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Post by Nnelg on Sept 9, 2016 19:37:49 GMT
Jeanne was the one destroying the camera, and she hurt Annie when she first was down in the gorge. The Anwyn only appeared when Annie touched the arrow, in etheric state. Exactly: Jeanne attacked premptively, and on the Court-side shore at that. The first time someone actually entered the waters, the Anwyn reacted. It looks to me like Jeanne is lashing out randomly, while the Anwyn only stops those who attempt to cross. That they know about. I doubt the ROTD knows her lover even exists. It's entirely possible that Jeanne's data was collateral damage from deleting his records. Looks to me like he was deluded into thinking that Jeanne would come crying 'back' to him after the green guy died. |
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Post by Eversist on Sept 9, 2016 19:54:30 GMT
Jeanne was the one destroying the camera, and she hurt Annie when she first was down in the gorge. The Anwyn only appeared when Annie touched the arrow, in etheric state. Exactly: Jeanne attacked premptively, and on the Court-side shore at that. The first time someone actually entered the waters, the Anwyn reacted. It looks to me like Jeanne is lashing out randomly, while the Anwyn only stops those who attempt to cross. In that case, why weren't they confronted in the boat? Why didn't Annie encounter the Anwyn before actually touching the arrow? That they know about. I doubt the ROTD knows her lover even exists. It's entirely possible that Jeanne's data was collateral damage from deleting his records. Sure, I suppose that's possible. Looks to me like he was deluded into thinking that Jeanne would come crying 'back' to him after the green guy died. A sound possibility as well. |
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Post by eyemyself on Sept 9, 2016 20:48:13 GMT
Looks to me like he was deluded into thinking that Jeanne would come crying 'back' to him after the green guy died. A sound possibility as well.[/quote] I'm not buying it. Here Diego is referred to as the "architect of our plan" implying that he is the one who came up with the plan and therefor was fully aware of the details having been instrumental to crafting them and here is pretty clear that he is the one who chose Jeanne as the "sacrifice." He even insists that it must be her and the plan will work with no one else. I've always interpreted that chapter as his bitterness over having been spurned time and time again for her love becoming thinly veiled justification for killing her in the name of the greater good. He even says to her just before the plan goes down " It didn't have to be this way" and she seems to know that something isn't right, and he had more to do with it than he is letting on. EDIT: Here Jeanne outright calls herself "the sentinel of these waters" before going on to attack Parley while stating " The luxury afforded by my death should be mine to take." EDIT 2: Jeanne was the one destroying the camera, and she hurt Annie when she first was down in the gorge. The Anwyn only appeared when Annie touched the arrow, in etheric state. Exactly: Jeanne attacked premptively, and on the Court-side shore at that. The first time someone actually entered the waters, the Anwyn reacted. It looks to me like Jeanne is lashing out randomly, while the Anwyn only stops those who attempt to cross. Also, that was not the first tome someone entered the Annan waters. The Tic Toc who saved Annie when she fell all the way back in Chapter 8: deposited her into the river near the forest side of the shore - presumably because the Tic Tocs are aware of the threat Jeanne poses to anything on the court side of the river. |
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Post by Nnelg on Sept 9, 2016 21:15:36 GMT
I'm not buying it. Here Diego is referred to as the "architect of our plan" implying that he is the one who came up with the plan and therefor was fully aware of the details having been instrumental to crafting them and here is pretty clear that he is the one who chose Jeanne as the "sacrifice." Assuming sacrificing Jeanne was part of the plan. I'm saying that the plan might not have required that Jeanne died, only the green guy. If so, Jeanne was just bait and her death was either an accidental side effect or suicide. |
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Post by eyemyself on Sept 9, 2016 21:22:34 GMT
I'm not buying it. Here Diego is referred to as the "architect of our plan" implying that he is the one who came up with the plan and therefor was fully aware of the details having been instrumental to crafting them and here is pretty clear that he is the one who chose Jeanne as the "sacrifice." Assuming sacrificing Jeanne was part of the plan. I'm saying that the plan might not have required that Jeanne died, only the green guy. If so, Jeanne was just bait and her death was either an accidental side effect or suicide. In the text the unnamed fellow literally refers to her as "the sacrifice" right before Diego reiterates that it "must be her" because the "plan will work with no one else" and Jeanne describes what happened as her body being ensnared by the green light and discarded as useless while her rage was forged white hot into the sentinel of these waters. No mention of any action from the green dude beyond referring to him as her heart pinned to the riverbed. I don't know how much more clear the textual evidence needs to be or how blatantly it needs to be spelled out for you to believe that Jeanne is the one doing the killing - but time and time again that is what the text has been pointing to. Whereas, there hasn't been any evidence of activity or sightings of our green friend other than in flashbacks when he was alive until Annie literally touched the arrow. Alternatively, there is evidence that Diego, upon realizing that Jeanne was not in fact charmed by his robots and was putting on a show of politeness whenever he would present his gifts finally realized that Jeanne did not and would not return his love and in fact was still in love with another. This was compounded by the fact that she seemed to be getting irritated with his advances rather than recognizing Diego for the "nice guy" he knew himself to be and so he concluded that he'd never get the love from her he felt he deserved and so decided to punish her - but he couldn't bring himself to just outright do that so he came up with a complicated plan to justify her punishment in the name of the "greater good." As a talented scientist he discovered a way to weaponize her love for someone else by sacrificing them both. Green dude would die quickly, his soul trapped in the arrow and because Jeanne's heart was tethered to his by their shared love her soul would linger in the world of living long after her body wasted away. There was never any possibility of rescue, her abandonment was always part of the plan. She would suffer, alone with the memory of watching her lover die. The court's most talented fencer wasting away until all that was left was burning rage and the peerless skill of an expert fighter who'd watched the person she cared for most in the world killed in front of her eyes by people she trusted - knowing she'd been led to this moment and this circumstance by their deceit. Years later, on his deathbed, surrounded by his robots and consumed by guilt, Diego lies to himself and to his "children" to assuage his guilt. Because even after all that time he still can't stand to hold himself accountable for the fact that he killed a woman simply because she didn't love him. However, just like he and his co-conspirators planned, Jeanne's ghost lingers on slaying any who get too close to the court side shore of the Annan waters - a forgotten, deadly protector. Meanwhile, the spirit of her green lover, who probably didn't even realize what was happening to him when the arrow hit, has existed in isolation inside the etheric prison of the arrow as the other half of the tether that keeps Jeanne's soul from migrating. He hasn't seen anything but the walls of his prison for hundreds of years. He hasn't spoken to another entity since his swim to meet his lover was interrupted by his untimely death. He's just been in this prison, possibly in pain, perpetually alone and probably unsure of what even happened and why he is here. Suddenly, after what must seem like and eternity of solitude there's this little girl with firey hair in prison with him. She seems to recognize him and she knows his lover's name. He doesn't know if she's friend or foe, he's been alone for a very, very long time and he's got questions and this child seems like she might have some answers after all these years. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Sept 9, 2016 21:49:14 GMT
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Post by Nnelg on Sept 9, 2016 22:05:42 GMT
In the text the unnamed fellow literally refers to her as "the sacrifice" Oh. How did I miss that? That does contradict the theory rather hard. But please forgive me for assuming there's more to everyone's motivations than what first impressions suggest. This mild paranoia paid off in Coyote's and Anthony's cases, and thus has become rather ingrained for anything GKC-related. |
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Post by eyemyself on Sept 9, 2016 22:07:04 GMT
Assuming sacrificing Jeanne was part of the plan. I'm saying that the plan might not have required that Jeanne died, only the green guy. If so, Jeanne was just bait and her death was either an accidental side effect or suicide. In the text the unnamed fellow literally refers to her as "the sacrifice" right before Diego reiterates that it "must be her" because the "plan will work with no one else" and Jeanne describes what happened as her body being ensnared by the green light and discarded as useless while her rage was forged white hot into the sentinel of these waters. No mention of any action from the green dude beyond referring to him as her heart pinned to the riverbed. I don't know how much more clear the textual evidence needs to be or how blatantly it needs to be spelled out for you to believe that Jeanne is the one doing the killing - but time and time again that is what the text has been pointing to. Whereas, there hasn't been any evidence of activity or sightings of our green friend other than in flashbacks when he was alive until Annie literally touched the arrow. Alternatively, there is evidence that Diego, upon realizing that Jeanne was not in fact charmed by his robots and was putting on a show of politeness whenever he would present his gifts finally realized that Jeanne did not and would not return his love and in fact was still in love with another. This was compounded by the fact that she seemed to be getting irritated with his advances rather than recognizing Diego for the "nice guy" he knew himself to be and so he concluded that he'd never get the love from her he felt he deserved and so decided to punish her - but he couldn't bring himself to just outright do that so he came up with a complicated plan to justify her punishment in the name of the "greater good." As a talented scientist he discovered a way to weaponize her love for someone else by sacrificing them both. Green dude would die quickly, his soul trapped in the arrow and because Jeanne's heart was tethered to his by their shared love her soul would linger in the world of living long after her body wasted away. There was never any possibility of rescue, her abandonment was always part of the plan. She would suffer, alone with the memory of watching her lover die. The court's most talented fencer wasting away until all that was left was burning rage and the peerless skill of an expert fighter who'd watched the person she cared for most in the world killed in front of her eyes by people she trusted - knowing she'd been led to this moment and this circumstance by their deceit. Years later, on his deathbed, surrounded by his robots and consumed by guilt, Diego lies to himself and to his "children" to assuage his guilt. Because even after all that time he still can't stand to hold himself accountable for the fact that he killed a woman simply because she didn't love him. However, just like he and his co-conspirators planned, Jeanne's ghost lingers on slaying any who get too close to the court side shore of the Annan waters - a forgotten, deadly protector. Meanwhile, the spirit of her green lover, who probably didn't even realize what was happening to him when the arrow hit, has existed in isolation inside the etheric prison of the arrow as the other half of the tether that keeps Jeanne's soul from migrating. He hasn't seen anything but the walls of his prison for hundreds of years. He hasn't spoken to another entity since his swim to meet his lover was interrupted by his untimely death. He's just been in this prison, possibly in pain, perpetually alone and probably unsure of what even happened and why he is here. Suddenly, after what must seem like and eternity of solitude there's this little girl with firey hair in prison with him. She seems to recognize him and she knows his lover's name. He doesn't know if she's friend or foe, he's been alone for a very, very long time and he's got questions and this child seems like she might have some answers after all these years. Heck, the fact that she can't bear to leave the spot where she last saw her lover might even be the primary motive for her attacking anything and anyone that comes close. She suffered so much at his loss that she refuses to go gently into that good night and instead rages, rages against anything that is perceived as a potential threat to her eternal pain. My theory is that the Arrow is both a prison and a transmission device. It keeps the green dude's soul confined on this plane - unable to escape - and because of the love connection between him and Jeanne her soul "feels" his and cannot move on as a result. |
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Post by keef on Sept 9, 2016 22:10:54 GMT
I wonder how aware of the events that lead to him being trapped there is he. Absolutely! He is probably aware of the fact that he is dead, but as his soul is isolated in the arrow, he knows - He is dead.
- Murdered.
- He was asked to cross the river.
- The person who asked him to cross was Jeanne.
- He was shot, crossing the river.
- The moment Annie mentioned Jeanne, he grabs her throat.
Well, if she just remembers not to mention Jeanne's name for a minute... |
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Post by eyemyself on Sept 9, 2016 22:18:36 GMT
I wonder how aware of the events that lead to him being trapped there is he. Absolutely! He is probably aware of the fact that he is dead, but as his soul is isolated in the arrow, he knows - He is dead.
- Murdered.
- He was asked to cross the river.
- The person who asked him to cross was Jeanne.
- He was shot, crossing the river.
- The moment Annie mentioned Jeanne, he grabs her throat.
Well, if she just remembers not to mention Jeanne's name for a minute... I think it could go either way. He either thinks she betrayed him and blames her for his long, painful isolation or that aforementioned wild spec love tether between them that I think keeps Jeanne's soul connected to his and holds her to the shore is a two way conduit and he's been keenly away of her spirit's presence and the fact that she is suffering, alone and angry for the entire time he's imprisoned. I think either of those would give him reason to grab at some random stranger whose breached his isolation chamber, seems to know who he is and knows his lover's name. One way or another dude has to be freaking out and really wants some answers. |
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Post by eyemyself on Sept 9, 2016 22:22:47 GMT
In the text the unnamed fellow literally refers to her as "the sacrifice" Oh. How did I miss that? That does contradict the theory rather hard. But please forgive me for assuming there's more to everyone's motivations than what first impressions suggest. This mild paranoia paid off in Coyote's and Anthony's cases, and thus has become rather ingrained for anything GKC-related. Completely understandable. And completely justified with Coyote and with the forces manipulating Anthony's feelings for his dead wife. Diego, on the other hand just seems to be your run of the mill sad-sack who turned to violence when his belief that wanting the girl should be enough to get him the girl turned out to be false. Not that there might not have been higher ups at the court who saw his anger and frustration and exploited it by manipulating him and goading on his violent inclinations, mind you. |
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Post by Nnelg on Sept 9, 2016 22:23:05 GMT
I wonder how aware of the events that lead to him being trapped there is he. Absolutely! He is probably aware of the fact that he is dead, but as his soul is isolated in the arrow, he knows - He is dead.
- Murdered.
- He was asked to cross the river.
- The person who asked him to cross was Jeanne.
- He was shot, crossing the river.
Well, he might not remember the circumstances of his death that well. That one ghost kid didn't, after all, and he didn't have hundreds of years of confinement to drive him insane. |
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Post by eyemyself on Sept 9, 2016 22:29:05 GMT
Absolutely! He is probably aware of the fact that he is dead, but as his soul is isolated in the arrow, he knows - He is dead.
- Murdered.
- He was asked to cross the river.
- The person who asked him to cross was Jeanne.
- He was shot, crossing the river.
Well, he might not remember the circumstances of his death that well. That one ghost kid didn't, after all, and he didn't have hundreds of years of confinement to drive him insane. Yep, and if you're swimming freestyle, which it looked like he was, and someone is shooting an arrow at you from practically straight above that arrow is going to hit you in the back. Depending on how the soul trapping mechanism works his experience may have been one second I'm swimming along happy to be reunited with the love of my life, the next I'm trapped in an etheric prison with no means of escape and no idea how I got here. It is possible he doesn't even know he's dead. |
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Post by Per on Sept 9, 2016 23:10:10 GMT
Note that Anwyn is a family name, not a term for elves generally. This is sacred Gunniverse lore folks |
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Post by warrl on Sept 10, 2016 5:48:24 GMT
Also, the thought just occured to me: was the whole creation-of-Jeanne thing only a conspiricy of the court? Could the forest have been in on it, too? The court knew elf-guy would turn up down there, and even knew roughly what time he was going to appear, which suggests to me something got pre-arranged. And since Coyote apparently made the divide, he wouldn't be averse to more barriers being put up; Jeanne attacks court and forest indiscriminately, so it's just as much protection for them as it is for the court. Remember, the only way Jeanne had to communicate with loverboy was to have Steadman wrap a note around an arrow and fire it across the chasm... but he could unwrap and read them first, maybe even have new notes written with slightly-different content. |
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Post by atteSmythe on Sept 10, 2016 14:15:09 GMT
Remember, the only way Jeanne had to communicate with loverboy was to have Steadman wrap a note around an arrow and fire it across the chasm... but he could unwrap and read them first, maybe even have new notes written with slightly-different content. That's why all serious star-crossed lovers use a one-time pad. |
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Post by snowflake on Sept 10, 2016 17:26:21 GMT
Regarding Jeanne crossing the river to get to Annie: is there any possible explanation that isn't based on there being something special about Annie?
Jeanne may be a rageghost, but some remnant of the real her is still in there somewhere. She can't reach out to those who would help her except by "pretending" to attack them, and that is what she does. She chose Parley for being like her, and for being with Annie. But why did she choose Annie? Ankou hinted that it is Annie's destiny to be an afterlife guide, and that she is drawn to Jeanne for reasons beyond reason. Does Annie have some kind of yet-unknown claim to Jeanne, beyond that of other psychopomps? Could Annie merely by being in Jeanne's general vicinity loosen her connection to the river bank to the point that she was able to cross the water to Annie?
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Post by eyemyself on Sept 10, 2016 18:34:24 GMT
Regarding Jeanne crossing the river to get to Annie: is there any possible explanation that isn't based on there being something special about Annie? Jeanne may be a rageghost, but some remnant of the real her is still in there somewhere. She can't reach out to those who would help her except by "pretending" to attack them, and that is what she does. She chose Parley for being like her, and for being with Annie. But why did she choose Annie? Ankou hinted that it is Annie's destiny to be an afterlife guide, and that she is drawn to Jeanne for reasons beyond reason. Does Annie have some kind of yet-unknown claim to Jeanne, beyond that of other psychopomps? Could Annie merely by being in Jeanne's general vicinity loosen her connection to the river bank to the point that she was able to cross the water to Annie? There is a lot we don't know about Annie's power yet. She seems to have gotten the Afterlife Guide skill from her mother in addition to the fire elemental lineage but we don't know if those two things are usually inherently linked or if somewhere down their mutual ancestry there is a Psychopomp as well as a fire elemental and we don't know anything at all about Anthony's history and what Annie might have inherited from his side of the family other than that whatever it is it probably isn't etheric. (She does not seem to share his innate inclination towards academic studies, particularly science, despite sharing his taciturn temperament.) That is all to say I think there is something to your theory that Jeanne was able to cross the river BECAUSE Annie was there and there is something special about Annie that made that possible. |
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Post by Eversist on Sept 10, 2016 22:20:36 GMT
Note that Anwyn is a family name, not a term for elves generally. This is sacred Gunniverse lore folks Meh. You know what I'm/we're talking about. Rather say that than "tree elves" or "green people." |
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Post by warrl on Sept 10, 2016 23:51:10 GMT
Regarding Jeanne crossing the river to get to Annie: is there any possible explanation that isn't based on there being something special about Annie? Sure, no problem. Annie was, at that time, definitely of the Court - just like the overwhelming majority of the other students (arguably) outside of that one House. And yet, she was on the Forest side of the river, and was not being treated as an intruder by the Forest natives whom she encountered there. It was apparently okay for the Court to be on that side - the Court's territory was, at least temporarily, extended. So Jeanne could cross the river while remaining in Court territory. She might have crossed with the intent of driving out or killing the fairies Annie was talking with. But... when she got there, she realized it was also Forest territory, and the fairies belonged there. She was confused, and Annie was the center of that confusion. When something confuses you, you study it and poke at it. When you're a rageghost with a sword, you poke at it with your sword. |
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