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Post by blahzor on Jun 23, 2022 6:44:01 GMT
this entire stunt is b/c Loup caught wind of the invites and possible move of the Court and he's doing this to try and get Annie and crew to stop the move when this will just make them want to move even more
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Post by blahzor on Jun 24, 2022 9:07:42 GMT
Kat will make Rey a new body Kat will make the entire world a new body including the earth end game
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Post by speedwell on Jun 24, 2022 9:42:20 GMT
In which I speculate without commitment that Renard, who in the Reynard stories opposes Isengrim and typically gets the girl, may find that the gift of a humanoid body with which to woo his fire-haired dearest friend comes to him without effort or the need to kill its previous occupant. The notion that the wolf toy he now inhabits can be said to "die" in any sense once he transfers himself out of it is quite unlikely and would work in a surprising way if at all, but surprises often happen here, don't they.
If given the opportunity to choose a New body of his own design, I wonder what it would look like. Renard has been shown in-comic to be artistically gifted with a fine eye for detail and composition.
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Post by stef1987 on Jun 24, 2022 10:22:29 GMT
I dunno why there is so much speculation about a new body for Renard, when he has been in that toy body for ages now and there never seemed to be any real interest in getting his body back
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Post by speedwell on Jun 24, 2022 11:14:35 GMT
I dunno why there is so much speculation about a new body for Renard, when he has been in that toy body for ages now and there never seemed to be any real interest in getting his body back I actually mentioned exactly that in a recent page thread. We are allowed to speculate about more than one possible story line, you know.
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Post by speedwell on Jun 24, 2022 19:38:12 GMT
Further spec...
In this story, Annie is the main character, but Renard is the protagonist.
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Post by silicondream on Jun 25, 2022 16:13:32 GMT
In which I speculate without commitment that Renard, who in the Reynard stories opposes Isengrim and typically gets the girl, may find that the gift of a humanoid body with which to woo his fire-haired dearest friend comes to him without effort or the need to kill its previous occupant. I wonder also whether "Jerrek" will happen by and nobly offer up his body as an option. Further spec... In this story, Annie is the main character, but Renard is the protagonist.I'm not a humanities person; remind me of the distinction?
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Post by bedinsis on Jun 25, 2022 16:56:03 GMT
Further spec... In this story, Annie is the main character, but Renard is the protagonist.I'm not a humanities person; remind me of the distinction? Neither am I, but a simple trip to wikipedia got me the definition A protagonist (from Ancient Greek πρωταγωνιστής (prōtagōnistḗs) 'one who plays the first part, chief actor')[1][2][3] is the main character of a story. which made them out to be synonyms. Which is not at all helpful. Had I not access to Wikipedia I'd assume it would be similar to The Shawshank Redemption where Red is the narrator and the viewpoint character but Andy is the protagonist. Or possibly Final Fantasy X where protagonist Tidus is not the main character, Yuna is.
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Post by speedwell on Jun 25, 2022 19:26:23 GMT
Sorry, folks. "Main character" as in arguably the point-of-view character, the narrator in a first-person sense, the character we are intended to identify with. "Protagonist" is usually that character, of course. But when you think of the overall story in the time-honoured "journey" sense, I think that the evidence of the development and timeline of the various characters, when compared, shows a far more coherent and classical story for Renard. Chronologically, he was the first on the scene, even before Coyote arrived. He's arguably had a larger number of completed story arcs, when you count his past interactions; the fact that he had an extensive history with Hetty suggests that she was not his only "friend" and there's a lot we haven't seen. He has a more clearly delineated moral path than even Annie does, and opposes Loup more than any other single character. It could be argued with some justification that the existing Reynard Cycle stories are "true" in the Gunnerkrigg context just as all other mythology is said to be.
Basically, every now and then a story is told about one character from the point of view of other characters. It is not normally handled with such subtlety.
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Post by yellowb on Jun 25, 2022 20:40:47 GMT
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Post by speedwell on Jun 27, 2022 7:47:38 GMT
There has been a lot of water under the bridge since then, so to speak. It is a true statement in the less technical sense of "point of view character".
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Post by todd on Jun 27, 2022 12:41:07 GMT
I've thought that Kat's provided some competition to Annie for "main character/protagonist", especially as the "new bodies for the robots" project proceeded. (Not to mention being more popular with the readership, in part because she's a lot more familiar with pop culture than Annie is.)
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Post by blahzor on Jun 27, 2022 13:35:40 GMT
Kat isn't in the comic enough to be protag Annie and Kat's friendship is the protag tho
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Post by Eily on Jun 27, 2022 15:00:12 GMT
So, wild speculation here we go.
Renard does get a new, humanoid body at some point. And since we now know this to be possible, he also gets to go back in time, because something something contract something. The contract also has the added side effect that Renard doesn't have any memory of his old life, and has trouble speaking, especially to the one whose familiar he used to be. He basically ends up with some kind of mind cage that prevents him from revealing the truth too early.
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Post by speedwell on Jul 2, 2022 14:26:24 GMT
OK, it suddenly fell into place for me how I think this will go. And it's so simple and obvious I almost hate to mention it. I think it will soon occur to either Renard, Annie, or Kat that Jerrek is "inhabited by" Loup. Once this comes to Renard's attention he will feel at some point forced to take Jerrek's body.Possible outcomes if this happens (as this is wildspec one additional step removed, these are wild squared, heh): - Renard will automatically get control of Jerrek and Loup will automatically get kicked out. Annie will then be able to kill Loup with the tooth dagger - while Loup is in possession of Jerrek, he is in essence separated into his main self and a sort of horcrux. The fact that it was necessary to reintegrate Loup may or may not be evident to anyone until after the fact.
- As above, except Renard will have to fight Loup for control of Jerrek. In the process, Loup may be able to take back the eyes-activated body-surf power and possess the toy after Renard vacated it. Loup may or may not choose to hide in toy form like Renard did; if he does, there may be some identity confusion as a result, as Renard gets blamed for what Loup does while in the toy. Or. If Coyote's tooth dagger is still being carried in the toy at the time, the fragment of Coyote may play an unpredictable role. (Unpredictable? Coyote?)
- Renard in Jerrek's body, post-Loup, will become a viable candidate for a romantic relationship with Annie that presents no physical danger to her. It will turn out he is unable to re-possess the wolf toy, although he may want to, either because he no longer has the power or the toy has been destroyed. Though this conjecture is a little uncomfortable it's a... special situation. It makes mythopoeic sense but I'm not shipping it.
- If there was actually ever a Jerrek at the beginning who wasn't really Coyote impersonating a robot, I'm afraid that is water under the bridge and literally out to sea. It's possible we may have been misdirected and Jerrek actually isn't that specific robot at all.
All this assumes that Jerrek is a real New Person (i.e. one that Kat made) and not a lookalike construct made by Loup that won't survive Loup's own demise.
My crystal ball is overheating so I'll stop there, haha.
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Post by todd on Jul 2, 2022 23:50:41 GMT
I got the impression that Jerrek is simply a shape-shifted Loup (like Jolly Elfberry for Coyote, say) rather than an actual New Person body.
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Post by speedwell on Jul 3, 2022 13:35:45 GMT
I got the impression that Jerrek is simply a shape-shifted Loup (like Jolly Elfberry for Coyote, say) rather than an actual New Person body. I certainly hope, then, that if that's the case Renard doesn't try to take "Jerrek's" body. That would suck.Or be brilliant, if it succeeds. But if Jerrek is just a shapeshifted Loup there's no way it can.
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Post by speedwell on Jul 7, 2022 10:23:45 GMT
"Using the tooth dagger to kill Loup" is not semantically identical to "wielding it physically in your hands and stabbing Loup to death violently".
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Post by blahzor on Jul 7, 2022 12:39:32 GMT
stabbing finds a way
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Post by todd on Jul 7, 2022 12:45:18 GMT
"Using the tooth dagger to kill Loup" is not semantically identical to "wielding it physically in your hands and stabbing Loup to death violently". I still wonder whether part of the reason for Coyote's plan was that he thought it irresistible to have the job of cutting up Loup with the tooth-dagger to someone with the surname "Carver".
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Post by silicondream on Jul 7, 2022 13:53:16 GMT
It could be argued with some justification that the existing Reynard Cycle stories are "true" in the Gunnerkrigg context just as all other mythology is said to be. Though our Renard has a very different personality from that one, IMO. Reynard was a more traditional trickster, gleefully dishonorable, a bit sadistic, and prone to killing more livestock than he could eat. If GC Renard was ever that sort of character, he started to change before Coyote even arrived--perhaps around the time he started to see humans as something other than ants.Renard's life journey has converged with ordinary humanity, while Antimony's has diverged from it. I wonder how much of that is just the "etheric advantage," so to speak. When you're a walking story in the first place, it must be easy to hog the narrative spotlight. Etherics are almost designed to fulfill human expectations, whereas humans themselves are evolved to violate them. "Using the tooth dagger to kill Loup" is not semantically identical to "wielding it physically in your hands and stabbing Loup to death violently". Absolutely. For instance, she could stab Loup to death surgically and serenely, or slice him to pieces instead of stabbing, or reverse her grip and club him to death with the pommel. She could also tie the tooth to her shoe and kick him to death, with or without surrounding it in a sheath of superheated plasma first. ...sorry, I know that's not where you were going with that. But I didn't realize until now how entertaining it would be if Annie split herself into, say, 32 copies this time and then went Ides of March on Loup's derriere. No subtlety, no moral/philosophical lessons, just a completely OOC orgy of fire and butchery. Alternately, convince Loup to perceive all of his teeth as god-killing daggers and then let him self-destruct Agrajag-style.
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Post by speedwell on Jul 14, 2022 17:14:54 GMT
...sorry, I know that's not where you were going with that. But I didn't realize until now how entertaining it would be if Annie split herself into, say, 32 copies this time and then went Ides of March on Loup's derriere. No subtlety, no moral/philosophical lessons, just a completely OOC orgy of fire and butchery. Umm, OK, haha. I was thinking of a more creative solution in the spirit of the classic "how to measure the height of a building using a barometer" story. www.mrao.cam.ac.uk/~steve/astrophysics/webpages/barometer_story.htm
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Post by Runningflame on Jul 21, 2022 0:40:33 GMT
Chronologically, Renard was the first on the scene, even before Coyote arrived. If you want to get technical, Shadow 2 and Robot were the first on the scene (besides Annie). Though I don't think I would peg either of them as a protagonist. Robot is looking more like a potential antagonist at this point.
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Post by speedwell on Jul 21, 2022 8:24:23 GMT
Chronologically, Renard was the first on the scene, even before Coyote arrived. If you want to get technical, Shadow 2 and Robot were the first on the scene (besides Annie). Though I don't think I would peg either of them as a protagonist. Robot is looking more like a potential antagonist at this point. "Of the two of them, Renard was before Coyote."
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 21, 2022 11:49:15 GMT
Chronologically, Renard was the first on the scene, even before Coyote arrived. If you want to get technical, Shadow 2 and Robot were the first on the scene (besides Annie). Though I don't think I would peg either of them as a protagonist. Robot is looking more like a potential antagonist at this point. I think you two are talking about two different scenes - one, the story beginning on page 1 of the comic, the other the grander story including what happened in the Court's past. Although, while Renard and Ysengrin were in Britain before Coyote, they were all three together when coming to Gillitie.
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Post by blahzor on Jul 25, 2022 12:51:12 GMT
I was just thinking doesn't Aaja need her necklace to access her computer like how Donnie needs it ot be a sub-user? If so what is Kat using to access her computer she seems to not need one and doing it completely with her mind and I doubt she had some sort of surgery for it
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Post by warrl on Jul 25, 2022 18:26:29 GMT
Although, while Renard and Ysengrin were in Britain before Coyote, they were all three together when coming to Gillitie. Actually, Renard and Ysengrin are French - or maybe Belgian-French - apparently originating in the 1200s. And the timing is such that it's somewhat unlikely for their stories to have spread to England for the next few hundred years. (There was a little political problem: after the Norman Conquest in 1066, the Duke of Normandy - who owed fealty to the King of France - was also the King of England, who owed fealty only to God. This condition of divided allegiance persisted in practice until 1204, and in law until 1259... beginning a long series of frequent wars between France and England that lasted from 1109 into the 1800s. They were at war for at least half of the 1100s, and the 1200s, and the 1300s... and then the pace slowed only slightly.) I looked in the Gunnerkrigg wiki, and found no indication of where the two were living immediately before Coyote invited them to go with him to Gillitie Wood.
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 25, 2022 22:16:33 GMT
Although, while Renard and Ysengrin were in Britain before Coyote, they were all three together when coming to Gillitie. Actually, Renard and Ysengrin are French - or maybe Belgian-French - apparently originating in the 1200s. And the timing is such that it's somewhat unlikely for their stories to have spread to England for the next few hundred years. (There was a little political problem: after the Norman Conquest in 1066, the Duke of Normandy - who owed fealty to the King of France - was also the King of England, who owed fealty only to God. This condition of divided allegiance persisted in practice until 1204, and in law until 1259... beginning a long series of frequent wars between France and England that lasted from 1109 into the 1800s. They were at war for at least half of the 1100s, and the 1200s, and the 1300s... and then the pace slowed only slightly.) I looked in the Gunnerkrigg wiki, and found no indication of where the two were living immediately before Coyote invited them to go with him to Gillitie Wood. It might be that they met in France, but when their meeting is depicted in the side comic "Coyote", and Coyote asks Ysengrin to tell him about the local mythical dogs, Ysengrin only talks about British dogs. That's why I assumed they met in Britain. I also don't see why they couldn't have gone there for a while. After all, Coyote had left his native grounds as well when they met.
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Post by blahzor on Jul 26, 2022 2:41:59 GMT
Actually, Renard and Ysengrin are French - or maybe Belgian-French - apparently originating in the 1200s. And the timing is such that it's somewhat unlikely for their stories to have spread to England for the next few hundred years. (There was a little political problem: after the Norman Conquest in 1066, the Duke of Normandy - who owed fealty to the King of France - was also the King of England, who owed fealty only to God. This condition of divided allegiance persisted in practice until 1204, and in law until 1259... beginning a long series of frequent wars between France and England that lasted from 1109 into the 1800s. They were at war for at least half of the 1100s, and the 1200s, and the 1300s... and then the pace slowed only slightly.) I looked in the Gunnerkrigg wiki, and found no indication of where the two were living immediately before Coyote invited them to go with him to Gillitie Wood. It might be that they met in France, but when their meeting is depicted in the side comic "Coyote", and Coyote asks Ysengrin to tell him about the local mythical dogs, Ysengrin only talks about British dogs. That's why I assumed they met in Britain. I also don't see why they couldn't have gone there for a while. After all, Coyote had left his native grounds as well when they met.
Due to their size and scale to the human ants they didn't move far to look over the ridge to see the Court. So they could be as far as southeast France
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Post by shaihulud on Jul 26, 2022 3:17:36 GMT
Coyote can be in more than one place at a time. Because he's Coyote and so he can do that.
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