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Post by todd on May 27, 2021 23:47:52 GMT
(And perhaps when Kat's machine angel powers are in action, the same thing happens, perhaps causing Loup to mistake one for the other.) I'd thought a bit about the scene in "The Goose-Bone" where Loup is talking about the Court being up to something - something he glimpsed near Reynardine. Reynardine was with Kat at the time, suggesting that this was Kat's experiments. They aren't official Court projects - but all that Loup knows is that they're on Court property; he's assuming that this is the Court's doing, without considering the possibility that it might be a Court student acting independently and without the Court's knowledge. Though it raises the question: what if it turns out that it's Kat's projects, rather than the Omega Device, that have been endangering the Forest - meaning that Annie, instead of confronting the shadowy, sneaky Court over this, would have to confront her best friend instead?
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Post by warrl on May 28, 2021 0:30:36 GMT
Here's a wild one:
a) the Court is trying to create the Omega Device.
b) they've succeeded.
c) but they don't know they've succeeded.
d) it's Kat's mech-angel form.
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Post by pyradonis on May 28, 2021 13:40:06 GMT
I wonder how much the goals of the Court have changed since the attack. Whatever the Omega device was about, and it was probably about extracting and repurposing ether constructively (with "Omega" being a reference to the level of secrecy rather than a descriptor of final purpose) perhaps they've recently been thinking about using ether destructively. Scientific advancement is neat but tends to pale when faced with an existential threat from an arguably insane, probably untrustworthy, and unpredictable enemy who launched a surprise attack that forced them to flee and relocate. Wouldn't surprise me if they're thinking about how big a boom they can make with the Omega-level tech. Which could give a tone of irony to Loup's attack on the Court; he's made the Court more predisposed to use the Omega Device to wipe out him and the rest of the forest-folk, the very fate he was trying to avert by attacking the Court. (Which might match the way the Court's own attacks on the Forest, such as deceiving Reynardine, tended to backfire as well.) Yes, his problem here is that he is thinking like a canid - intimidate your rival enough, or best them in a fight, and they will submit (if part of the pack) or stay out of your territory (if an outsider). But humans do not work that way. Many humans just let their anger fester until one day they come back with a stronger weapon and/or more humans to support them. And often their plan then is to destroy their perceived enemy completely so they can never be threatened again.
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Post by sebastian on May 28, 2021 14:12:32 GMT
I don't know if it count as a speculation, but here it is. when lessons restart at the court Antimony will go back at her old class with Kat and the other friends. reasons. It make sense. Loup's disruption held the classes back, while Annie was tutored by her father, (twice as fast when there were two Annies) at this point she probably completed all the 9 year material and the gap with the 10 year students would not be that wide. Not enough to justify losing a whole year. it is thematically appropriate. if this happen everything that was brought away from her during 'The Tree' will be given back to her. And most important. after all this time we know practically nothing of Annie's present class and classmates. if she was going to be there for the next 3-4 years I'd thought that we had seen something of them, some recurring faces, a names or two, some interactions, you know... Something! But the closest we got to this are Generic Girl #1 and Generic Boy #1 that seems both to think that Annie is hot. So I don't think the 9 years are here to stay.
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Post by todd on May 28, 2021 17:09:27 GMT
I don't know if it count as a speculation, but here it is. when lessons restart at the court Antimony will go back at her old class with Kat and the other friends. That's assuming we will see lessons restarting at the Court; it's possible that the shutdown from Loup's attack was intended as "the end of the school story portion of 'Gunnerkrigg Court'". By the time things have been straightened out, the Court might have wound up changing so much as to become something entirely different.
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Post by todd on May 29, 2021 1:43:16 GMT
I just reread the next-to-most-recent chapter (the one about Zimmy that ended with the two Annies being rejoined), and noticed that they described the Court's project (clearly the Omega Device) as a way of seeing into the "unseen world" (i.e. the ether). And after thinking about that for a moment, I wondered if that might be how the Omega Device could cause such disruptions to the etheric - peering through it at the etheric world changes it, a la the "observer effect".
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Post by blahzor on May 30, 2021 6:06:40 GMT
Here's a wild one: a) the Court is trying to create the Omega Device. b) they've succeeded. c) but they don't know they've succeeded. d) it's Kat's mech-angel form. e) they thought Annie would be the Omega Device
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Post by todd on May 30, 2021 12:24:15 GMT
The main difficulty with "Kat is the Omega Device" theory is that the Court have paid very little attention to her, which would be unlikely if she really was the Omega Device (the only ones who know about her big robot project are Juliette and Anthony, and both in a non-official capacity). Unless the Court's doing a really good job of hiding its attention to her.
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Post by Druplesnubb on May 30, 2021 12:51:07 GMT
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Post by saardvark on May 30, 2021 14:39:12 GMT
true, but they've been interested in Omega for long before that. At best, they may view Kat's work as something that might be useful for the Omega project. Its unlikely Kat is Omega, IMHO, or there would have been much more interest in her all along....
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Post by maxptc on May 30, 2021 15:34:42 GMT
I don't think Cat is the Omega device, just that it's something almost anyone can use and Kat is going to take it over to bend reality and make herself into the Angel, which is why she is already the Angel since it bends reality. Why would the Court be interested in her when they and she have no clue they are going to do that.
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Post by alevice on May 30, 2021 16:30:45 GMT
I think the Omega device might actually be linked to Jones. It seems it is deviced as a way to maniulate reality perhaps through etheric methods. To the point it manipulates space AND time. So far every interaction that seems to be related to Omega resarch has been about perhaps controlling this (snails getting at it, and all the times Zeta has lost control)
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Post by warrl on May 30, 2021 21:02:04 GMT
The main difficulty with "Kat is the Omega Device" theory is that the Court have paid very little attention to her, which would be unlikely if she really was the Omega Device Not a problem if they aren't aware that she's the Omega Device - there is some outward sign they were expecting that either didn't happen, or they somehow missed it. As far as I can recall, neither of those individuals is aware of Kat's Mech Angel form. We know Zimmy is aware of it, Paz and the seraph robots (who, having been ordered to never let Kat see them again, are probably staying away from the Court - and weren't that friendly with Court officialdom before) saw it toward the end of chapter 49, and Annie saw it in chapter 60... that's a rather short list, and you may note that Kat herself is not on it.
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Post by blahzor on May 30, 2021 21:44:01 GMT
The main difficulty with "Kat is the Omega Device" theory is that the Court have paid very little attention to her, which would be unlikely if she really was the Omega Device (the only ones who know about her big robot project are Juliette and Anthony, and both in a non-official capacity). Unless the Court's doing a really good job of hiding its attention to her. they both Kat and Annie have had shadowmen on them except Kat's shadowmen don't report what they are doing b/c she could make a body for Arthur. and on top of it Annie has Jones interacting with her more than anyone else seen.
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Post by todd on May 31, 2021 0:53:56 GMT
While I'm still doubtful that Kat is the Omega Device, I did notice one potentially ominous element: in the next-to-most-recent chapter (the one where the two Annies get recombined), Zimmy says that the Omega Device is a means of seeing the unseen world, and in "Moving", she says that Kat is starting to see the unseen world.
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Post by Druplesnubb on May 31, 2021 8:55:25 GMT
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Post by todd on May 31, 2021 12:45:47 GMT
I've noticed that as well. On the other hand, Loup is assuming that this something near Reynardine is an official Court project because it comes from the Court, and he doesn't know enough about its internal goings-on to consider the possibility that it's being done by a Court student on her own accord, without any official involvement by the Court itself.
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Post by sebastian on May 31, 2021 19:20:55 GMT
Assuming that the omega device is related to Kat, maybe it have something to do with Kat's ability to see a 'simplified' version of the Ether
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Post by sebastian on May 31, 2021 20:49:24 GMT
re-reading the comic I found an interesting point. Loup says here, talking about what he have seen in the Court and that could or could not be the Omega device, that it function the opposite of the branches Coyote constructed in the ether. I think he is talking of Kat ability to simplify the Ether I've mentioned in the post above, and that is why the closer he look the less he sees, because close to Kat the Ether is simplified and there is less to see. Now if that is actually related to the Omega device or Loup is jumping to conclusions is all to see.
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Post by todd on Jun 2, 2021 0:48:36 GMT
I reread Chapter Fourteen today, and in it, Ysengrin is convinced that the TicToc was the Court's doing, identifying it as Court technology. He was partly right about it - the TicToc was the product of a member of the Court using its technology, just not "official Court".
Was Kat already working on the TicToc when Loup got that glimpse of something that might have been her in the Goosebone chapter? That chapter came after the encounter with the Administrator and Clippy that led to her making that bird, so she might have started working on it by that time.
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Post by Gemminie on Jun 2, 2021 4:05:15 GMT
I reread Chapter Fourteen today, and in it, Ysengrin is convinced that the TicToc was the Court's doing, identifying it as Court technology. He was partly right about it - the TicToc was the product of a member of the Court using its technology, just not "official Court". Was Kat already working on the TicToc when Loup got that glimpse of something that might have been her in the Goosebone chapter? That chapter came after the encounter with the Administrator and Clippy that led to her making that bird, so she might have started working on it by that time. She was almost certainly still working on the Tic-Toc in chapter 73. Kat says she started building the Tic-Toc as a side project, deliberately deciding not to use her computer's fabrication system. That fab system was added sometime during the six months that Forest Annie was in the Forest. She must therefore have started on the Tic-Toc sometime after the fab system came online, but six months is plenty of time to finish one project and get started on another. Then there's Kat's encounter with Arthur, who's in his new body (meaning this must be after chapter 71) and recognizes the Tic-Toc from robot myth, and Kat explicitly says she wasn't done with the Tic-Toc yet at that point. My best guess is that this incident occurs shortly after chapter 71, possibly simultaneously with the events of chapter 72 (which Kat isn't involved in). Now, Kat might have finished the Tic-Toc right after that incident, but that's an outside possibility; it's more likely that she's just finished it when the Annies first see it in chapter 76, as it's still not entirely assembled. It's highly likely that Kat's still in the process of working on it during chapter 73. However, it seems unlikely that she was actually physically working on it then, as she was with Renard that day, and I think Renard would probably have found it remarkable enough to say something about it to the Annies if he'd seen it. That doesn't preclude Kat's working on its circuit design or coding, though, because that wouldn't bring a recognizable picture of it onto her screen.
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Post by todd on Jun 7, 2021 0:21:40 GMT
One thought on - "If Loup really is a plan of Coyote's to attack the Court without Coyote breaking his promise to leave it alone" (I've seen that hypothesized elsewhere, though I don't know if that might indeed be the case - I recently had one speculation on why Coyote might want Loup to be the one to do that (besides just "Finding loopholes in a contract is more fun than breaking it").
Say a lot of humans get killed in an attack upon the Court. If Coyote's the one responsible, their dying thoughts as they enter the ether of the horror and pain caused by the destruction he'd wrought might reshape him and his "story" into a nightmarish - and decidedly unfunny - monster rather than a mischievous trickster, a transformation that Coyote doesn't want. (Such a transformation for a trickster is a possibility - consider, as I mentioned in another thread, how Loki went from playing pranks on the gods like cutting off all Sif's hair to becoming the murderer of Balder and the traitor who sided with the gods' enemies at Ragnarok.) But if Loup does it - he's not Coyote but something else, so he's in no danger of changing Coyote's story. (Presumably Coyote made certain that that building he knocked over was an empty one, to guard against that eventuality.)
(Though there's one obstacle with the "Loup was Coyote's loophole scheme for handling the Court" strategy; Coyote's original plan was for his replacement to be Renard, who's far more favorably disposed towards humans than Ysengrin and wouldn't have been as likely to go berserk against the Court. Ysengrin, the guy with the genuine bitter feelings towards humans, was Plan B.)
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Post by maxptc on Jun 7, 2021 1:34:17 GMT
(Though there's one obstacle with the "Loup was Coyote's loophole scheme for handling the Court" strategy; Coyote's original plan was for his replacement to be Renard, who's far more favorably disposed towards humans than Ysengrin and wouldn't have been as likely to go berserk against the Court. Ysengrin, the guy with the genuine bitter feelings towards humans, was Plan B.) Unless Coyete figured that Rey would also turn against the humants if he fused with him and gained knowledge of the omega device as well as Surmas plot to betray him. Maybe it was meant to be more of a long con style attack since the waters would still be impossible to pass, which a Rey/Coyete hybrid would be more suited to then a Ys/Coyete Loup.
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 7, 2021 15:20:28 GMT
(Though there's one obstacle with the "Loup was Coyote's loophole scheme for handling the Court" strategy; Coyote's original plan was for his replacement to be Renard, who's far more favorably disposed towards humans than Ysengrin and wouldn't have been as likely to go berserk against the Court. Ysengrin, the guy with the genuine bitter feelings towards humans, was Plan B.) I think Coyote is the type who, when he has to change a component of a plan, immediately starts thinking about which new possibilities this opens up.
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Post by aline on Jun 7, 2021 16:44:34 GMT
(Though there's one obstacle with the "Loup was Coyote's loophole scheme for handling the Court" strategy; Coyote's original plan was for his replacement to be Renard, who's far more favorably disposed towards humans than Ysengrin and wouldn't have been as likely to go berserk against the Court. Ysengrin, the guy with the genuine bitter feelings towards humans, was Plan B.) We have no reason to think that Coyote ever planned for Renard to replace him. Renard being cleverer and less crazy than Ysengrin wouldn't have killed Coyote and he was never groomed to do so like Ysengrin was. Coyote's plan regarding Renard when he gave him some of his powers was to push Rey into the Court's trap, probably half for fun and half to teach him a lesson.
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 8, 2021 7:48:08 GMT
(Though there's one obstacle with the "Loup was Coyote's loophole scheme for handling the Court" strategy; Coyote's original plan was for his replacement to be Renard, who's far more favorably disposed towards humans than Ysengrin and wouldn't have been as likely to go berserk against the Court. Ysengrin, the guy with the genuine bitter feelings towards humans, was Plan B.) We have no reason to think that Coyote ever planned for Renard to replace him. Renard being cleverer and less crazy than Ysengrin wouldn't have killed Coyote and he was never groomed to do so like Ysengrin was. Coyote's plan regarding Renard when he gave him some of his powers was to push Rey into the Court's trap, probably half for fun and half to teach him a lesson. Whether he really made any elaborate plan for this, though...
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Post by aline on Jun 8, 2021 9:58:10 GMT
We have no reason to think that Coyote ever planned for Renard to replace him. Renard being cleverer and less crazy than Ysengrin wouldn't have killed Coyote and he was never groomed to do so like Ysengrin was. Coyote's plan regarding Renard when he gave him some of his powers was to push Rey into the Court's trap, probably half for fun and half to teach him a lesson. Whether he really made any elaborate plan for this, though...
I'd forgotten about that! And I now remember Coyote's attempt to give his powers to Renard prompted Surma to seduce and capture him, so Coyote's first attempts were before Renard fell in love with her. So he did have this kind of plan, but I think that idea never took off. The way I read that panel is "Renard was too busy chasing Surma's skirts to be interested in a power struggle with Coyote". The timeline I think was: - Coyote tried tempting Renard into taking some of his powers - Renard wasn't interested, but Surma heard of it - Worried about Renard accepting Coyote's offer, Surma successfully seduced Renard to lure him into the Court - Coyote found out about Surma's scheme and Renard's feelings and he nudged Renard by offering him the gift of possession, claiming it would let him be with Surma. At this point he knew Renard would likely get captured - Blinded by his feelings, Renard finally gave in to Coyote and fell in both traps Maybe Coyote was seeding for the long game, thinking that someday he'd free Renard and reveal to him he'd been tricked. Then an angry, bitter Renard would finally turn against the Court and Coyote and fulfill his role as Coyote's murderer? Actually... if Annie hadn't showed up and befriended Rey, that scenario isn't at all unlikely. Huh...
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 8, 2021 12:14:47 GMT
Whether he really made any elaborate plan for this, though...
I'd forgotten about that! And I now remember Coyote's attempt to give his powers to Renard prompted Surma to seduce and capture him, so Coyote's first attempts were before Renard fell in love with her. So he did have this kind of plan, but I think that idea never took off. The way I read that panel is "Renard was too busy chasing Surma's skirts to be interested in a power struggle with Coyote". The timeline I think was: - Coyote tried tempting Renard into taking some of his powers - Renard wasn't interested, but Surma heard of it - Worried about Renard accepting Coyote's offer, Surma successfully seduced Renard to lure him into the Court - Coyote found out about Surma's scheme and Renard's feelings and he nudged Renard by offering him the gift of possession, claiming it would let him be with Surma. At this point he knew Renard would likely get captured - Blinded by his feelings, Renard finally gave in to Coyote and fell in both traps Maybe Coyote was seeding for the long game, thinking that someday he'd free Renard and reveal to him he'd been tricked. Then an angry, bitter Renard would finally turn against the Court and Coyote and fulfill his role as Coyote's murderer? Actually... if Annie hadn't showed up and befriended Rey, that scenario isn't at all unlikely. Huh... Makes sense to me. Add to that the scene in the Coyote side comic, where Coyote offers Renard power for the first time, and Renard politely declines, fully content in observing the humans instead of affecting their lives. Coyote himself tells Annie about how for many years he had sought to make Renard powerful like himself, but Renard always refused. The Court played right into Coyote's hand when they ordered Surma to seduce Renard, finally giving the latter a strong incentive to accept the possession power.
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Post by silicondream on Jun 9, 2021 20:21:59 GMT
Coyote's a raging narcissist, but he's also good at being undercover. Inside all of us. He just has to not make us do anything.
Renard's too empathetic for that job. He successfully leaps, but his target dies because he can never say goodbye to them. In Peter Ustinov's voice.
Ysengrin thought empathy was something you can eat, but Loup noticed the Annies making fun of him and teased them back. Progress!
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Post by Gemminie on Jun 11, 2021 16:56:10 GMT
Wild speculation of the day: Coyote is alive and well and living in Arizona. One version of Coyote stayed home in the Americas so he could keep bothering everyone there, while the other one went abroad, and he can do that, because he's Coyote. There's no reason to believe that that version of him died – after all, Ysengrin didn't go there to eat that Coyote. Of course, did that version of Coyote travel the world gathering powers? I'd guess not; I think the Coyote who stayed home still looks like the original Coyote and may not have expanded his power set, although perhaps only because he hasn't thought to do so yet. So in a way, the Coyote who's been a part of the GC story is really just a runaway power-feedback loop accidentally started by a crow.
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