|
Post by dramastix on May 23, 2019 5:03:59 GMT
[...] and really it's going to take the death of an etherically-connected being for the idea of Kat the Angel Creator to really start to take shape. Like, say, Arthur (although I hope not), or some other newly-embodied robots who are subsequently killed while believing in her. You mean, besides LoveBoat that, died by Her Divine Wrath, while believing in Its Creator? Ohhhhhhhhhh good point. I wonder if the LoveBoat counted? Was the boat truly alive in the way that matters, even for that short period? At the end, the Boat still had a CPU, which Arthur will not, but we also caught a glimpse of the Angel at the end of that. It's also unclear how many people need to be absorbed into the ether before a being as powerful as Coyote can emerge. Was the single man in the desert enough, or did it build up over time? My inclination is that it would have been the latter, which means we'll need more than just the Boat for the Angel to stick around, rather than fading when the etheric distortion fades.
|
|
|
Post by jda on May 23, 2019 7:16:47 GMT
Ohhhhhhhhhh good point. I wonder if the LoveBoat counted? Was the boat truly alive in the way that matters, even for that short period? At the end, the Boat still had a CPU, which Arthur will not, but we also caught a glimpse of the Angel at the end of that. It's also unclear how many people need to be absorbed into the ether before a being as powerful as Coyote can emerge. Was the single man in the desert enough, or did it build up over time? My inclination is that it would have been the latter, which means we'll need more than just the Boat for the Angel to stick around, rather than fading when the etheric distortion fades. Time shenanigans, my friend. Would Coyote claim that Goddess Kat was created by the thought of robots, even the ones that predate robots? " Can something exists before it is created?"
|
|
|
Post by pyradonis on May 23, 2019 11:19:18 GMT
Ohhhhhhhhhh good point. I wonder if the LoveBoat counted? Was the boat truly alive in the way that matters, even for that short period? At the end, the Boat still had a CPU, which Arthur will not, but we also caught a glimpse of the Angel at the end of that. It's also unclear how many people need to be absorbed into the ether before a being as powerful as Coyote can emerge. Was the single man in the desert enough, or did it build up over time? My inclination is that it would have been the latter, which means we'll need more than just the Boat for the Angel to stick around, rather than fading when the etheric distortion fades. Yes, I also think it is the latter. Otherwise every monster that everyone ever saw in the shadows of the night would exist, and the world would be a horror movie every night.
|
|
|
Post by jda on May 23, 2019 17:16:48 GMT
Ohhhhhhhhhh good point. I wonder if the LoveBoat counted? Was the boat truly alive in the way that matters, even for that short period? At the end, the Boat still had a CPU, which Arthur will not, but we also caught a glimpse of the Angel at the end of that. It's also unclear how many people need to be absorbed into the ether before a being as powerful as Coyote can emerge. Was the single man in the desert enough, or did it build up over time? My inclination is that it would have been the latter, which means we'll need more than just the Boat for the Angel to stick around, rather than fading when the etheric distortion fades. Yes, I also think it is the latter. Otherwise every monster that everyone ever saw in the shadows of the night would exists, and the world would be a horror movie every night. Who says it isn't in GKC Universe?
|
|
|
Post by dramastix on May 24, 2019 6:55:42 GMT
Ohhhhhhhhhh good point. I wonder if the LoveBoat counted? Was the boat truly alive in the way that matters, even for that short period? At the end, the Boat still had a CPU, which Arthur will not, but we also caught a glimpse of the Angel at the end of that. It's also unclear how many people need to be absorbed into the ether before a being as powerful as Coyote can emerge. Was the single man in the desert enough, or did it build up over time? My inclination is that it would have been the latter, which means we'll need more than just the Boat for the Angel to stick around, rather than fading when the etheric distortion fades. Time shenanigans, my friend. Would Coyote claim that Goddess Kat was created by the thought of robots, even the ones that predate robots? " Can something exists before it is created?" Bah!! Damn you, Tom, and your timey wimey shenanigans. But maybe we're seeing the world sort of halfway as The Angel is being created, so we both see the effects of Her existence (such as, as has been speculated, the Tic Tocs), and the events that lead to Her creation. And once She exists, everyone is going to realize She has always existed. Or something.
|
|
|
Post by madjack on May 24, 2019 7:34:16 GMT
This idea coming just in: The thing that just appeared on page 2147 is a demon or similar mythological being Diego made a contract with to gain the ability of creating golem hearts and thus quasi-sentient robots. If Kat wants to take it to the next level, the being will demand she negotiates a "New Contract" with it. New theory: ^This is correct and the being that they're talking to isn't an arbiter or any kind of authority at all but is the creature who bestowed the ability to create the hearts and arrow and is now trying to cover their tracks because they never expected the thing to be unlocked and retrieved.
|
|
|
Post by pyradonis on May 24, 2019 13:13:08 GMT
Yes, I also think it is the latter. Otherwise every monster that everyone ever saw in the shadows of the night would exists, and the world would be a horror movie every night. Who says it isn't in GKC Universe? I think we would have learned about this after 2152 pages. It might be true for Zimmy's personal fears and demons, though.
|
|
|
Post by todd on May 25, 2019 0:07:12 GMT
Who says it isn't in GKC Universe? I think we would have learned about this after 2152 pages. It might be true for Zimmy's personal fears and demons, though. Jones hinted that that could become the consequence of the Court's experiments (though I doubt that is the Court's intention).
|
|
|
Post by pyradonis on May 25, 2019 9:54:34 GMT
I think we would have learned about this after 2152 pages. It might be true for Zimmy's personal fears and demons, though. Jones hinted that that could become the consequence of the Court's experiments (though I doubt that is the Court's intention). Could you please point me to the page where she did?
|
|
|
Post by todd on May 25, 2019 12:44:35 GMT
Could you please point me to the page where she did? It turned out that I'd misremembered it and that she hadn't actually connected that possibility to the Court's experiments, but I was thinking of this page: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1125
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on May 25, 2019 13:31:24 GMT
|
|
|
Post by todd on May 26, 2019 0:08:38 GMT
With all that talk about the dangerous potential of humans controlling the ether - maybe Loup and the other forest-folk hostile to the Court have a point.
Though I don't see the Court as pursuing its research in order to exploit the ether - I think it's just studying it out of curiosity (or an insistence on being able to codify it into an exact science that can fit its world-view, rather than as simply "magic" - but that it might wind up causing trouble with that study without intending it (the way Kat's experiments with Diego's arrow have started causing trouble without her intending it). It's more obliviousness to the consequences of their actions, I think, than malevolent motives.
|
|
|
Post by netherdan on May 26, 2019 1:08:11 GMT
With all that talk about the dangerous potential of humans controlling the ether - maybe Loup and the other forest-folk hostile to the Court have a point. Though I don't see the Court as pursuing its research in order to exploit the ether - I think it's just studying it out of curiosity (or an insistence on being able to codify it into an exact science that can fit its world-view, rather than as simply "magic" - but that it might wind up causing trouble with that study without intending it (the way Kat's experiments with Diego's arrow have started causing trouble without her intending it). It's more obliviousness to the consequences of their actions, I think, than malevolent motives. Maybe if you explain it, it will cease to exist? I mean, there's this Court project that Coyote himself can't get a grasp of what it is because the closer he gets the less he can see it. Maybe explaining the ether, taking the magic out of it and turning it into science will destroy it (either directly or by turning it into a resource to be explored and depleted).
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on May 26, 2019 2:57:48 GMT
Ohhhhhhhhhh good point. I wonder if the LoveBoat counted? Was the boat truly alive in the way that matters, even for that short period? At the end, the Boat still had a CPU, which Arthur will not, but we also caught a glimpse of the Angel at the end of that. It's also unclear how many people need to be absorbed into the ether before a being as powerful as Coyote can emerge. Was the single man in the desert enough, or did it build up over time? My inclination is that it would have been the latter, which means we'll need more than just the Boat for the Angel to stick around, rather than fading when the etheric distortion fades. Perhaps the power of the god is proportional to the number of (dead) believers. So the first man in the desert started a proto-god, still embryonic and weak, but as the number of deceased believers grows.... eventually you get a Coyote-powered entity. A bit Terry Pratchett-esque.... [e.g., Small Gods]
|
|
|
Post by todd on May 26, 2019 12:36:45 GMT
Maybe if you explain it, it will cease to exist? That's what I'd suspected - magic explained ceases to be magic and becomes just another piece of science. I wonder, from this, whether "Gunnerkrigg Court" will end with a "death of magic" (like many fantasy sagas such as "The Lord of the Rings" and the Chronicles of Prydain), or whether something will halt the Court's experiments before it reaches that point.
|
|
|
Post by pyradonis on May 26, 2019 13:10:56 GMT
Maybe if you explain it, it will cease to exist? That's what I'd suspected - magic explained ceases to be magic and becomes just another piece of science. I wonder, from this, whether "Gunnerkrigg Court" will end with a "death of magic" (like many fantasy sagas such as "The Lord of the Rings" and the Chronicles of Prydain), or whether something will halt the Court's experiments before it reaches that point. Mmh, I do not think so. To many people over time, magic and alchemy were just other sciences besides the natural ones. I think GKC follows that.
|
|
|
Post by Runningflame on May 31, 2019 18:53:16 GMT
Thinking about what " shifted" might mean: I don't think it's "shifted in time" (i.e. Court!Annie is Forest!Annie's future self or vice versa). First, that would have to involve a lot of memory rewriting to make the timeline flow seamlessly from both Annies' perspective. Second, the two Annies don't look that much different, which I think they would if one was (physically) a year or two older than the other. My guess is that "shifted" means "moved into this universe/timeline from a parallel universe/timeline." Which means that there's a different universe--which must look pretty similar to the one we're familiar with--that now has no Annie, because Loup "borrowed" her for this universe. I expect the other universe's Kat is pretty frantic by now.
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Jun 2, 2019 0:18:38 GMT
Maybe not super wild, but: I think Diego's arrow is some sort of etheric contract-of-ownership sponge; it grabs part (or full) ownership of whatever it enters, or whatever passes though it. When it hit the Green Guy, it took at least part ownership of him, so that Jeanne (due to her love for GG) couldn't leave his side by the riverbank until he was freed of his bondage by Annie. When Kat transferred ownership of Rey back to Annie thru the arrow, it (unbeknownst to them) took part ownership of the toy (and thus Rey with it). Saslamel was OK with that, tho, because contract-wise, it was ownership of the TOY, an OBJECT, not sentient being Rey (who could in principle leave the toy). But when Kat transferred Arthur's mind thru the arrow, she was (unbeknownst to her) letting the arrow take part ownership of a mind. Etheric ownership-of-mind violation! She was also triggering a dual-use of the contract, since the copied contract had already been used in the Rey/toy exchange. A bit more speculatively, the flow of Arthur's mind through the arrow to Arthur's new body picked up some/all of the ownership of Rey that was held by the arrow and conferred it to Arthur. Maybe the arrow's ownership sponge can only hold one ownership at a time, the most recent input. First GG, freed by Annie. Next, Rey/toy. Next Arthur's mind, ownership of Rey/toy now passed on by the "transfer flow" to the transfer target, Atthur's new body. Maybe?
(This is a modified, cleaned-up version of a speculation posted in [2155].)
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Jun 2, 2019 0:30:35 GMT
Thinking about what " shifted" might mean: I don't think it's "shifted in time" (i.e. Court!Annie is Forest!Annie's future self or vice versa). First, that would have to involve a lot of memory rewriting to make the timeline flow seamlessly from both Annies' perspective. Second, the two Annies don't look that much different, which I think they would if one was (physically) a year or two older than the other. My guess is that "shifted" means "moved into this universe/timeline from a parallel universe/timeline." Which means that there's a different universe--which must look pretty similar to the one we're familiar with--that now has no Annie, because Loup "borrowed" her for this universe. I expect the other universe's Kat is pretty frantic by now. could just be a time fork... Loup split's Annie's timeline in two. One Annie goes back to the Court, one stays in the Forest for a while and suffers a time lag of ~6 months because time is frozen in the Forest. So Saslamel says she's (time) shifted... both are Annie, on different, tho merged now, timelines, fAnnie 6 months younger due to Forest time freeze.
|
|
|
Post by dimute on Jun 4, 2019 0:07:08 GMT
The bone and the water contain: a) the as mentioned power that loup would definitely want, hence he is after it, and b) the memory of the dead goose story, in other words, it will remind coyote that he is still himself and a god. they will split and go back to being two again.
Coyote just did this for the lulz and to see what would happen, this was his failsafe.
|
|
|
Post by MarineMonarch on Jun 4, 2019 7:47:03 GMT
You know, I've wondered why Kat thought Paz's love letter was from Bobby a few times, and I think I've found at least a pretty good answer. The letter is noted as being particularly eloquent by Annie, but is also printed in blocky font on printing paper, indicating it came from a robot. Most robots in the court have rather childish or comedic dialogue, even Robot initially, but Bobby has a distinctly formal, polite way of speaking that may have influenced the way he wrote Paz's letter. We know that Kat spent some time helping Paz at her animal facility, so perhaps Kat recognised his style from then?
|
|
|
Post by madjack on Jun 4, 2019 9:46:22 GMT
Stepping back from the contract minutiae and looking at the meta picture, this feels like one of those times that Tom is laying groundwork while trying to hold on to his cards. A couple of thoughts grew out of that:
One, the fact that object style rules can be imposed on living beings, coupled with consciousness transfer could go some way to explaining the fusion of a fire elemental and a human being.
Two, the very process they're in the middle of haggling out could explain the long running theory that Kat is an artificial human; Vat grown body cloned from both her parents with an artificial consciousness. She might even have been an actual robot, even.
|
|
|
Post by netherdan on Jun 4, 2019 13:24:45 GMT
Two, the very process they're in the middle of haggling out could explain the long running theory that Kat is an artificial human; Vat grown body cloned from both her parents with an artificial consciousness. She might even have been an actual robot, even. It is in my head canon that Kat is Anja's computer
|
|
|
Post by netherdan on Jun 12, 2019 18:09:51 GMT
This is what Saslamel's voice sounds like:
|
|
|
Post by madjack on Jun 14, 2019 7:16:52 GMT
Obligatory based-on-today's-page Omega project wildspec: It creates entire (virtual?) alternate realities just to see how they play out.
|
|
|
Post by jda on Jun 14, 2019 7:25:30 GMT
Obligatory based-on-today's-page Omega project wildspec: It creates entire (virtual?) alternate realities just to see how they play out. Alterate-alternate Omega project wildspec: Trough things like the Lake Power Station, ether can be extracted and sent to alternate dimensions, being used as energy power source, etc, or for magic shenanigans, alá (ANCIENT SPOILER) Full Metal Alchemist's last chapters revelation of the use of human lives of alternate Earths as power source for Alchemical powers "here". So, either the Court tries to harness the power of alternate realities Ether... Or, someone (aternate's Court?) is sapping GKC'S ETHER to feed another dimension.
|
|
|
Post by Druplesnubb on Jun 14, 2019 9:20:57 GMT
Obligatory based-on-today's-page Omega project wildspec: It creates entire (virtual?) alternate realities just to see how they play out. Alterate-alternate Omega project wildspec: Trough things like the Lake Power Station, ether can be extracted and sent to alternate dimensions, being used as energy power source, etc, or for magic shenanigans, alá (ANCIENT SPOILER) Full Metal Alchemist's last chapters revelation of the use of human lives of alternate Earths as power source for Alchemical powers "here". So, either the Court tries to harness the power of alternate realities Ether... Or, someone (aternate's Court?) is sapping GKC'S ETHER to feed another dimension. Last episode, not last chapter. That was in the 2003 tv series that diverged heavily from the original comic.
|
|
|
Post by Corvo on Jun 14, 2019 11:32:58 GMT
After today's reveal, they'll all say something like "well, that's messed up" and move on with their lifes, the other dimention never to be heard of again.
Nahh, just kidding! They'll try to take Annie back, only to discover Loup has already made this the master branch and deleted the old one. I mean, who needs two versions of the same thing, right?!
|
|
|
Post by Runningflame on Jun 14, 2019 20:46:34 GMT
Thinking about what " shifted" might mean: I don't think it's "shifted in time" (i.e. Court!Annie is Forest!Annie's future self or vice versa). First, that would have to involve a lot of memory rewriting to make the timeline flow seamlessly from both Annies' perspective. Second, the two Annies don't look that much different, which I think they would if one was (physically) a year or two older than the other. My guess is that "shifted" means "moved into this universe/timeline from a parallel universe/timeline." Which means that there's a different universe--which must look pretty similar to the one we're familiar with--that now has no Annie, because Loup "borrowed" her for this universe. I expect the other universe's Kat is pretty frantic by now. So, I think I get cookies for this; but because I didn't arrive at this conclusion until after the "shifted" comment, contractual law stipulates I have to give 80% of them to Clippy.
|
|
|
Post by jda on Jun 14, 2019 23:23:20 GMT
For everyone counting the Checkov guns still loaded, please add the not-read-EULA contract and Clippy's smile-o-fangs
|
|