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Post by lurker on May 18, 2010 1:55:22 GMT
[...]I think that whatever Jones is, it's something weirder then an android. Just a feeling. I also have a feeling that she's older then she looks. She is definitely older than she looks, if even Rey and Coyote himself can't answer the question of what she is. She may very well be a being of the same calibre as Coyote for all we know.
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Post by todd on May 19, 2010 0:35:53 GMT
Jones pushed things between Parley and Smith in Chapter Twenty-three as a subtle way of sabotaging Annie's competition, ensuring that her two rivals for the mediumship will be too disoriented by their confused feelings with each other to concentrate on their studies - while Annie, who has been the most focused on the Court, the Wood, and their mysteries even before the incident, can continue to move forward and learn.
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Post by warrl on May 19, 2010 23:09:42 GMT
Jones pushed things between Parley and Smith in Chapter Twenty-three as a subtle way of sabotaging Annie's competition, ensuring that her two rivals for the mediumship will be too disoriented by their confused feelings with each other to concentrate on their studies I hardly think any intervention was needed to make THAT happen. In fact it was rather obviously already happening. Jones might have intended to push them into FACING their feelings a little sooner than they otherwise might have. If it worked it would result in their being less confused and more able to concentrate. Parley is correct (for the wrong reasons) that, of the three of them, Carver is the one best suited to be the medium. She is able to be up front, dragging people around, when that is called for - which Smith would find very difficult. She is also able to work subtly in the background, to make things happen without being seen to act - which Parley would be really lousy at. That said, it is NOT a waste to give Parley and Smith the training. For one thing, I'm sure that at least sometimes a medium could use some good support staff.
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Post by todd on May 21, 2010 11:02:04 GMT
When the Founders removed all records of Jeanne after murdering her, they didn't just rewrite the history books. They used some etheric procedure to erase her from everyone's memories, except their own, and those of the robots. The procedure was powerful enough to affect even the Guides, which is why they don't know anything about Jeanne other than her being a lost soul beyond their help, and why Muut considers it so important that Annie had learned her name.
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Post by Mr Pitchfork on May 21, 2010 19:22:41 GMT
I think it's safe to say that Jeanne can't be guided by any normal jurisdiction for the same reasons that Surma couldn't. Surma also mentioned that she is etherically useless in the chapter where Annie helps the boy into the afterlife. I'm guessing that the arrow is some sort of Etheric Neutralizer Device (I'll refer to the arrow as the ENDer until I don't) because of what we know about Surma's situation. There is certainly an obvious parallel between Surma's and Jeanne's deaths.
I forgot my greater point in the middle of writing, because I stopped midway for a while. Oh well, it's a thought.
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Post by La Goon on May 24, 2010 8:41:30 GMT
If Zimmy is comparable to the ether station then maybe Jack is comparable to a battery. During the event in "Power station" he got charged with corrupted etheric energy which he has now learned to use, but at some point he'll run out.
Maybe he has figured this out himself, and he doesn't want Zimmy to help him out of his condition but to get recharged.
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Post by warrl on May 26, 2010 18:06:36 GMT
The manner in which the founders killed Jeanne (not just by an arrow, something Diego did with that specific arrow) tied her spirit to the physical world so her death did not register with the psychopomps. Even when they were down in the chasm for some other reason, she was unavailable to them and therefore not worth interrupting their busy day - until they realized she had been there a very long time indeed. By then, she had forgotten her name and everyone in the Court who knew her was already dead.
I don't know why it hasn't occurred to the psychopomps to ask Reynard, Coyote, or Ysengrim about her.
Or Annie, for that matter. Reynardine was somewhat evasive about Jeanne and Diego, but Annie never (on screen anyway) directly asked him if HE knew Jeanne. In fact, one of Annie's most common oversights is the matter of just how old Reynardine is and how much of the Court's history he might know from either seeing it himself or talking with people who saw it happen.
(I can more readily forgive her not questioning Coyote - he tends to railroad the conversation. And she hasn't had many opportunities to converse with Ysengrim when not aboard Coyote's train of thought.)
Much later in the comic, Annie will etherically go down into the chasm, and Jeanne will attack her again. Annie will draw Coyote's Tooth and defeat Jeanne, then pull out (or otherwise destroy) the arrow and escort Jeanne to her proper place.
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Post by todd on May 27, 2010 12:57:12 GMT
An odd thought about who might be really running the Court. We know that Diego's dead (and I think it would weaken the final scene in the Chapter Twenty-five flashback if he was still alive), but do we know for certain that the other Founders, such as Sir Young or Steadman, have also passed on?
What if they faked their deaths (Diego, maybe burdened by his guilt, turned down the opportunity in this hypothesis) and found some etheric means of continuing on in secret - but having to hide themselves from the Court so that everyone would believe them dead, secretly communicating their wishes to the administration? (Maybe the old "consciousness uploaded in a computer" concept.) They have the Headmaster serve as the head of state to conceal their survival, but continue directing everything that goes on at the Court.
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Post by dawngazer on May 28, 2010 19:12:21 GMT
I honestly think Coyote means what he says about the Court and its...People. Rulers or otherwise. But that can imply so many things. How many stories have you read about people attempting to be like Gods, and have heard that exact same phrase? Bad jo-jo eh?
Regardless- I think this is a otherwise amazing series by a very smart author that knows how to keep his audience guessing without leaving us totally in the dark.
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Post by judgedeadd on May 29, 2010 7:12:26 GMT
Based on conclusions from the " Jones: The Facts" thread, I hereby speculate what follows: Jones was human once, but some accident almost killed her/actually killed her, and she had to get an entire artificial body made for her to survive. This would explain why she was around and friends with young Eglamore in "Ties".
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Post by fatexx544 on Jun 1, 2010 2:38:08 GMT
I haven't fully checked all the threads to see if this has been proposed before, but I think Jones might be Jeanne's body (Jeanne = french Jones). It could easily make sense (though that doesn't make it true, nor does it explain why Jone's wouldn't remember her former self). As a quick example of a similarity, see Jones's careless mention of Dr. Disaster's love here and Jeanne's dislike of Diego's love here (continued onto next page). Jones also has a similar build and hair color. I believe Diego separated her body from her soul, effectively turning into a kind of robot.
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Post by Casey on Jun 1, 2010 2:43:07 GMT
It's been suggested many times, but there's no harm in repeating it if you didn't know.
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Post by La Goon on Jun 2, 2010 7:56:50 GMT
When Zimmy 'forgets who she is' it's because she has sucked another persons mind into her own head (along with the etheric energy she's constantly collecting). Apparently neither Zimmy nor Gamma suspects this, so the 'victims' probably don't have any memories about it (otherwise they would have tried to get an explanation from Zimmy and that way given the girls a clue what was going on). This is because Zimmy only receives a copy of the persons mind. After a while the copied mind gets suppressed and eventually becomes a Nobody.
Edit: No wait, for that theory to work Zimmy would have to had been under the illusion that she was Kat in the start of the event in "Power Station". Hmm, maybe only copies of minds from people with certain etheric traits get to overlap Zimmys mind for a while, and the rest of them goes directly to the 'nobodyfication'. Yeah, that would work.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jun 2, 2010 22:13:52 GMT
Way back in ch 19, after coming back from Zim City for the first time, Jack realized that something was wrong with his head and he went to the Court staff to get medical help. As soon as he was cured, Jones pulled him aside and asked for his help running a little test: a test to see how well Jones' prize Medium candidate would react to a classmate who isn't right in the head, and how well the Court's security could handle a rogue student. (Jones also figured she might use the opportunity to learn something about the experiments in the power station.) In other words, Jack's been faking his condition ever since he reappeared in ch 23. Today's page is the final part of Annie's portion of the test--Jones had Randy rig up a portable version of his holographic machine in order to run a simulation of a Zimmy freakout. And that ether-spider on Jack's face? He's always had that. It's harmless.
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Post by Casey on Jun 2, 2010 22:24:34 GMT
And the flying?
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jun 3, 2010 0:48:13 GMT
Considering that one of his classmates can talk to animals and another one is on a first-name basis with multiple mythologies' personifications of death, Jack being able to fly doesn't strike me as something that needs an explanation.
And if he doesn't have an innate ability to fly, then Jones must have given him a discreet personal hovering device. Where did the Court get such a device? They reverse-engineered it from Kat's hovercraft. I believe Tom said that the Court confiscated it after she rescued Annie from the Annan gorge.
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mariposa
Full Member
Hi, I'm Elise!
Posts: 149
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Post by mariposa on Jun 3, 2010 2:31:48 GMT
except on formspring tom said the spider isn't very nice
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Post by Casey on Jun 3, 2010 3:50:29 GMT
plus it would be surprising if the Court security staff, who wouldn't be "in on" the test in the hypothetical you suggested, would never have heard of a flying student or a personal levitation device if one had existed.
(I have a real bad headache tonight and I'm not at all entirely sure I typed this correctly...)
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Post by todd on Jun 3, 2010 11:06:24 GMT
Though if the whole thing was a test, I don't think that Reynardine would be too thrilled with it (I don't think he'd have been in on it; for one thing, he would have not been able to conceal that from Annie for long). Not to mention that it'd be even tougher on the guard robot - done in by a conspiracy rather than by a delinquent student (though I'm afraid that the Court is probably capable of such treatment towards its robots).
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Post by La Goon on Jun 5, 2010 16:54:36 GMT
We know that it's possible to make a computer with etheric components. Someone could in a similar fashion have made a holographic simulation projector with some extra functions such as hacking into Zimmy's mind (or probably anyone's, but in this case Zimmy's) and create a simulation of Zimmingham. Other extra features of this system could be projecting the simulation directly into someone's mind, thus bypassing the need for a 'display room' and the ability to communicate telepathically with Gamma (who is part of the simulation). As it's based on information from Zimmy's mind, anyone who enters the simulation will perceive it from her point of view.
My best guess for who could do something like that would be the 'gold buttons'. Probably a division of them with a higher level of secrecy than the rest. The simulation would be one of their ways of examining Zimmys condition.
I guess the greatest obstacle to this theory is "Why on Earth would they think it would be a good idea to project the simulation into Antimony's head all of a sudden?". I may get a good idea for that if I think a bit more...
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Post by Dvandaemon on Jun 7, 2010 2:43:41 GMT
The Ether Station collects ether by evaporation. Rain evaporates on Zimmy. What would happen if she jumped in the lake? Others have mentioned the possibility of ether drained water. Just a thought
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Post by La Goon on Jun 7, 2010 16:43:42 GMT
Basically an modification of some of my earlier speculation: During the first Zimmingham event, when Zimmy notices that Annie is also there, she declares that this was a big one. I think the differences between that event and this one may derive from this not being a 'big one'. 'Big ones' has the ability to draw in other people's etheric selves. Perhaps 'smaller ones' may draw a print of someone's mind and memories into Zimmingham but leave the true etheric self where it is. This 'print' wouldn't be a sentient being in its own right but rather become a nobody, or perhaps in some instances plaster itself over Zimmys mind for a while, until she manages to break it down and remember herself again. This it what I propose have happened with a 'print' of Annie's mind. Because her etheric self is left behind outside Zimmingham her scar isn't visible. Perhaps, if Annie's 'mind print' becomes aware of the situation before Zimmy has broken it down completely, it will be able to break free and merge back into Annie's real mind, bringing the memories from its visit. If this turns out to be the case I guess it won't happen before it has learned something valuable that Annie can use in the present situation.
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Post by violet on Jun 7, 2010 17:06:21 GMT
The Ether Station collects ether by evaporation. Rain evaporates on Zimmy. What would happen if she jumped in the lake? Others have mentioned the possibility of ether drained water. Just a thought I suspect rain helps because it's rain. It's part of the cycle of making plants grow and making rivers flow and oceans happen and whatnot, giving it cleaning etheric properties that things like showers and fake rain and whatnot don't have.
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Post by dicesr on Jun 7, 2010 22:29:03 GMT
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Post by Rex on Jun 9, 2010 10:23:29 GMT
I just wanted to lay out what I've gathered so far, thanks to this last page's interactions (and the implications of some of the dialogue). For the sake of this excercise, let's assume all the parties involved are the real deal. Annie:- Sees Gamma - Sees Zimmy - Sees Jack - Like before with Nobody Kat, she could not tell what was a real person and what was a nobody Gamma:- Sees Annie as Zimmy - Sees Jack as Nobody - Sees Zimmy as a (Gotta wait until Friday before her observations on Zimmy) Zimmy:- Sees Annie as something to flee from (don't know if this also includes Gamma, but her reaction seems to hint at it) - Sees Gamma as (see above) - Sees Jack as the last time she saw him on that rooftop, and perceives him to be real to the point of hanging with him (sitting on the steps) before Annie & Gamma arrive Jack:- All parties involved look real to him - By Gamma's analysis, he's a nobody - Has seen Zimmy glop nobodies - Has been through a similar conversation with Zimmy about the nobodies as Annie had back when she had her take up glopping duty. Of course you can see tons of things don't add up. With this being the wild speculation thread and all, this situation almost seems like there's been a mindswap between Annie and Zimmy, with both perceiving things as they normally would. This would explain a number of things. Gamma's insistence that Annie is Zimmy (and that this identity issue has happened before), Zimmy being horrified at whatever Annie and Gamma look like to her while also being able to glop nobodies. Annie in Zimmy's body would suffer from what ails Zimmy and at the same time Zimmy in Annie's body can do what Annie does and doesn't require Gamma. Edit: Ah, and one thing that came to mind just now. What if in addition to this bizarre swap a far more frightening situation was occurring. If nobodies like Kat and Jack appear based on someone's desire to see/find someone than it follows that a desperate Zimmy would want Gamma, and Annie is looking for Jack. So it'd make the only real people in this quartet Annie and Zimmy.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 9, 2010 10:56:10 GMT
Or if nobodies can also conjure nobodies: - Annie wanted to find Jack. - Jack wanted to find Zimmie. - Zimmie always wants to be with Gamma.
So perhaps nobody's real other than Annie, and all three of the others are conjured up.
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Post by rosesablaze on Jun 9, 2010 17:14:51 GMT
Maybe the Annie we're seeing now is actually Zimmy like Gamma thinks she is? Narration trick?
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Post by Rex on Jun 9, 2010 18:58:00 GMT
Or if nobodies can also conjure nobodies: - Annie wanted to find Jack. - Jack wanted to find Zimmie. - Zimmie always wants to be with Gamma. So perhaps nobody's real other than Annie, and all three of the others are conjured up. Oh boy, talk about a frightening proposition. Annie will be spooked to death by the time she realizes something like either one of these situations is happening to her.
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whosit
Full Member
So totally a self-portrait.
Posts: 105
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Post by whosit on Jun 11, 2010 22:38:05 GMT
The Spider is actually the Head-Master!
Zimmy is a robot! Eglamore is a robot! Jones is an armadillo!
Robot souls stink of petrol and ozone... that's why the psychopomps don't mess with them.
Coyote is the father of Paz! Ysengrin loves processed cheese! The seed of bismuth was/is actually a platypus!
Talking cow reproduces by budding! Human parents thrilled! Oh... wait. Not applicable. Never mind.
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Post by todd on Jun 11, 2010 22:56:16 GMT
Zimmy is a gender-bent version of Tom. (Both live - or used to live - in Birmingham and are convinced that they will never be able to escape it, and Tom's self-portraits look rather Zimmyish.)
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