg) Or perhaps just of Dante as Dante's guide? (http://www.artwarefineart.com/sites/default/files/portraits/dante%26virgil.jpg) ...dang, now I want some fanart of Kat as Blake's The Ancient of Days. |
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Post by Storel on Oct 29, 2016 2:01:06 GMT
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Post by casualobserver on Oct 29, 2016 12:59:31 GMT
Just a quick "thank you" to all you folks for making this forum such an interesting and enjoyable addition to Tom's work!
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