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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 18, 2023 20:00:16 GMT
Probably the best example in the comic of the Court bureaucracy in action was the appointment of the new medium, personified by Johnathan Llanwellyn, starting here. Rereading that second half of Ch. 41 while paying special attention to what Johnathan does or what others do that makes him happy, angry, or bored (and who benefits or loses from what's happening) is a good 5-10 minute primer on their internal logic. |
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Post by jda on Jun 21, 2023 8:44:38 GMT
By the way, this prophecy? warning? of Coyote that Ysengrin revealed seems to have been futile, right? Given that one would have thought that Ysengrin is saying the Court want to take Annie into the Star Ocean... but it was never the case. The Court knew from the beginning that they will leave Annie, so... what is the meaning of Ysengrins warning? Or just a piece of "No, I understand" waiting to happen? |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 21, 2023 9:58:19 GMT
By the way, this prophecy? warning? of Coyote that Ysengrin revealed seems to have been futile, right? Given that one would have thought that Ysengrin is saying the Court want to take Annie into the Star Ocean... but it was never the case. The Court knew from the beginning that they will leave Annie, so... what is the meaning of Ysengrins warning? I'm not sure at what exact point the Court decided to cut and run but yeah, after that point they were probably done with Antimony. It almost certainly wasn't instantly after "Loup" attacked, since there would be discussion over something that big even if they had the emergency procedure more-or-less ready to go. Assuming Ysengrin's "prophesy" was before that point, what were Antimony's prospects in the Court? Despite the expectations of many of the old guard, Antimony the legacy wasn't going to assume her mother's old job. She'd demonstrated a rebellious streak that the Court grand poohbahs couldn't tolerate. We know that the Court tried to end Antimony's visits to Gillite Wood, but what else would've happened if Coyote hadn't made Antimony the forest medium? What role could she have had? She's effectively Renard's jailer, so there's that, but the Court could contain him more securely otherwise and seemed to want to separate them (Johnathan gave her a chance to surrender Renard, though he didn't seem to really expect her to do so yet). Antimony may have some talent in the medical field but she isn't good with tech or computers. They've got Anthony back so she isn't needed, but maybe she could inherit her dad's position instead someday... if she was no longer a threat to their authority and she academically straightened up and flew right. That being the case, I think the Court would push Antimony in the direction of medical studies and have her do her residency and a decade or so of practice somewhere far away in the muggle realm. She'd have to leave Renard behind to do that, and she wouldn't be able to use her powers very much at all. She'd be much more likely to toe the line after that. If med school is too much for her academically, maybe psychology or something else that would also require clinical practice far away. And if not that..? Well, maybe she can be a field agent. [edit] On further reflection, after she'd been sufficiently frustrated and broken in, Antimony probably would've been recruited by Aata into his faction of Shadow Men. Her fire power would make her a decent agent and recruiting her would've made it more likely for Aata to recruit Kat as well. [/edit] |
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Post by mturtle7 on Jun 21, 2023 15:08:08 GMT
Oh this portrayal of the inner Court sounds HORRIFYINGLY accurate to literally everything we've seen of them in the comic so far. Anja's computer getting dismissed as useless on the basis of a vague principle despite it's obvious utility, Renard getting singled out as an enemy to be contained long before he did literally anything remotely threatening, Antimony getting passed over as medium when everyone knew she was the most qualified candidate, Jones' power and prominence within the Court hierarchy despite (or rather, because of) her aggressively unaligned status, Tony getting randomly pulled back in against his will after years of absence and almost immediately rising to a position of significant power, Anja's shield magitech getting installed in all robots without them or her or indeed most of the Court knowing about it, Annie getting blamed for everything whenever Loup does something bad, Aata getting ousted and replaced by his longtime rival as soon as he slipped up even once...the list just goes on and on! We've been thinking of the Court as a mysterious and powerful ruler with a secret master plan for so long, when in fact literally all signs have ALWAYS pointed to a bloated, leaderless, bureaucracy in the midst of dying an agonizingly slow death... Some of these actions do make sense in a twisted way. Annie getting blamed for Loup's actions, for example - it's easier to blame a student in your midst than a powerful wolf-god outside the Court, beyond your reach. Like being angry at the world but unable to do anything about it, so you kick a stone or a tree, or slam a door - or take it out on someone smaller and weaker than yourself. Oh for sure! I'm not saying that all of these are unexplainable through any other means, just that, when taken all together, they fit imaginaryfriend's portrayal of the Court extremely well. |
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Post by philistine21 on Jun 21, 2023 16:18:33 GMT
By the way, this prophecy? warning? of Coyote that Ysengrin revealed seems to have been futile, right? Given that one would have thought that Ysengrin is saying the Court want to take Annie into the Star Ocean... but it was never the case. The Court knew from the beginning that they will leave Annie, so... what is the meaning of Ysengrins warning? Or just a piece of "No, I understand" waiting to happen? It's possible he saw that they wanted to take her at some point in the past (but didn't realize that she'd fallen out of favor) or he only saw that the court intended to leave and assumed they'd take her with them. |
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Post by alevice on Jun 21, 2023 23:23:14 GMT
By the way, this prophecy? warning? of Coyote that Ysengrin revealed seems to have been futile, right? Given that one would have thought that Ysengrin is saying the Court want to take Annie into the Star Ocean... but it was never the case. The Court knew from the beginning that they will leave Annie, so... what is the meaning of Ysengrins warning? Or just a piece of "No, I understand" waiting to happen? Sorry, we only handle temporal affairs |
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Post by luthien341 on Jun 22, 2023 4:19:15 GMT
Coyote told Annie, " See you one last time, fire head girl!" And it seems now that Coyote has returned for the last laugh... Is this truly the "last time" that Coyote spoke of? It doesn't seem like Loup has done anything warranting Annie to kill him with Coyote's tooth...but we've seen that the tooth has been used (even if unintentionally so) to alter the state of Shadow's existence, turning him into an almost new form of life. I wonder if this is how Annie will also use the tooth, to separate Loup/Coyote/Ysengrin from the "being" of Jerrek, and thereby leaving Jerrek as a "new" creature of his own accord. |
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Post by blahzor on Jun 22, 2023 9:20:52 GMT
By the way, this prophecy? warning? of Coyote that Ysengrin revealed seems to have been futile, right? Given that one would have thought that Ysengrin is saying the Court want to take Annie into the Star Ocean... but it was never the case. The Court knew from the beginning that they will leave Annie, so... what is the meaning of Ysengrins warning? Or just a piece of "No, I understand" waiting to happen? I assume Y's could tell they were going to leave. Not know exactly how and assume they would take anyone still in the court |
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 22, 2023 15:15:42 GMT
[edit] On further reflection, after she'd been sufficiently frustrated and broken in, Antimony probably would've been recruited by Aata into his faction of Shadow Men. Her fire power would make her a decent agent and recruiting her would've made it more likely for Aata to recruit Kat as well. [/edit] Higly unlikely. Aata himself was only admitted into the Shadow Men under the condition that he would forgo the Ether and was kicked out after failing at it. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 22, 2023 20:45:24 GMT
[edit] On further reflection, after she'd been sufficiently frustrated and broken in, Antimony probably would've been recruited by Aata into his faction of Shadow Men. Her fire power would make her a decent agent and recruiting her would've made it more likely for Aata to recruit Kat as well. [/edit] Higly unlikely. Aata himself was only admitted into the Shadow Men under the condition that he would forgo the Ether and was kicked out after failing at it. Heh. He wouldn't be using the ether at all. While he might not be able to make her an "official" Shadow Man, unless she also agreed to quit using her fire, he could still bring this hypothetical Antimony into his faction and use her for missions where they need her fire, language, or medium skills. He's pretty persuasive anyway, but being broken-in and politically homeless would make it extra appealing. |
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Post by exquisitecorpus on Jun 22, 2023 22:38:28 GMT
In light of the recent bombastic return of Coyote ( HA!), I've been rereading key pages to figure out his plan. There are so many moving parts I find puzzling. One: if he simply wanted to experience true death, is it not in his power to maneuver events so that he is the only one killed? Why also stipulate the deaths of Loup and Ysengrin? I don't buy that they're simply collateral damage. Barring Zimmy and Renard, that's consigning the most powerful etheric beings in proximity to the Court to death. Why do this? Two: given Coyote's role in promoting the Forest's primordial chaos, and its effects on the ether, wouldn't his death significantly weaken the ether? However opaque Coyote's intentions are, I cannot imagine his goals include actively sabotaging the ether—all his actions before have been to strengthen it. There has to be something deeper to this whole death thing. In light of everything above, I think there's special significance to what he says on this page, when he asks Annie to kill Loup: "Who better a steward of death than a guide of death?" (emphasis mine) and "When it is done you will know what to do, but not how to do it" (emphasis not mine). I think it's telling he specifically signposts Annie's status as a (newly inducted) psychopomp. "What to do, but not how"? My god. It's been staring us right in the face. What if he intends to have Annie in her capacity as a psychopomp reclaim his soul and bring it back to the ether? Wouldn't that be a big infusion of ether? Has there even been a precedent for this kind of thing? Have gods ever been shepherded through death by a psychopomp? Since they're implicated, I'm also rereading stuff to figure out the psychopomps' agenda, and there are theories a-brewing. I suspect, as psychopomps are a group who both depend on the ether (being mythological beings themselves, with mythological powers) and ensure the ether's continued existence by reclaiming souls (a task they seem almost dogmatically compelled to do—just see how long and hard they kept at Jeanne), they have very good reason to stop the whole New World Pilgrimage thing (a place where people die without psychopomps to guide them through death? Unthinkable!), or barring that, to find some way to establish a foothold on the New World—about as much reason as the New World crowd has to keep psychopomps out. Their machinations to induct Annie into their ranks most definitely has something to do with it. Wouldn't be surprised if some colluding between Coyote and psychopomps took place. Will do full-blown wildspec post later. Edit: now I'm also wondering if the New People will ever be considered "real" people—real enough to warrant psychopomp services when dead. At the very least, they're considered living beings by Arbiter Saslamel. We've seen Muut state that psychopomps "do not deal in electrical appliances," but I imagine that's about to change. I mean, this has to be how Kat achieves apotheosis. We know from Coyote that death and psychopomps are how beliefs gain traction in the ether. |
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Post by maxptc on Jul 7, 2023 0:31:52 GMT
Coyote didnt know how any of his plan was going to go, he doesn't look into the future or use his ability to be all knowing, he was just making etheric enhanced educated guesses.
Additional wild spec, he has like forty prompts loaded up for the various ways he thought this might go.
"HA, I knew this would happen. I encouraged Ysengrin to teach you to fight so you and Loup joining a magical underground fight club was inevitable! How does it feel knowing you must stab your tag team partner mere seconds after becoming champions together."
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Post by todd on Jul 7, 2023 14:09:41 GMT
Yes, it’s a huge temptation to outsource mental functions and allow a potentially crippling dependency in one cup, and they clearly did not resist it too much. They have surveillance (but not necessarily good threat assessment), and maybe other ways to mitigate the problem. But even if not all the eggs were in that basket, there were too many. Once they noticed its unreliability, they are in the position of sudden near-blindness. Just like the navigators in Dune when they have seen an approaching wall of discontinuity without any way to go around it… with the same response: quiet panic and risk aversion. Which is at least better than loud panic and flailing, but makes them sitting ducks for any other party with similar capabilities (in this case, Coyote). Now they need to fix it (which presumably involves gathering more data). And kick-start viable backup solutions in case they cannot find and fix the errors so quickly that it won’t matter. Then they are hit by two more otherwise insignificant crises without being able to waltz through them… and so on. Eventually, the great crisis they failed to contain, never mind solve. So they give up and opt to accelerate a plan allowing to run away from it. What else could they do? One other thought on the "Court became too dependent on Omega's predictions" theory; it offers a more believable "danger of AI" scenario than the "AI decides to take over the world" concept (which I always found too far-fetched; that sort of mentality stems from emotions like fear and greed, which I can't imagine AI developing). People start letting AI do all the thinking for them, and when the AI starts to go wrong, their planning and reasoning skills have atrophied. |
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Post by blahzor on Jul 7, 2023 16:48:52 GMT
Wildest spec
Jones has memories from every Kat universe and has just been letting things happen.
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 7, 2023 22:40:36 GMT
The Court appears to lack any formal structure above heads of individual departments and that makes things worse. At some point in the past that probably wasn't so, as it's called a court, there's a hall with a throne-looking chair, and we know there was at least one noble (Sir Young). It's true that their population isn't that big but people who are naturally better leaders should have emerged just in the general course of things over the decades. The fact that apparently nobody's truly in charge implies that there's sufficient behind-the-scenes maneuvering that anyone who could be a threat to the informal structure never gets a chance to demonstrate their capability; Jonathan may or may not be a figurehead, and their coordination is tenuous at best, but this does not mean nobody at all is in charge. There’s one dominant group (Shadow Men). They seem to own internal security. There may be the second tier of departments or cabals. If the council we have seen still formally rules the Court, the obvious criterion is that some groups have one of the seats of that council, which are limited in number. Then they would form the core of oligarchy, perhaps with Shadow Men being “first among the equals”. The rest of a huge crowd assembling when Mr. Llanwellyn gets to sit in a big chair are the representatives of various lesser teams. So there can be a clear and accepted hierarchy, but even those on top have very weak legitimacy, thus resort to some smoke and mirrors, between backroom agreements. This may also perpetuate influence of internal security: they cannot go full Inquisition, but they usually know how you screwed up… and exactly who was upset by this. indeed, anyone who could be a good leader is probably singled out early and subjected to slights and low frustrations until they wear out and permanently give up, becoming peaceful cogs in the greater machine. The emergence of a decent leader would be a direct threat to the authority of the (mediocre) current leaders of the various departments, therefore mediocracy and paralysis rules the day. I suppose it's a testament to the severity of the crisis that they can even accomplish minor things. This requires coordination (if only spontaneous coordination). And/or state of complete decay. Neither is compatible with most of the attitudes we have seen. People able and willing to lead the dance have a golden opportunity to head their own little cabals/cliques/clubs/conspiracies. Maybe even a formal department. This just won’t amount to much on a larger scale. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 8, 2023 0:30:59 GMT
Jonathan may or may not be a figurehead, and their coordination is tenuous at best, but this does not mean nobody at all is in charge. There’s one dominant group (Shadow Men). They seem to own internal security. There may be the second tier of departments or cabals. If the council we have seen still formally rules the Court, the obvious criterion is that some groups have one of the seats of that council, which are limited in number. Then they would form the core of oligarchy, perhaps with Shadow Men being “first among the equals”. The rest of a huge crowd assembling when Mr. Llanwellyn gets to sit in a big chair are the representatives of various lesser teams. So there can be a clear and accepted hierarchy, but even those on top have very weak legitimacy, thus resort to some smoke and mirrors, between backroom agreements. This may also perpetuate influence of internal security: they cannot go full Inquisition, but they usually know how you screwed up… and exactly who was upset by this. Are the Shadow Men dominant? Sure, as the cabal involved in internal security in a surveillance state they should wield a lot of influence but their leader just got elbowed out and their new leader Llanwellyn is also head of the school, which is also a critical institution. I think it's reasonable to assume that Llanwellyn was a member before he became leader, which means that at least one leader of another faction was a Shadow Man at the same time, but if not then that was a hostile takeover. The same problem probably exists for all of the institutions and services of any importance. The bigger cliques will want one of their own inside each... essentially, all the big ones probably have infiltrated each other to some degree. Some groups probably were more successful at keeping people with questionable loyalties out, but they probably paid a price for that in the lack of cooperation and resources from other groups... which probably led to less success in their core function and thus a decline in influence overall. [edit] I should also mention that the Shadow Men are a secret group. They can't formally own internal security though they may effectively do so. Of course, if there's no formal structure above the department level and everything is governed by cabals and traditions there could be an informal council... but as such, the number of seats and criteria for participating would also be informal. If so-and-so was permitted to attend a hypothetical ruling council but never given the floor what could their recourse be? They could pull a stunt at the meeting by speaking out of turn, breaking Robert's rules, which probably would make them look weak/rude/intractable... or pursue some sort of redress through unofficial politics which would require some sort of bribery of finagling.[/edit] indeed, anyone who could be a good leader is probably singled out early and subjected to slights and low frustrations until they wear out and permanently give up, becoming peaceful cogs in the greater machine. The emergence of a decent leader would be a direct threat to the authority of the (mediocre) current leaders of the various departments, therefore mediocracy and paralysis rules the day. I suppose it's a testament to the severity of the crisis that they can even accomplish minor things. This requires coordination (if only spontaneous coordination). And/or state of complete decay. Nah, it just requires an excess of unenlightened rational self-interest and the ancient problem of how one needs experience to get a job but can't get experience without a job. The starting point for every young person in the Court is the school, where legacies are groomed, lifepaths are decided, and anyone incurably disruptive is weeded out and shipped off. After school, or in some cases during the latter forms, the young fledglings go to their new workplace where they are given low to middling positions depending on their abilities. The less talented are probably taken in wherever a reasonably-competent warm body is needed, but there's probably competition and backroom-negotiations for the brighter stars. Someone as talented and pedigreed as Kat Donlan would probably be offered a sweetheart deal and allowed to rock some apple-carts on the way, up to a point anyway, but that's the exception and not the rule. A special position might even be made for her alone but even she isn't going to start out as a department head because she just doesn't have any administrative experience and in the name of keeping her at her research she very likely wouldn't be allowed to gain any. The small population of the Court guarantees that opportunities for promotion are few and far between. All key positions are already occupied by more senior personnel... and here is where the unenlightened rational self-interest comes into play. A new hire that shines too much is an embarrassment. It's a threat not only to authority within the particular institution but also to influence in other cliques that are vital for securing cooperation with other institutions. People able and willing to lead the dance have a golden opportunity to head their own little cabals/cliques/clubs/conspiracies. Maybe even a formal department. This just won’t amount to much on a larger scale. True, and I'm sure the number of small cliques, cabals, conspiracies, and clubs is very numerous. They probably have their own goals, rules and games but when they start to get too big they start to threaten entrenched interests. Over time some did become successful and in theory that success can be repeated given the right set of circumstances. It may even be the case that the Shadow Men was once an informal gathering of concerned Courtesans (heh) who were worried about the shadow men infiltrating the Court and began planning countermeasures in secret. Or maybe they took the name Shadow Men because they thought of themselves infiltrating the Court to seize power move institutions in a more positive direction. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 9, 2023 0:30:14 GMT
So in response to a post someone else wrote about the details of Coyote's plan, here's a deep dive about how I think what's happened in the comic fits together. There's some wildspec at the end about stuff that I think will happen. The Goal: Coyote wants to actually die a real and permanent death because he's bored and wants to defeat his own limitations; really dying is about the one thing that he can't do. It's either not about going into the ether at all or entering in a very mundane (for him) way. He's died many many times before but it just doesn't stick because he's a god, a powerful being of the etherium. In order to actually die he has to divest himself of his powers, and I think the reason for that is practical and not because of the rules of the celestial bureaucracy. Say you want to sink your money-pit of a houseboat to collect the insurance but it's got foam-filled pontoons. You can knock holes in the bottom but it still won't sink. It's metal so setting it on fire would just burn the interior. Even if you fill the whole houseboat with rocks it'll just capsize, the rocks will fall out, and the houseboat will pop back to the surface. First you've got to get rid of those pontoons, then you can punch a hole in the hull and it will sink. Ysengrin serves two main purposes in the plan and one lesser one. First, he's a receptacle for the bulk of Coyote's power. Second, he was the method for killing Coyote when Coyote wanted to be killed. Third, and least importantly, he was also the receptacle for the residuals of Coyote; after killing Coyote Ysengrin ate him. As long as Ysengrin's will remains strong Coyote won't reappear but Ysengrin isn't a god, he can't contain all that power forever and eventually he'll crack and Coyote will pop back to the surface. Therefore, while everything's properly dispersed and Coyote's dead, Ysengrin will have to die too. That's a problem, since Ysengrin has to be vicious and willful enough to kill Coyote and contain his powers for a while and thus isn't going to let just anyone kill him. [edit] Also, it was formsprung that Coyote can only die if he wants to, even with the giggleblade; it may be the case that someone with Coyote's power also can't die unless they want to so they'll have to be managed to an emotional state from which they want to die or at least won't mind dying. [/edit] Someone has to be groomed into fulfilling this role in the final part. An attractive member of the opposite sex would be the easiest way to fill this role. That's Antimony. But there's one last thing... if Coyote is dead dead then he can't do anything to safeguard his plan, and he can't enjoy seeing how his plan is working. By arranging some post-death reappearances Coyote can have his cake and eat it too, and the substance put into them probably also counts as powers offloaded. So... Step 1: Find a suitable patsy. Renard isn't interested enough in Coyote's power, though he does take one power which helps. Ysengrin, on the other hand, wants power and is suitably resentful over how humans see him. Give him some powers to keep him on the hook. Step 2: Wind up the patsy. Tormenting the crap out of Ysengrin makes him more angry and bitter. Take his memories to keep him in a holding pattern; that will keep him from doing any self-reflection. Step 3: Groom a suitable femme fatale. Surma had some of the right qualities but her relationships with Renard and Ysengrin didn't develop in a useful way. So, let's go with Surma's more vulnerable father-issue plagued daughter. Provide her some insight into Ysengrin's real nature. She'll need a weapon capable of cutting anything, even a god, for the final act. It can also serve as an apology so she doesn't get too upset about being manipulated. Step 4: Do a trial run Can we still bait Ysengrin into attacking Antimony on cue? Yes we can. Eat that memory too, can't have Ysengrin thinking too much about what's going on. Don't eat Antimony's memory of the attack, though. It's best if she knows exactly what he's capable of. Step 5: Give the patsy your powers He's been wanting them for a very long time. Step 6: Bait the patsy into killing you Now that Coyote offloaded offloaded his powers he can just screw with the patsy until he- No need, already done in step 5. Steps 7-8: Come back from the dead a few times to make sure the plan is on track and to bask in your own greatness. Make sure the patsy and the femme fatale think they don't have any options other than to run along the tracks you've set for them. The goose bone and lake water kept a key memory away from "Loup" for a while longer after he got the rest of them back... but mostly they were McGuffins to kill time while things played out... by which I mean this was the time period where the patsy was supposed to be creeping on the femme fatale, growing more and more obsessed with her. Step 9: Come back one last time to wind up the patsy to the maximum. Finally, the home stretch! No powers means Coyote can't screw with "Loup" the way he used to, but there's decades of memories of abuse that can be used to trigger him if Coyote pushes the right buttons. Make him do something that will force the femme fatale to kill him. Step 10: the femme fatale kills the patsy Coyote is now unrecoverable (well, this Coyote anyway). Does the patsy die too? Well, maybe the femme fatale can figure out how to bring Ysengrin back... but Coyote got what he wanted either way. One thing that I've left off is the possibility of a goose-wife, which would be some offloaded portion of Coyote that is thinking he or she is someone else, but is actually working to keep Coyote's plan on track. Coyote didn't know about the Noobmenz so unless the process was somehow automated (which is possible, either if Coyote planned it or if those icons of Coyote and Ysengrin in Gillite Wood were some sort of biproduct that spontaniously activated) it seems unlikely that Lana would be the goose-wife. Idra might be a good candidate, but I don't see the necessity for such a role. The known reappearances should be make a goose-wife redundant, and Ysengrin ate Coyote, and in so doing should have consumed any troublesome leftovers that could've been used for a goose-wife, but perhaps the goose-wife is one of the post-death preset reappearances. Coyote did work on this plan for decades, so he would have wanted to safeguard it as much as possible. (shrug) |
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Post by Runningflame on Jul 9, 2023 19:16:33 GMT
Random wildspec: Since Loup has fallen in love with Lana when he was supposed to fall in love with Annie, Coyote will square that circle by combining Lana and Annie into one person, called Lannie.
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Post by mturtle7 on Jul 14, 2023 17:25:41 GMT
So in response to a post someone else wrote about the details of Coyote's plan, here's a deep dive about how I think what's happened in the comic fits together. There's some wildspec at the end about stuff that I think will happen. The Goal: Coyote wants to actually die a real and permanent death because he's bored and wants to defeat his own limitations; really dying is about the one thing that he can't do. It's either not about going into the ether at all or entering in a very mundane (for him) way. He's died many many times before but it just doesn't stick because he's a god, a powerful being of the etherium. In order to actually die he has to divest himself of his powers, and I think the reason for that is practical and not because of the rules of the celestial bureaucracy. Say you want to sink your money-pit of a houseboat to collect the insurance but it's got foam-filled pontoons. You can knock holes in the bottom but it still won't sink. It's metal so setting it on fire would just burn the interior. Even if you fill the whole houseboat with rocks it'll just capsize, the rocks will fall out, and the houseboat will pop back to the surface. First you've got to get rid of those pontoons, then you can punch a hole in the hull and it will sink. Ysengrin serves two main purposes in the plan and one lesser one. First, he's a receptacle for the bulk of Coyote's power. Second, he was the method for killing Coyote when Coyote wanted to be killed. Third, and least importantly, he was also the receptacle for the residuals of Coyote; after killing Coyote Ysengrin ate him. As long as Ysengrin's will remains strong Coyote won't reappear but Ysengrin isn't a god, he can't contain all that power forever and eventually he'll crack and Coyote will pop back to the surface. Therefore, while everything's properly dispersed and Coyote's dead, Ysengrin will have to die too. That's a problem, since Ysengrin has to be vicious and willful enough to kill Coyote and contain his powers for a while and thus isn't going to let just anyone kill him. [edit] Also, it was formsprung that Coyote can only die if he wants to, even with the giggleblade; it may be the case that someone with Coyote's power also can't die unless they want to so they'll have to be managed to an emotional state from which they want to die or at least won't mind dying. [/edit] Someone has to be groomed into fulfilling this role in the final part. An attractive member of the opposite sex would be the easiest way to fill this role. That's Antimony. But there's one last thing... if Coyote is dead dead then he can't do anything to safeguard his plan, and he can't enjoy seeing how his plan is working. By arranging some post-death reappearances Coyote can have his cake and eat it too, and the substance put into them probably also counts as powers offloaded. So... Step 1: Find a suitable patsy. Renard isn't interested enough in Coyote's power, though he does take one power which helps. Ysengrin, on the other hand, wants power and is suitably resentful over how humans see him. Give him some powers to keep him on the hook. Step 2: Wind up the patsy. Tormenting the crap out of Ysengrin makes him more angry and bitter. Take his memories to keep him in a holding pattern; that will keep him from doing any self-reflection. Step 3: Groom a suitable femme fatale. Surma had some of the right qualities but her relationships with Renard and Ysengrin didn't develop in a useful way. So, let's go with Surma's more vulnerable father-issue plagued daughter. Provide her some insight into Ysengrin's real nature. She'll need a weapon capable of cutting anything, even a god, for the final act. It can also serve as an apology so she doesn't get too upset about being manipulated. Step 4: Do a trial run Can we still bait Ysengrin into attacking Antimony on cue? Yes we can. Eat that memory too, can't have Ysengrin thinking too much about what's going on. Don't eat Antimony's memory of the attack, though. It's best if she knows exactly what he's capable of. Step 5: Give the patsy your powers He's been wanting them for a very long time. Step 6: Bait the patsy into killing you Now that Coyote offloaded offloaded his powers he can just screw with the patsy until he- No need, already done in step 5. Steps 7-8: Come back from the dead a few times to make sure the plan is on track and to bask in your own greatness. Make sure the patsy and the femme fatale think they don't have any options other than to run along the tracks you've set for them. The goose bone and lake water kept a key memory away from "Loup" for a while longer after he got the rest of them back... but mostly they were McGuffins to kill time while things played out... by which I mean this was the time period where the patsy was supposed to be creeping on the femme fatale, growing more and more obsessed with her. Step 9: Come back one last time to wind up the patsy to the maximum. Finally, the home stretch! No powers means Coyote can't screw with "Loup" the way he used to, but there's decades of memories of abuse that can be used to trigger him if Coyote pushes the right buttons. Make him do something that will force the femme fatale to kill him. Step 10: the femme fatale kills the patsy Coyote is now unrecoverable (well, this Coyote anyway). Does the patsy die too? Well, maybe the femme fatale can figure out how to bring Ysengrin back... but Coyote got what he wanted either way. One thing that I've left off is the possibility of a goose-wife, which would be some offloaded portion of Coyote that is thinking he or she is someone else, but is actually working to keep Coyote's plan on track. Coyote didn't know about the Noobmenz so unless the process was somehow automated (which is possible, either if Coyote planned it or if those icons of Coyote and Ysengrin in Gillite Wood were some sort of biproduct that spontaniously activated) it seems unlikely that Lana would be the goose-wife. Idra might be a good candidate, but I don't see the necessity for such a role. The known reappearances should be make a goose-wife redundant, and Ysengrin ate Coyote, and in so doing should have consumed any troublesome leftovers that could've been used for a goose-wife, but perhaps the goose-wife is one of the post-death preset reappearances. Coyote did work on this plan for decades, so he would have wanted to safeguard it as much as possible. (shrug) Most of this kinda makes sense, but the one thing that still baffles me is how this page and this one fit together. Like, the former was clearly supposed to be your Step 9, "wind the patsy up to the maximum" so he'd be led onto a path that would " force Annie's hand". But, all it really did was lead him to adopt the Jerrek persona. Which is apparently what Coyote wanted, so that Loup and Annie would fall in love. And then...what? How, exactly, was the mere act of confessing his love supposed to inevitably & immediately lead to a scene like this? It really feels like I'm missing some crucial piece here, but at the same time, I strongly suspect that piece was never really there in the first place. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 14, 2023 18:10:03 GMT
Most of this kinda makes sense, but the one thing that still baffles me is how this page and this one fit together. Like, the former was clearly supposed to be your Step 9, "wind the patsy up to the maximum" so he'd be led onto a path that would " force Annie's hand". But, all it really did was lead him to adopt the Jerrek persona. Which is apparently what Coyote wanted, so that Loup and Annie would fall in love. And then...what? How, exactly, was the mere act of confessing his love supposed to inevitably & immediately lead to a scene like this? It really feels like I'm missing some crucial piece here, but at the same time, I strongly suspect that piece was never really there in the first place. The key is understanding what would have happened when "Loup" went into the Court if there weren't any Noobmenz. He'd have disguised himself as a human and stalked Antimony and that was supposed to eventually bring them together (if not romantically, then in some sort of love bond). However, Ysengrin was the recipient of decades of (narcissistic?) abuse from Coyote and wouldn't adapt well at all to living as a human. He'd get bossed around by the higher-ups in the Court, be subject to their bureaucracy, and watch Antimony suffer same. His resentment of humans would grow and grow. One way or another he'd eventually recover the water and the goose bone; we don't know what Coyote said to "Loup" when the bone was returned but it really set him off, so it was probably something about how he was bound to fail and die. [edit] Oh yeah, we did learn about that from a flashback, I stand corrected. Coyote emphasized how the Court almost tricked him (to make sure he didn't trust anyone else in the Court later) told him that he'd have to go to the Court to put the pieces together, and reminded him how he (Coyote) wanted "Loup" to die at the end.[/edit] And it's true "Loup" did need to die for the plan for Coyote to die to come to fruition. I think the reason that the specific powers that Coyote gifted to Renard and Ysengrin were flawed was because they just weren't gods and couldn't exercise that level of power the same way that Coyote did. Ysengrin wanted Coyote's power desperately but he can't contain that power forever because he isn't a god, eventually he'd realize that he was Coyote all along, and that would bring an end to whatever troubled existence he was living in the Court. Coyote telling "Loup" that the conclusion of his plan would be for "Loup" to die was to be a self-fulfilling prophesy. It was supposed to keep "Loup" and Antimony (and anybody else they explained the situation to) thinking that there wasn't any other way to resolve the situation then for Antimony to kill "Loup" with the Tooth before Coyote returned. But there were Noobmens aplenty, and bunches of them were digging right around the edges of the Court. Thus Jerrek was born, and while "Loup" sometimes screamed with frustration inside of him, Jerrek was hidden away from the greater population of the Court and all its lovely bureaucracy. Then Lana got jealous of the attention Jerrek was showing to Antimony; Lana swooped in and nabbed Jerrek in a way that not too many adult humans would. That ruined the tragic romantic storyline that Coyote was trying to craft to make sure things wrapped up the way he wanted, because now they're thinking that Coyote was wrong (and a massive dingus) and if given enough time they could come up with some other better resolution to the situation. Or at least that's my best take on what's been happening. [edit] I should add that the better resolution that I think Coyote is afraid of is if they ask some/all of the people of the Court (Kat, Aata, etc.) for help and either extract Coyote's powers from "Loup" in some way that makes them both fail to die or somehow prolong the existence of "Loup" and thus indefinately postpone the resoloution of the situation. For evidence of that there's Aata's attempt to steal Coyote's powers that almost worked and Coyote telling Antimony that he was disappointed she brought people of the Court into the forest (thus into the "Loup" situation). |
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Post by mturtle7 on Jul 15, 2023 5:11:52 GMT
we don't know what Coyote said to "Loup" when the bone was returned but it really set him off, so it was probably something about how he was bound to fail and die. And it's true "Loup" did need to die for the plan for Coyote to die to come to fruition. One correction: what Coyote said after the goose bone was cracked was fully explicit, so I presume you mean the lake water, but actually even that was eventually revealed via flashback ( this page which I linked to in my original post, and the one preceding it).
Otherwise, what you're saying about Loup getting mroe frustrated by humans if the Newmans weren't around definitely makes more sense of the situation! Thanks!
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 15, 2023 10:40:08 GMT
we don't know what Coyote said to "Loup" when the bone was returned but it really set him off, so it was probably something about how he was bound to fail and die. And it's true "Loup" did need to die for the plan for Coyote to die to come to fruition. One correction: what Coyote said after the goose bone was cracked was fully explicit, so I presume you mean the lake water, but actually even that was eventually revealed via flashback ( this page which I linked to in my original post, and the one preceding it). Otherwise, what you're saying about Loup getting mroe frustrated by humans if the Newmans weren't around definitely makes more sense of the situation! Thanks!
Thank you! I'd forgotten about how that bit tied in. I've corrected the post. Since I'm posting again anyway I do want to emphasize how much Kat accidentally crapped all over Coyote's plan so here's one or two more sub-points that may not be easily apparent... One of the reasons I think Coyote's plan had an excellent chance of working was because of the small population of the Court. We haven't seen the empty streets and halls nearly as much recently because of the evac and the Noobmenz but that used to be featured regularly in the comic. Coyote fanned the flames of distrust with Antimony and the resentment of Ysengrin to make the Court effectively more desolate so they wouldn't think of getting help from anyone else. Then there's the way the Court was run; Coyote was pleased by Antimony's humiliation at the new medium appointment not just because it was entertaining but because it was a teachable moment for both her and Ysengrin about how the Court operates, and also it was a chance to draw Antimony a little further from the Court by making her forest medium instead. When Kat flooded the zone with Noobmenz she not only provided a big safe space from Court surveillance and authority but she introduced a vast number of new variables that Coyote knew nothing about. One of those was Lana, of course. |
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Post by Runningflame on Aug 11, 2023 19:53:28 GMT
Chapter 91 will feature Coyote and Loup (and possibly Zimmy) going at it hammer and tongs in enormous kaiju form. Suddenly, a new shape appears on the horizon. Kat's workshop has been engulfed in the distortion, and she joins the battle in full mecha-angel form.
Coyote did not know this would happen.
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Post by Eily on Aug 12, 2023 9:20:34 GMT
Random wildspec: Since Loup has fallen in love with Lana when he was supposed to fall in love with Annie, Coyote will square that circle by combining Lana and Annie into one person, called Lannie. Ana arrives from somewhere beyond; "it didn't work when he tried it the other way around either, now let's finish this" |
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Post by hp on Aug 14, 2023 4:36:28 GMT
Is it wildspec consensus that, after the ex-robots' belief turns Kat into divine Kathullu, she'll some time down the road just will Jones into having always existed as her "wandering eye", as some sort of ultimate unstopabble perfect tic-toc?
Just like Coyote was created by human beliefs but also was always the one who placed the stars in the sky.
I was rereading the comic this week and got to the point she tells "what she is" to Annie. Her story resonates with some later plot points.
Counterpoint tho. If Kat turns out to be belief-retconned into always-existence, I don't know why would she need a Jones to have eyes around the globe since forever. She could just also be there
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Post by gpvos on Aug 14, 2023 9:31:04 GMT
Is it wildspec consensus that, after the ex-robots' belief turns Kat into divine Kathullu, she'll some time down the road just will Jones into having always existed as her "wandering eye", as some sort of ultimate unstopabble perfect tic-toc? Why would Kat have anything to do with Jones' mode of existence? |
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Post by hp on Aug 14, 2023 17:52:34 GMT
Why would Kat have anything to do with Jones' mode of existence? Some aspects of her (Jones') seem to resonate with other plot points. For instance she's called "Wandering Eye" by Coyote (which suggests some kind of witnessing/ documenting role), a nickname that resembles the Tic-Toc's "thousand eyes". Eyes are Kat's thing hehehe. Besides creating the Tic Toc her ether version even has a whole lot of tubes coming out of her eyes. I call that version "Kathullu" because those tubes look like tentacles in her face. Jones is also anachronistic, looking like a human but having existed way before humans. We've seen that kind of "always having been there" existence in either gods such as Coyote — who was retconned by human belief into always having existed — or the Tic-Toc, sent back in time by Kat using the Norns' well.
Since story-wise, to this moment, no belief system seems to be brewing into Jones or anything like her role, as is happening with "Divine Kat", Jones was possibly placed there in the past. By Norns-like magic? Willed into being there like Coyote's stars? Dunno.
She doesn't seem to have a recognizable human physiology despite looking human or at least is impervious to know modes of perscrutation; that reminded me of the way Kat couldn't initially figure Diego's robots functioning because they didn't use the regular "joints and high torque actuators" most robots used. She seemed to think they were just "giant action figures" but then they added Robot's CPU and all of them started moving.
She can't be harmed or degraded in any way, and she can destroy every know substance but her body. She also doesn't need to sleep or (if I recall correctly) eat. That is like peak physical form. The only hint I noticed towards that kind of thing, story-wise, is how Kat builds upon Diego's already superb work and turns it into actual artificial life. Could she go beyond that and do something even more perfect?
The way Jones describes herself physically also reminded me of the speech that Diego's Robot Kat reanimated made about robots' bodies and minds being different and how that informed the way they saw their "servitude" to humans.
Not to mention Jones, such as Kat, has a particular inability to tune into the ether. If she was some king of Earth avatar or something, why wouldn't she be able to connect to an aspect of life on earth?
TL;DR: Jones is Kathullu's probe
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Post by gpvos on Aug 15, 2023 10:04:02 GMT
Eyes and seeing are a main theme throughout the comic and not limited to Kat at all, see the struck-through-eye wards around ReynardineSivo's cell, Zimmy talking about the ether being about things some people can see and others not, Zimmy's eyes being metaphorically hidden in darkness, etc. etc. etc.
The Tic-Toc was sent back to particular points in time, it didn't exist always in any sense, although it seemed like it initially. I admit seeing some parallels with Jones back then, but not anymore.
I can follow your reasoning regarding Kat creating humanoid bodies and life to some extent, but I don't see the other connections. Jones being as lifeless as a doornail doesn't make her more perfect. Of course, you're free to wildspec anyway!
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Post by hp on Aug 17, 2023 1:49:53 GMT
The Tic-Toc was sent back to particular points in time, it didn't exist always in any sense, although it seemed like it initially. I admit seeing some parallels with Jones back then, but not anymore. (...) Jones being as lifeless as a doornail doesn't make her more perfect. But that's the point. The tic-toc was said by the robots to to having existed before the Court. In the end, it was placed whenever it showed up by Kat, from the future, via the Norns... who also said in their chapter that Kat comes back to them a number of times during her life. How else will she meddle? What else will she displace in time?
As for Jones, I meant "perfect" in the sense of a flawless physical form, it was not some kind of statement about value. She can't be harmed, doesn't need to recharge/eat, is seemingly infinitely strong and is impervious to examination (or maybe her body is just plainly solid yet movable).
We've seen Kat's trajectory while gathering knowledge on types of robot design. She initially thought Diego's robots wouldn't be able to move because she only knew the joint/actuator system. Figuring what made Diego's robots able to move took her to new heights in her design capability, up to the point where she was able to create new life-forms with artificial flesh.
Maybe Jones is one of her projects? A being designed specifically to be durable enough to gather info on the world since its beginning, withstading any kind of weather or any hostile action. A novel mode of existence where the being's body doesn't even need to have parts, it's 100% solid like a statue or a single-substance crystal, yet it's still able to move.
Putting it another way... Jones existence doesn't seem to be a natural occurrence. She was either intentionally put at the beginning of times, or "retconned" into existence by the humanity's power over ether via stories and myths.But in this comic there doesn't seem to be any kind of belief/ religion/ myth which would shape Jones into some kind of avatar of non-ether Earth or something. The case where we anticipate the apotheosis of a new myth/ god is Kat, because we're seeing the plot converging towards it. There's no indication of that around Jones.
Therefore she must have been sent to the past. Who could have the power to create a being like that and put it there? Who has the story shown, until now, to be able to design something that advanced AND to be able to meddle in time? |
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Post by hp on Aug 17, 2023 1:59:30 GMT
I wonder what will Jones' role be in the end. She was created for some purpose, and I hope it will be revealed towards the comic's endgame. If she was created by Kat, I doubt her purpose would end up just to be capable enough and being in the right places to take Annie out of a pickle (like in the case of the Tic-Toc).
She seems to be gathering knowledge of some kind. Why since the beginning of Earth tho? Maybe she is gathering proof (or the lack of proof) on the retroactive impact of the human mind over ether?
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