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Post by mturtle7 on Aug 19, 2023 21:10:00 GMT
Putting it another way... Jones existence doesn't seem to be a natural occurrence. She was either intentionally put at the beginning of times, or "retconned" into existence by the humanity's power over ether via stories and myths.But in this comic there doesn't seem to be any kind of belief/ religion/ myth which would shape Jones into some kind of avatar of non-ether Earth or something. The case where we anticipate the apotheosis of a new myth/ god is Kat, because we're seeing the plot converging towards it. There's no indication of that around Jones.
Therefore she must have been sent to the past. Who could have the power to create a being like that and put it there? Who has the story shown, until now, to be able to design something that advanced AND to be able to meddle in time? Hrrrrrrgh...ok, look. Most of your theory, I like and respect. You drew some really cool thematic parallels there, and it's not completely implausible that Kat will turn out to have been Jones' creator all along (it's *a little* out there, but hey, we have this Wild Speculation thread for a reason).
But this kind of attitude towards Jones - which I've seen a lot of fans take, over the years - really frustrates me, because it dismisses a part of GC's magic system that I've always seen as obviously canon: In the GC-Verse, werid sh*t just happens sometimes.
Take Paz, for example. As everyone knows, Paz can talk to animals. But why? How? It's not like she comes from a long line of Galician animal shamans, or is secretly the Chosen One of the Wilds, or anything like that. Nobody else in her family seems to be able to do it; there's no particular mythological basis for it that we've seen; it just kinda is, and we all nod along and say "well sure, if magic is real, then that seems plausible."
Smitty, Zimmy, and Gamma are also examples of this, I think. Again, there's no particular mythological basis for their powers that we know of, they're just people who were born with super weird, magical abilities Because Reasons - that old ' etherial tenet' that the Court hates so much!
In the same way, I think there doesn't necessarily have to be a popular mythological link to Jones for her to have been created by the Ether. An immortal, indestructible woman with no feelings who's been around since the creation of the Earth, and has chosen to observe human history from the sidelines; why does that need any more explanation than a boy who was suddenly born with the power to manipulate probability so chaos is always minimized around him?
Again, I actually like your theory! I'm not saying that there can't be a cool explanation connecting Jones' existence intot he main plot of the comic, I'm just saying that there doesn't have to be. The boring explanation for Jones is that she's just one of the many, many, etheric things in the GC universe with no (mytho)logical basis for their existence.
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Post by hp on Aug 20, 2023 0:39:28 GMT
Hrrrrrrgh...ok, look. Most of your theory, I like and respect. You drew some really cool thematic parallels there, and it's not completely implausible that Kat will turn out to have been Jones' creator all along (it's *a little* out there, but hey, we have this Wild Speculation thread for a reason).
But this kind of attitude towards Jones - which I've seen a lot of fans take, over the years - really frustrates me, because it dismisses a part of GC's magic system that I've always seen as obviously canon: In the GC-Verse, werid sh*t just happens sometimes. Take Paz, for example. As everyone knows, Paz can talk to animals. But why? How? It's not like she comes from a long line of Galician animal shamans, or is secretly the Chosen One of the Wilds, or anything like that. Nobody else in her family seems to be able to do it; there's no particular mythological basis for it that we've seen; it just kinda is, and we all nod along and say "well sure, if magic is real, then that seems plausible." Smitty, Zimmy, and Gamma are also examples of this, I think. Again, there's no particular mythological basis for their powers that we know of, they're just people who were born with super weird, magical abilities Because Reasons - that old ' etherial tenet' that the Court hates so much! In the same way, I think there doesn't necessarily have to be a popular mythological link to Jones for her to have been created by the Ether. An immortal, indestructible woman with no feelings who's been around since the creation of the Earth, and has chosen to observe human history from the sidelines; why does that need any more explanation than a boy who was suddenly born with the power to manipulate probability so chaos is always minimized around him?
Again, I actually like your theory! I'm not saying that there can't be a cool explanation connecting Jones' existence intot he main plot of the comic, I'm just saying that there doesn't have to be. The boring explanation for Jones is that she's just one of the many, many, etheric things in the GC universe with no (mytho)logical basis for their existence.
No problem, I understand and agree with you on the worldbuilding "rules" leaving space for some random weirdness. And I also think that is an awesome quirk in GC.
Despite that, even when there are ellipses and something is supposed to be left unexplained, we can infer some method to that randomness (bear with me hehehe). For instance, we've had talk about etheric beings on family trees (I think it was Coyote who once said some Court students were descendents of forest beings who chose to remain in the Court side after the rift?); the unique human connection to the ether; the immense power of humankind's stories, beliefs and myths over it; how that power sometimes shapes truly godly beings, who end up having an even more agency over both ether and the material world; etc.
That is, even though there is a lot of background weirdness that is supposed to remain a mistery, we kinda have a general sense of where it's coming from.
But then there is weirdness and WEIRDNESS hehehe. I mean, the distinctive weirdness that the story builds around as a relevant plot device.
That is not to say that Jones' weirdness is important to the plot and Paz's and Smitty's aren't — after all, they were instrumental to a lot of story advancements. But there is such a big "corner" of the plot focusing around Jones that I think we would not be wrong to expect she's being built to have some important role down the road, or at least an even more important role than she had up to now. Would she be developed almost as a Chekov Death Star only to be left unfired?
One thing is having a wild Arbiter Salasmel pop-up from nothing to advance the plot and answer questions, after a whole lot of buildup around the etheric bureaucracy, "property" relationships and the dangers of the kids' meddling away without knowing the whole picture. But if Jones and her unique set of characteristics do have a central role down the road, handwaving her as "the ether is crazy, right?" would go beyond worldbuilding quirkiness and end up being really unsatisfactory.
--BUT of course, I might be completely wrong. Maybe Jones will not be as relevant as I'm anticipating; Or maybe she will, but will anyway be treated as another ineffable product of the ether.
Even so, we simply happen to have a lot more information on her... That blows away some of the "fog of randomness" around her, her origins and her causality. And with more material I think it's natural we wildspec hehehe. Even if our subject ends up being a curveball by Siddell.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 20, 2023 1:01:29 GMT
RE: Jones, I still view her as an "oxbow lake" of ether, an existence that became necessary (therefore became manifest) when humans became inevitable. Causality exists in the GKU, and while I'm not sure if everything's ultimately ether or if ether and matter both exist or if there's a continuum between matter and ether (though I lean strongly towards the last one of those) I think we can observe in the comic that subjective experience is real, at least real in a sense. What does ether do? It flows. We know it flows in nature to some extent but it has the potential to flow through living sentient beings. I don't think it's true that Jones has no desires, because if that was true she'd be immobile, but it may be the case that she moves and speaks because humans move and speak and these actions don't stem from the same causes as for regular humans. That being the case, when humans became inevitable but did not exist I think that created an enormous potential that couldn't find an outlet, an imbalance which was rectified by a one-time etheric flow into a vaguely-human shaped rock. Why a human? Because the form of human was inevitable and the humans would be the conduit through which the greatest manifestations of ether would flow. Now if @korba were still here I think he'd argue that Jones was a requirement of the "harmony" of existence because humans created beings that predated them therefore the ether must have preexistence as a quality (if I understand what he was saying). I think he was arguing for preexisting Forms (forms with a capital F) but I don't think Jones can fulfill that role on two or three counts. Jones is an observer, and apparently has limits to what she can see and hear (and otherwise perceive) similar to those of a standard human. However Jones, as a " stone" as she puts it, does not contribute that same emotional error-prone subjectivity that creates narratives. She says she doesn't feel anything though she seems driven by curiosity to observe and learn, and apparently remembers everything she's experienced. I think that must mean her existence itself is what's necessary, not any particular thing she observes or does. Ether existed, humans became inevitable, therefore Jones, but not necessarily Jones the specific individual. It could have been a different person with similar immutability but different characteristics, though I think there's some reason to speculate that a biological human female was either necessary or more likely. Also, Jones hasn't perpetually existed like a Form (with a capital F) would, and that means something else was required for her to manifest and I think my form (lowercase F) hypothesis is stronger. There's a nine page thread on Jones if anyone wants further reading or needs to do some penance.  |
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Post by hp on Aug 20, 2023 1:03:59 GMT
In light of the recent bombastic return of Coyote ( HA!), I've been rereading key pages to figure out his plan. There are so many moving parts I find puzzling. One: if he simply wanted to experience true death, is it not in his power to maneuver events so that he is the only one killed? Why also stipulate the deaths of Loup and Ysengrin? I don't buy that they're simply collateral damage. Barring Zimmy and Renard, that's consigning the most powerful etheric beings in proximity to the Court to death. Why do this? Two: given Coyote's role in promoting the Forest's primordial chaos, and its effects on the ether, wouldn't his death significantly weaken the ether? However opaque Coyote's intentions are, I cannot imagine his goals include actively sabotaging the ether—all his actions before have been to strengthen it. There has to be something deeper to this whole death thing. In light of everything above, I think there's special significance to what he says on this page, when he asks Annie to kill Loup: "Who better a steward of death than a guide of death?" (emphasis mine) and "When it is done you will know what to do, but not how to do it" (emphasis not mine). I think it's telling he specifically signposts Annie's status as a (newly inducted) psychopomp. "What to do, but not how"? My god. It's been staring us right in the face. What if he intends to have Annie in her capacity as a psychopomp reclaim his soul and bring it back to the ether? Wouldn't that be a big infusion of ether? Has there even been a precedent for this kind of thing? Have gods ever been shepherded through death by a psychopomp? Since they're implicated, I'm also rereading stuff to figure out the psychopomps' agenda, and there are theories a-brewing. I suspect, as psychopomps are a group who both depend on the ether (being mythological beings themselves, with mythological powers) and ensure the ether's continued existence by reclaiming souls (a task they seem almost dogmatically compelled to do—just see how long and hard they kept at Jeanne), they have very good reason to stop the whole New World Pilgrimage thing (a place where people die without psychopomps to guide them through death? Unthinkable!), or barring that, to find some way to establish a foothold on the New World—about as much reason as the New World crowd has to keep psychopomps out. Their machinations to induct Annie into their ranks most definitely has something to do with it. Wouldn't be surprised if some colluding between Coyote and psychopomps took place. Will do full-blown wildspec post later. Edit: now I'm also wondering if the New People will ever be considered "real" people—real enough to warrant psychopomp services when dead. At the very least, they're considered living beings by Arbiter Saslamel. We've seen Muut state that psychopomps "do not deal in electrical appliances," but I imagine that's about to change. I mean, this has to be how Kat achieves apotheosis. We know from Coyote that death and psychopomps are how beliefs gain traction in the ether. What makes me think the whole "Coyote wants to actually die" angle is suspicious is... He's a product of human belief and an important deity in some Native American religions. Will something happen to those beliefs if its product "actually dies"? Or rather, will he ever be able to "actually die" if those beliefs in him remain?
Maybe he'll experience actually dying and after that just go on existing as always, lmao
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Post by hp on Aug 20, 2023 1:49:33 GMT
RE: Jones, I still view her as an "oxbow lake" of ether, an existence that became necessary (therefore became manifest) when humans became inevitable. Causality exists in the GKU, and while I'm not sure if everything's ultimately ether or if ether and matter both exist or if there's a continuum between matter and ether (though I lean strongly towards the last one of those) I think we can observe in the comic that subjective experience is real, at least real in a sense. What does ether do? It flows. We know it flows in nature to some extent but it has the potential to flow through living sentient beings. I don't think it's true that Jones has no desires, because if that was true she'd be immobile, but it may be the case that she moves and speaks because humans move and speak and these actions don't stem from the same causes as for regular humans. That being the case, when humans became inevitable but did not exist I think that created an enormous potential that couldn't find an outlet, an imbalance which was rectified by a one-time etheric flow into a vaguely-human shaped rock. Why a human? Because the form of human was inevitable and the humans would be the conduit through which the greatest manifestations of ether would flow. Now if @korba were still here I think he'd argue that Jones was a requirement of the "harmony" of existence because humans created beings that predated them therefore the ether must have preexistence as a quality (if I understand what he was saying). I think he was arguing for preexisting Forms (forms with a capital F) but I don't think Jones can fulfill that role on two or three counts. Jones is an observer, and apparently has limits to what she can see and hear (and otherwise perceive) similar to those of a standard human. However Jones, as a " stone" as she puts it, does not contribute that same emotional error-prone subjectivity that creates narratives. She says she doesn't feel anything though she seems driven by curiosity to observe and learn, and apparently remembers everything she's experienced. I think that must mean her existence itself is what's necessary, not any particular thing she observes or does. Ether existed, humans became inevitable, therefore Jones, but not necessarily Jones the specific individual. It could have been a different person with similar immutability but different characteristics, though I think there's some reason to speculate that a biological human female was either necessary or more likely. Also, Jones hasn't perpetually existed like a Form (with a capital F) would, and that means something else was required for her to manifest and I think my form (lowercase F) hypothesis is stronger. There's a nine page thread on Jones if anyone wants further reading or needs to do some penance. Really interesting take. What makes me reticent about "Jones manifesting from ether due to humans existence" is that, discounting appearance and some mimicked behaviours, she's so removed from the human experience.
Despite there being a lot of people not able to perceive the ether and act upon it, the plot makes a huge point about the human impact over it and their connection with it. Jones can see material manifestations of the ether such as Mort and Coyote's physical body, but she can't connect with it and doesn't have an etheric body or direct relation to it (take Smitty, he remains "grey" when antimony and the students go into the ether, but even him has his etheric "strings"). She doesn't even feel emotions.
Why would the ether´s response to the human existence be something so different to it?
****
As for the nature of the ether, I agree with your perception of continuity. Ether seems to be just another aspect of reality, like GC's version of the astral or spiritual plane.
In other occasions I have mentioned in threads on this forum how Tom's take on that "alternative layer of reality" reminds me of how Carlos Castañeda approach to the spiritual plane, how people in tune to it are capable of prodigious "superhuman" feats, how there are beings and spirits who are more in tune to it , people can learn to perceive and use it, etc.
In his books (supposedly autobiographical), he is constantly in awe of the miracles his shaman teachers perform. Then in some occasion they do something so amazing (like giant leaps, walking vertically on tree trunks, that kind of thing) that his perception is shifted and he gets a glimpse of the "true nature" of reality. He sees that people under that perception are surrounded by auras like eggs of light, with their "volition" acting as light tentacles originating from a point in their stomach area. Then he sees that the way his teacher did those prodigious feats was by using those "tentacles" to reach away and grab stuff, support themselves etc.
There are also a lot of interesting aspects of his take on the spiritual, like the concept of "personal places of power", the way some "warriors" were destined to each other as a group, the way he treats "enemies" and evil spirits, etc
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 20, 2023 2:37:36 GMT
Jones can see material manifestations of the ether such as Mort and Coyote's physical body, but she can't connect with it and doesn't have an etheric body or direct relation to it... I don't think Jones has the same ability to see into the ether as Antimony or Anja. I think she's able to see and interact with ghosts and 'pomps when they want to be seen and interact with her, exactly the same as for other humans who rely on their sense organs. The difference is that the etheric creatures view Jones with some reverence because of her age and unchanging nature so they will interact with her when they encounter her, where they wouldn't with a standard boring normal muggle except in unusual circumstances. Same goes for gods and other entities but probably for different motives. Coyote probably just found her interesting before, then she was with Antimony more recently. |
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Post by pyradonis on Aug 20, 2023 7:26:26 GMT
RE: Jones, I still view her as an "oxbow lake" of ether, an existence that became necessary (therefore became manifest) when humans became inevitable. Causality exists in the GKU, and while I'm not sure if everything's ultimately ether or if ether and matter both exist or if there's a continuum between matter and ether (though I lean strongly towards the last one of those) I think we can observe in the comic that subjective experience is real, at least real in a sense. What does ether do? It flows. We know it flows in nature to some extent but it has the potential to flow through living sentient beings. I don't think it's true that Jones has no desires, because if that was true she'd be immobile, but it may be the case that she moves and speaks because humans move and speak and these actions don't stem from the same causes as for regular humans. That being the case, when humans became inevitable but did not exist I think that created an enormous potential that couldn't find an outlet, an imbalance which was rectified by a one-time etheric flow into a vaguely-human shaped rock. Why a human? Because the form of human was inevitable and the humans would be the conduit through which the greatest manifestations of ether would flow. That's an interesting theory, though then I would have to ask why does Jones look like she does? Light skin and blonde hair are a quite recent development in human populations. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 20, 2023 10:32:39 GMT
RE: Jones, I still view her as an "oxbow lake" of ether, an existence that became necessary (therefore became manifest) when humans became inevitable. Causality exists in the GKU, and while I'm not sure if everything's ultimately ether or if ether and matter both exist or if there's a continuum between matter and ether (though I lean strongly towards the last one of those) I think we can observe in the comic that subjective experience is real, at least real in a sense. What does ether do? It flows. We know it flows in nature to some extent but it has the potential to flow through living sentient beings. I don't think it's true that Jones has no desires, because if that was true she'd be immobile, but it may be the case that she moves and speaks because humans move and speak and these actions don't stem from the same causes as for regular humans. That being the case, when humans became inevitable but did not exist I think that created an enormous potential that couldn't find an outlet, an imbalance which was rectified by a one-time etheric flow into a vaguely-human shaped rock. Why a human? Because the form of human was inevitable and the humans would be the conduit through which the greatest manifestations of ether would flow. That's an interesting theory, though then I would have to ask why does Jones look like she does? Light skin and blonde hair are a quite recent development in human populations. Well, there's a few factors that probably went into Jones' design and I suspect some of the in-universe ones dovetail with what would make for an effective and desirable character from an author's standpoint. She isn't a floating disembodied eyeball (or anything similar even though etheric means could be used to still allow her to interact with humans and the rest of her environment and whatever) because that's not human enough, she shouldn't use ether that way, and because it's a self-limiting idea for a design. She probably doesn't look like the first humans or previous human ancestors because she wouldn't be able to pass for a modern human, which would mandate a very different backstory and fetter her role as an observer. She's probably female because she would represent an XX chromosome (sorta containing XY therefore more complete I guess, regardless if she actually has chromosomes or cell structures or even organs) and because a lone female character would find it more easy to socialize and therefore observe; in most circumstances a female would be more likely to be accepted into groups of humans and make them lower their guard.* I suspect her hair color, eye color, and body shape represent a balance of idealization and realism but there's a possibility that the specific circumstances surrounding her creation have an impact. She may look like the people who would eventually inhabit that area, and the shape of the rock that was her original form may have had a role regardless if the ether formed around the sufficiently woman-shaped rock or just because of it, leaving the rock where it lay. So, maybe her eyes were dark because they were just a shadow on the stone, but I figure her hair is blonde because that's something of an ideal (both because it was an ideal and because it would have been useful). I think her weight represents a compromise between the stone and what a human woman of the same stature would weigh so she's heavier than she looks. She doesn't sleep because that would get in the way of observing, but I'm not sure why she doesn't eat. If my understanding is correct I think she should be able to, though she wouldn't need to. Eating would be a useful part of socializing, but if she actually can't that may mean inside she is literally a rock and her human appearance is appearance only. [edit] Or, on further reflection it probably just means that she can't intake even the tiny amount of ether that would be in food.[/edit] There's also the possibility that the existence of Jones sped human evolution (which I sort of humorously referenced in a fancomic here). As an extension of my theory on Jones I should mention that I don't think she is currently necessary to the ether, or at least nowhere near as necessary as when she first came to be. She may benefit from myths like Pygmalion's statue Galatia and the interactions she's had with people over the years but she isn't exactly famous and I don't think she could benefit from that in the same way an etheric entity could by virtue of her ethericaly-isolated existence. Should some sufficiently powerful force act on Jones in a way that would truly change her I think that would do her in even if it was something that wouldn't harm or kill a normal human. If the oxbow lake of ether drains, I think that's it for Jones. Probably any change, even the smallest, would be enough, though (perhaps ironically) The Tooth might be able to, say, cut a hair from her head without destroying her... but I wouldn't count on it. Best case she becomes intangible and has to get a job in the etheric bureaucracy, worst case she explodes and she has waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more information in her head than Zeta, and possibly more stored primal ether. *At least until they notice that she's really strong and indestructible, at which point they would reevaluate things. |
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Post by hp on Aug 20, 2023 12:40:36 GMT
Probably any change, even the smallest, would be enough, though (perhaps ironically) The Tooth might be able to, say, cut a hair from her head without destroying her... but I wouldn't count on it. oooooh interesting spec. I wonder if Coyote or Loup would be able to do any harm at all to Jones if they wanted. I even quickly browsed Coyote's story chapters and Jones' chapter (40) after reading your comment, to see if there was any mention of that possibility. But he never touched on the subject and she only says she can't be harmed in any way (without any particular reference to etherial or material damage). I also finished a complete re-read recently and don't remember anything being said about that.
The only hint we have, unless I'm forgetting something, is that when Loup wanted to get rid of Jones he chose to launch her into space. He WAS able to launch her tho, so ether is able to at least affect her in some way. .. Changing the subject a little. While reading your fancomics (nice work BTW, that one about human evolution was awesome) with her musings about future humans, it occurred to me that Jones never mentioned if she "woke up" already in possession of language and being able to articulate thoughts, or if it was something that she developed/learned with time. Did she already have a pre-existing semiotic repertoire with which she could start classifying and signifying the world around her? In what language she used to think when there were no humans? She says she has no memory of the time before the earth's formation, but at that moment when she became self-aware, did she already have any knowledge?
If she was born as a blank slate, did she just invent her own language while "cataloguing" her experiences and later passed it on to hominids? Judging from reports on cognition effects of being raised in isolation, unlikely. Even more so because she is said to have "little or no imagination", as she mentioned in ch.40. How would she be able to devise a symbolic system on her own? Did she only start to signify after meeting her first humans and learning to communicate? Should some sufficiently powerful force act on Jones in a way that would truly change her I think that would do her in even if it was something that wouldn't harm or kill a normal human. Maybe if pierced she starts leaking radiation and causes a nuclear disaster, like Captain Atom in Kingdom Come lmao
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 22, 2023 5:19:15 GMT
I wonder if Coyote or Loup would be able to do any harm at all to Jones if they wanted. I even quickly browsed Coyote's story chapters and Jones' chapter (40) after reading your comment, to see if there was any mention of that possibility. But he never touched on the subject and she only says she can't be harmed in any way (without any particular reference to etherial or material damage). I also finished a complete re-read recently and don't remember anything being said about that. The only hint we have, unless I'm forgetting something, is that when Loup wanted to get rid of Jones he chose to launch her into space. He WAS able to launch her tho, so ether is able to at least affect her in some way. It depends on how much ether is trapped in Jones and how exactly it's trapped in there but I gotta speculate that yes, Coyote or "Loup" could probably destroy Jones, as could anything wielding god-tier etheric mojo. If they wanted to, I think they could look into the ether and figure out how to bypass her immutability... if they think of it and actually commit the time and effort to understand her, that is. They could probably brute-force it too, as long as they're going all-out using etheric means and not just making lots of conventional energy... Although, it could probably done by enough boring normal energy if it was effectively mythic in scale. Maybe the Court could build a big gravity accelerator and fire Jones into a black hole on a course calculated to create maximum stress on her form. Not to get overly wrapped up in semantics but while gods could probably destroy Jones they probably can't hurt Jones. She doesn't feel pain and I think she'd be destroyed if fundamentally changed so they'd have to try something so sophisticated and taxing that I think it's beyond what most gods in the GCU are capable of. They'd have to first transform her into something that can feel pain without destroying her and I'm thinking that's a pretty tall order. Some gods might be capable of an etheric work-around that could allow Jones to experience pain as data, by overlaying some sort of construct over her for example, but in the end that's not the same thing and it would be tough or impossible to keep her imprisoned in it. It occurred to me that Jones never mentioned if she "woke up" already in possession of language and being able to articulate thoughts, or if it was something that she developed/learned with time. Did she already have a pre-existing semiotic repertoire with which she could start classifying and signifying the world around her? In what language she used to think when there were no humans? She says she has no memory of the time before the earth's formation, but at that moment when she became self-aware, did she already have any knowledge? If she was born as a blank slate, did she just invent her own language while "cataloguing" her experiences and later passed it on to hominids? Judging from reports on cognition effects of being raised in isolation, unlikely. Even more so because she is said to have "little or no imagination", as she mentioned in ch.40. How would she be able to devise a symbolic system on her own? Did she only start to signify after meeting her first humans and learning to communicate? The central absurdity of that old fan comic was how silly it would be to have Jones running around in prehistory speaking English with a wide vocabulary and performing invasive examinations on cartoon dinosaurs in the name of science... but I think that Jones must have started with something more than just the data provided by her sense organ analogues. When she eventually found humans she probably discovered... well, symbols, language, that sort of thing, and began processing information on an abstract level. There's a problem if she can't do that before, though, because if she can't move she can't locate humans and interact with them. Maybe she noticed natural forces (erosion, various creatures, what-have-you) moving her body, or maybe just moving nearby, and so learned that her body could move after what might have been a very long period of time... but that would mean she was capable of not only a little imagination but also human-like self-awareness and/or counter-factual thinking from the very beginning or from very early on in her story. Maybe this isn't as big a reach as it seems. We're speculating that Jones is a spontaneous creation of ether, who operates on/contains ether instead of running on mundane material means. If ether can create Jones, can't the ether within Jones cause her to be creative? Should some sufficiently powerful force act on Jones in a way that would truly change her I think that would do her in even if it was something that wouldn't harm or kill a normal human. Maybe if pierced she starts leaking radiation and causes a nuclear disaster, like Captain Atom in Kingdom Come lmao
Not sure exactly what would happen if Jones exploded but it might tell us something interesting about the GCU. Jones should be at minimum a primal flow of ether but she is also a form. She may be a rock (just a normal rock) or she may be a durable etheric impression of the original rock... which could potentially be a thing that's a high-middle state on the ether-matter continuum. It might depend on how she was destroyed but the most likely result would be something like we're seeing now in the comic, an uncontrolled release of ether that warps reality (or maybe better to say pushes regular reality away until the pressure equalizes). Having primal ether and a lot of data I think Jones' spoilsport explosion might semi-permanently change reality in a given locus, but if the impression exists withstands her demise that might create another pocket space and fill it with things Jones encountered during her existence. (shrug) |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 23, 2023 8:53:20 GMT
What makes me think the whole "Coyote wants to actually die" angle is suspicious is... He's a product of human belief and an important deity in some Native American religions. Will something happen to those beliefs if its product "actually dies"? Or rather, will he ever be able to "actually die" if those beliefs in him remain? Maybe he'll experience actually dying and after that just go on existing as always, lmao Was gonna reply to this earlier but got distracted and forgot. After this page ( 674) appeared in the comic, which appeared to show two Coyotes and two Antimonies, we began to speculate that Coyote can be in more than one place at a time if he wants. There was one formspring question where Mr. Siddell replied that Coyote does not exactly split his time between the Americas and Gillite Wood. Finally, in his stand-alone comic it was shown that when Coyote left America (to eventually wind up in Gillite Wood) he also stayed. So, Coyote actually permanently dying and not coming back probably won't impact Coyote any, or his believers, or the ether that causes him to exist (since it's kinda a wash). Maybe the story of Coyote dying will eventually reach Coyote; I'm sure he'd like to hear about it even if it is a tale in which he completely screws up and fails. |
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Post by blahzor on Aug 23, 2023 11:20:25 GMT
New question in my hed
Is Coyote not a trickster god but actually the god of innovation?
Would explain his copying a power and making it actually better. He's man's innovation. We see birds and things fly we make planes
We see things going faster than us and make carriages, cars
We see the stars and things moving and we make spaceships
And the court is the apex of this idea
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Post by AluK on Aug 25, 2023 10:32:59 GMT
New question in my hed Is Coyote not a trickster god but actually the god of innovation? Would explain his copying a power and making it actually better. He's man's innovation. We see birds and things fly we make planes We see things going faster than us and make carriages, cars We see the stars and things moving and we make spaceships And the court is the apex of this idea In comparative mythology, the trickster god archetype is usually seen as the challenger: the one that creates hardships that need to be overcome. Trickster gods often promote growth through change. So, in a way, they're meant to spur innovation. Worth mentioning that Renard the Fox is also generally considered an archetypal trickster. |
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Post by gpvos on Aug 27, 2023 12:50:42 GMT
Metawildspec: when Tom resumes his video commentary series, he will have finished writing the comic and it will end about three months later when the queue empties.
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Post by Runningflame on Aug 29, 2023 3:01:22 GMT
Supposing that Zimmy dies because of this Coyote/Loup brawl that landed on top of her--then in a manner of speaking, it will be true that she died because of Kat. The only reason Coyote came toward her was because he was looking for the creator of the New People.
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Post by pyradonis on Aug 29, 2023 12:52:35 GMT
Supposing that Zimmy dies because of this Coyote/Loup brawl that landed on top of her--then in a manner of speaking, it will be true that she died because of Kat. The only reason Coyote came toward her was because he was looking for the creator of the New People. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 1, 2023 10:32:38 GMT
This was alluded to by a couple of other people, but I feel deserves to be expanded on in this thread. The overwhelming majority of stuff that's in the comic is canon. That disquieting image of Lana in the box may just be a flashback to some pre-Coyote moment or an allegorical representation of her current state but is possibly (maybe likely) literal. Despite what Robot might argue she's the first Noobman to die a real death and, as a former electrical appliance and/or golem, isn't under the auspices of the RotD or other supernatural agency. She is probably aware of several possible human myths about the afterlife but doesn't believe they apply to her and/or has little or no etheric juice so she can't possibly reach them on her own. Lana needs some sort of intervention. Fortuitously, a decent medium is currently mucking around near where she was last operational, is aware what happened to her, and may be aided by the distortion in finding her. That may be what the 'pomps want of Antimony post-Jeanne, but I'm not sure they've got the foresight for that. More likely they just want a living agent at their beck and call to help with difficult cases. They might be willing to settle for Antimony being the semi-official ex-robot wrangler, though what would happen down the road after Antimony is no longer alive could be a problem. Of course if Antimony dies childless then that position could be made official and permanent... or at least permanent as long as she wants it and needs to do it. Eventually enough Noobmen would die knowing that they could get into the ether (or the great workshop in the sky, or what-have-you) and believing in their own afterlife that the RotD and the ether would adapt. I kinda doubt that would be covered in the comic before it ends, though maybe it would be implied. |
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Post by AluK on Sept 3, 2023 0:39:33 GMT
That may be what the 'pomps want of Antimony post-Jeanne, but I'm not sure they've got the foresight for that. More likely they just want a living agent at their beck and call to help with difficult cases. They might be willing to settle for Antimony being the semi-official ex-robot wrangler, though what would happen down the road after Antimony is no longer alive could be a problem. Of course if Antimony dies childless then that position could be made official and permanent... or at least permanent as long as she wants it and needs to do it. Eventually enough Noobmen would die knowing that they could get into the ether (or the great workshop in the sky, or what-have-you) and believing in their own afterlife that the RotD and the ether would adapt. I kinda doubt that would be covered in the comic before it ends, though maybe it would be implied. I imagine that once the Annie transitions the first NP (Lana, probably) into the ether, it will anchor her as a psychopomp (possible NP's psychopomp in specific). Psychopomps are essentially deities and not exactly mortal in a conventional sense. Subsequent transitions would then likely reinforce those beliefs and Annie's nature as, as you put it, NP would likely develop their own conceptual framework for an afterlife. And the funny parallel thing is that it's quite possible the same first transition will also kickstart Kat's ascent into godhood. |
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Post by blahzor on Sept 4, 2023 4:39:14 GMT
Psychopomps aren't immune to dying but don't seem to die without outside influence. So this could workout for her and that whole fire element transfer thing
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