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Post by sebastian on May 4, 2021 8:22:45 GMT
Completely out of the blue (forgive me if this has been proposed before): Tony was always a scientist and polymath. But I suspect he didn't narrow his specialisation to surgery until after the potential of having a baby solidified into an inevitable thing. I find it a bit odd, as well, that surgery was the exact specialisation he chose. Immunology, pathology, OB/GYN, even complementary medicine would have made so much more sense. (I guess it would not exactly have furthered the plot if he had tried to create a robot with Kat by engineering the common cold virus or cooking up a tincture, heh.) I had the same idea, except I think that he started focusing on medicine the moment Surma explained him that giving birth would have (eventually) killed her and put all his efforts into trying to save her. (IMO that was before she got pregnant. They didn't went in blind). And why surgery? probably because Tony thought that the fire elemental part was something physical that could be removed, at least in part. Remember that Antony had no patience with ethereal sciences
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V
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I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
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Post by V on May 5, 2021 9:31:20 GMT
On a tangential note, what I've always found puzzling is how various peeps consider Annie an "afterlife guide" long before she formally agrees to anything. I take it that there is a difference between helping here and there and actually being a part of the gang. Surma's would be the first case, and the same for pre-chapter 60 Annie. I think there must be some exchange between her and Muut that we did not see in the comic. I don't recall the conditions of her being "one of them" were discussed at any point, but she knows the price and knows what they want, something we don't really. But I'll be happy to be proven wrong about this. Antimony first meets Muut in the hospital and a little later helps other psychopomps there. I suspect this is why some entities presume that she's already an afterlife guide. Actually, it's more than an assumption on their side: it's the way how they read her antimony symbol in #1305 and #1339 (in the former the guy could still be referring to her fire elemental crown but in the latter the middle one is very explicitly highlighted). But I don't think it has been explained why they think that's what it is, as all other signs would imply it's just their family thing, and certainly it has not been associated with any other psychopomps. On the other hand, if it was only the former, or if it meant affinity to fire control or something, it would be quite redundant next to the crown.
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Post by pyradonis on May 5, 2021 11:56:16 GMT
Actually, it's more than an assumption on their side: it's the way how they read her antimony symbol in #1305 and #1339 (in the former the guy could still be referring to her fire elemental crown but in the latter the middle one is very explicitly highlighted). But I don't think it has been explained why they think that's what it is, as all other signs would imply it's just their family thing, and certainly it has not been associated with any other psychopomps. On the other hand, if it was only the former, or if it meant affinity to fire control or something, it would be quite redundant next to the crown. Also, if it were just a family symbol, one would expect Kat to have a symbol for her family too, but she only has the mark of the Creator. So it seems every symbol seen is a sort of Etheric badge.
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Post by maxptc on May 7, 2021 13:15:12 GMT
Has Kats final form being the Omega device been brought up?
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Post by Gemminie on May 7, 2021 16:50:43 GMT
Has Kats final form being the Omega device been brought up? It seems to me that the Court wouldn't be content with the Omega Device being a person. The Court wants a machine that anyone can operate (perhaps with sufficient training). According to Anja, at least, the Court finds her computer useless because it requires people with specific talents to operate it. The Court doesn't want ethereal tenet; it wants replicable results, although it's fine experimenting on and observing people with unexplainable etheric talents, because it's trying to figure out how to replicate their results reliably. If the Omega Device they've been working toward all these years/centuries is a person, then as soon as that person dies, they lose their Omega Device. As soon as that person decides they don't want to cooperate, they lose their Omega Device. As soon as that person decides they don't like the Court telling them what to do, they turn the Court into a bunch of sea snails. I don't think the Omega Device is just a person with super powerful etheric abilities; it's a machine that even a non-etherically-powered person can operate. My opinion, of course; as usual, we'll see.
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Post by maxptc on May 7, 2021 17:46:53 GMT
Has Kats final form being the Omega device been brought up? It seems to me that the Court wouldn't be content with the Omega Device being a person. The Court wants a machine that anyone can operate (perhaps with sufficient training). According to Anja, at least, the Court finds her computer useless because it requires people with specific talents to operate it. The Court doesn't want ethereal tenet; it wants replicable results, although it's fine experimenting on and observing people with unexplainable etheric talents, because it's trying to figure out how to replicate their results reliably. If the Omega Device they've been working toward all these years/centuries is a person, then as soon as that person dies, they lose their Omega Device. As soon as that person decides they don't want to cooperate, they lose their Omega Device. As soon as that person decides they don't like the Court telling them what to do, they turn the Court into a bunch of sea snails. I don't think the Omega Device is just a person with super powerful etheric abilities; it's a machine that even a non-etherically-powered person can operate. My opinion, of course; as usual, we'll see. I don't think it's a person/kat, I think it's a ethereal device Kat takes over to change the course of the Court for the better, which in turn turns her retroactively into the robot angle with all sorts of etheric shenanigans.
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mu695
New Member
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Post by mu695 on May 7, 2021 20:18:51 GMT
I'm wondering if Tom came up with Tony's problem very early on in the comic and recently discovered that it was very difficult to resolve it. I'm starting to suspect that the two Annies plot only exists to facilitate the rest of the cast's discovery of Tony's problem. However, I can't get past the counterpoint of "how does a guy with Tony's issues manage to teach a class?".
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Post by maxptc on May 7, 2021 21:06:21 GMT
I'm wondering if Tom came up with Tony's problem very early on in the comic and recently discovered that it was very difficult to resolve it. I'm starting to suspect that the two Annies plot only exists to facilitate the rest of the cast's discovery of Tony's problem. However, I can't get past the counterpoint of "how does a guy with Tony's issues manage to teach a class?". Thats a interesting observation, I like it and it's as good a reason for the split storyline as I've seen. As for the counterpoint, for students not attached to him personally like Annie, I don't think he would be that different from a lot teachers. Reserved, strict and fact based in class, (cause of the group instead of teaching style but you wouldn't know that as a student) but approachable and friendly one on one if you need to talk to him outside of class. Sounds like a bunch of teachers I had at a glance.
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yinglung
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It's only a tatter of mime.
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Post by yinglung on May 7, 2021 21:40:08 GMT
I'm wondering if Tom came up with Tony's problem very early on in the comic and recently discovered that it was very difficult to resolve it. I'm starting to suspect that the two Annies plot only exists to facilitate the rest of the cast's discovery of Tony's problem. However, I can't get past the counterpoint of "how does a guy with Tony's issues manage to teach a class?". I think Annie's attempts to speak to Coyote and Ysengrin while talking to Loup gives Loup motive to split Annie in a way that she can recombine somewhat easily. He can then say, "Which firehead girl am I talking to now? I wish to speak to the one who stayed in the forest longer." and Annie would understand his point of view as a gestalt. As for how Tony teaches a class despite his interpersonal difficulties, that's rather simple. He doesn't need to share his feelings with the class in order to teach them chemistry, biology, whatever. Playing the role of a no-nonsense teacher is much easier than trying to actually connect to people on an emotional level.
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Post by silicondream on May 8, 2021 9:07:41 GMT
Completely out of the blue (forgive me if this has been proposed before): Tony was always a scientist and polymath. But I suspect he didn't narrow his specialisation to surgery until after the potential of having a baby solidified into an inevitable thing. I find it a bit odd, as well, that surgery was the exact specialisation he chose. Immunology, pathology, OB/GYN, even complementary medicine would have made so much more sense. (I guess it would not exactly have furthered the plot if he had tried to create a robot with Kat by engineering the common cold virus or cooking up a tincture, heh.) And why surgery? probably because Tony thought that the fire elemental part was something physical that could be removed, at least in part. Or because it could be managed with a physical implant, or because Surma might need surgical intervention during delivery. If there was going to be any reason to cut her open, I'm sure Tony wanted to be involved. In addition, if the family wanted to stay at a non-Court hospital indefinitely, becoming a surgeon was the best way to make that happen. Surgeons are typically considered indispensable and (bless their hearts) everyone else kind of expects them to be assholes. If Tony was good at his job they’d never ask him to leave, no matter how personally unpopular he was. I don't think the Omega Device is just a person with super powerful etheric abilities; it's a machine that even a non-etherically-powered person can operate. My opinion, of course; as usual, we'll see. I’ll gamble it on it being a mostly conceptual machine, a mathematical-ish theory for altering reality--if you can learn it, you can use it. That was essentially the idea of Renaissance natural magic, as well as a popular interpretation in modern chaos magic. (And a favorite theme of C.S. Lewis, as I should mention on the appropriate thread.) Tony’s the ideal researcher for that sort of project because he’s, well, a Renaissance man. He’s not a super-engineer on par with Diego or Kat, but he’s a dedicated and wide-ranging observer and theorist. The work we see him doing for the Court is pretty much all natural history, which to medieval and Renaissance thinkers was closely allied with divination. Even his failures are Renaissancey; his failed quest has strong echoes of Faust. Whatever the Omega Device turns out to be, I just hope we see Annie go “wait a second, ‘device’ has an ‘i’ in it”, and then Renard gets to be a proper god for five minutes. I'm wondering if Tom came up with Tony's problem very early on in the comic and recently discovered that it was very difficult to resolve it. I'm starting to suspect that the two Annies plot only exists to facilitate the rest of the cast's discovery of Tony's problem. I would guess that it’s the other way around; Tom wanted to have Annie struggle with questions of identity and acceptance, and Tony needed to pose a lasting challenge for her there. But yeah, has anyone heard Tom comment on the initial order of character design? maxptc and yinglung already said most of this, but he doesn’t have to teach it happily. Tony’s perfectly capable of speaking to an audience as long as he can stare into the middle distance and act wooden, and frankly that’s how half the science instructors at university lecture anyway. (Including me, early on.) The Court probably doesn’t care about Tony being a rock star lecturer as long as he knows the material and fulfills his research obligations on the side. In lab and office hours, Tony can work with students in ones and twos.
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Post by todd on May 8, 2021 18:34:24 GMT
Let's not go for the "i" in "device" pun, please; that would be too crazy.
I do like the comparison of Tony to Faustus - if with the caution that Tony (and the Court) are doing what they do in order to understand the ether scientifically, whereas Faustus was more interested in power.
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Post by silicondream on May 8, 2021 19:41:02 GMT
Let's not go for the "i" in "device" pun, please; that would be too crazy. Hey, he's a trickster. Don't blame him for not doing your homework. In some tellings, yes. But in most Faust is motivated by true love of knowledge at first, and in (for instance) the Goethe version he largely stays that way throughout.
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Post by madjack on May 10, 2021 7:05:55 GMT
Now that the page has updated in the right order, here's a really horrible wildspec: If Annie visits the Forest again and Loup discovers Annie's memories of her father opening up to her, I wouldn't put it past him to extract them from her head and hold them hostage until she does whatever he wants.
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Post by Gemminie on May 10, 2021 18:19:14 GMT
Wild speculation for today: Annie could have put her fingerprint on the Moon without Coyote's help. Coyote only focused Annie's attention on the Moon. He didn't even tell her to poke it. And when she did, a rogue configuration of solar winds occurred that carved her fingerprint there. But she did all of that herself. After all, Coyote doesn't exist. Annie is far, far more powerful than anyone suspects*, and the fact that her firepower has doubled now that she's recombined only means that she's found a way to access more of what she can really do. The question of how it could have doubled when she was actually only split and recombined is meaningless. Someday she'll be powerful enough to reach up and sign her name on the Moon if she wants to. Though I'm not sure why she'd want to; I just mean that she'll be able to. * I think that some higher-ups in the Court may suspect, after watching Surma and then Annie for several years now, and that's why they want to keep Annie out of the Forest and away from talking to Coyote. They want to be the ones to manipulate and influence the Scion of Fire, not Coyote. This may also be why Surma told Annie so little about her family and her past – the less she knows, the less power she'll have, and the more the Court and Coyote will leave her alone to live her life. As usual I don't know how true this is. I just like to speculate.
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V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
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Post by V on May 10, 2021 18:43:05 GMT
Someday she'll be powerful enough to reach up and sign her name on the Moon if she wants to. Though I'm not sure why she'd want to; I just mean that she'll be able to. I want this to happen! :-D
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Post by warrl on May 10, 2021 19:00:55 GMT
Tony’s the ideal researcher for that sort of project because he’s, well, a Renaissance man. He’s not a super-engineer on par with Diego or Kat, but he’s a dedicated and wide-ranging observer and theorist. The work we see him doing for the Court is pretty much all natural history, which to medieval and Renaissance thinkers was closely allied with divination. Even his failures are Renaissancey; his failed quest has strong echoes of Faust. Oh, further back than that. Orpheus failed to retrieve Eurydice from the realm of the dead. This tale dates back to - at least - 347 BC.
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Post by silicondream on May 12, 2021 17:09:42 GMT
Tony’s the ideal researcher for that sort of project because he’s, well, a Renaissance man. He’s not a super-engineer on par with Diego or Kat, but he’s a dedicated and wide-ranging observer and theorist. The work we see him doing for the Court is pretty much all natural history, which to medieval and Renaissance thinkers was closely allied with divination. Even his failures are Renaissancey; his failed quest has strong echoes of Faust. Oh, further back than that. Orpheus failed to retrieve Eurydice from the realm of the dead. This tale dates back to - at least - 347 BC. Aspects of it, sure. I'd suggest that the specific arc of the "underworld visit" part is closest to the myths about various vegetation deities: Inanna and Dumuzid, Demeter/Hermes and Persephone, maybe even Izanami and Izanagi. That bit dates back to 2000 BC and probably predates writing period. (In fact, the oldest myth on written record is that of Nisaba, herself a grain goddess. One wonders if that's part of why the etherics are so charmed by Annie and Surma; their lineage is a fiery take on one of the oldest and most powerful mythemes on the planet.) The Faustian part, though, is more about Tony's character and the reason for his failure. Orpheus was well-loved and began his quest on the advice of the gods, and in most tellings Hades offered him an entirely legitimate bargain to retrieve Eurydice; it was his own doubt that undid him. Faust, on the other hand is undone by a combination of intellectual pride and misplaced faith. He should never have sought to dabble in magic in the first place, and he certainly should not have struck a bargain with Mephistopheles. Indeed, most variants of the Faust tale with happy endings feature him breaking his bargain, with God's full approval. Tom's mentioned in commentaries that the faux "psychopomps" Tony met were genuinely malicious and deceptive--demons, in other words. They were never going to give him a fair deal.
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Post by mturtle7 on May 12, 2021 19:36:00 GMT
Now that the page has updated in the right order, here's a really horrible wildspec: If Annie visits the Forest again and Loup discovers Annie's memories of her father opening up to her, I wouldn't put it past him to extract them from her head and hold them hostage until she does whatever he wants. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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Post by pyradonis on May 12, 2021 19:39:27 GMT
Tom's mentioned in commentaries that the faux "psychopomps" Tony met were genuinely malicious and deceptive--demons, in other words. They were never going to give him a fair deal. Did he, now? That's interesting, because then they would be the first truly evil beings in the comic.
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Post by silicondream on May 12, 2021 19:55:38 GMT
Tom's mentioned in commentaries that the faux "psychopomps" Tony met were genuinely malicious and deceptive--demons, in other words. They were never going to give him a fair deal. Did he, now? That's interesting, because then they would be the first truly evil beings in the comic. Yup. Jones did warn Annie that the etherics can include "all the horrors of mankind," and here we have 'em. I would say that some of Ysengrin's old chums are solidly evil as well--certainly, if Annie had met them with no powers or allies, it would not have ended well for her. And they're apparently hostile to all the other people of the Forest as well. (And on the human side, Diego and his co-conspirators were at best lawful evil, even if they also had human affections.)
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Post by todd on May 14, 2021 21:37:54 GMT
I thought, even before those "false guides" were mentioned here, that they were the closest counterpart to Mephistopheles in the comic. (Though when they do business with Antony, he's on his own rather than working for the Court, and his goal is to get Surma back rather than to learn more about the ether. The Court doesn't have a Mephistopheles-counterpart in its own delvings, as far as we know; it's "self-tempted".)
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Post by Gemminie on May 15, 2021 19:13:22 GMT
Wild speculation of the day: "The world continues to spin" doesn't mean spin as in rotate. It means spin as in spinning fibers into thread, or a spider spinning a web.
After all, fate or destiny is often likened to spinning a thread (see Clotho of the Greek Fates). So when the spirit guides say that the world continues to spin, they mean that the death of the living ensures that the destiny of the universe will continue to develop along its fated path. Coyote also says that "upon death, Man's mind is released into the Ether. And this power allows my world to spin!" That is, to develop and change, to weave the tapestry of its destiny.
What happens if the process is not allowed to continue? Jeanne, for example, was prevented from going into the Ether. Perhaps the guarding of the Annan Waters was only one of the effects that Diego, Sir Young, Steadman, and the others wanted. Perhaps the Court's destiny wasn't one they wanted to see unfold, because they somehow looked into the future and saw that it wasn't good (as far as they were concerned). So they ensured that that destined future wouldn't unfold. But by freeing Jeanne, Annie has ensured that the Court's destiny will unfold as it would have if they hadn't trapped her. Perhaps this is why the spirit guides don't consider themselves to owe Annie anything – because in doing this Annie has undone a great wrong that would have led to more wrong, but instead something new and better can happen. It was an act that carried with it its own reward.
Or maybe not.
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Post by todd on May 16, 2021 1:20:09 GMT
Wild speculation (maybe not so wild): The Court's producing those "zombie robots" is, in part, a response to the defiance that many of its followers and associates (Jones, Andrew, Parley, Antony) have shown towards them. The "zombie robots" will display unquestioning obedience. (They also can't do as much as Jones, Andrew, and the rest can - but in the Court's eyes, it'll be worth it if it allows it to stay in control, a case of "Better a crumbling decaying city that we've absolute control over, than a thriving city that won't obey us".)
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Post by saardvark on May 27, 2021 2:04:10 GMT
semi-wild speculation. The way Tony talks about it here in panels 2 and 6 - www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1547"researching their blasted Omega device" and "access to all the equipment I needed to research the device" At the time he is at the hospital with Surma. Is the device at the hospital? Seems unlikely. So he must be researching some aspect of the device that still needs work. And here www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1550his researches take him around the world! Clearly the device isn't "out there", so again he is studying some aspect of the device that still needs work. He clearly cant be working thedevice directly. But what is out in the "wide world" that would be needed for Omega that wouldn't be mundane like "3 grams of Lutetium" or something? Or something easily accessed from the Court? There must be some key, non-obvious knowledge (not something material) that the Court is missing to make Omega work. But how would the Court know that? How would they know that some knowledge out in the world would make the device they are constructing, actually function as they hope? To me, all this suggests the possibility that instead - the Omega device already exists, but the Court doesn't know how exactly how to start and/or run it. Perhaps it was designed and mostly built long ago by Diego, who didn't leave behind adequate notes as to how it actually worked. Maybe he never quite finished it. Spelled out his goals for what it could do, but not the details. The phrasing "researching their device" and "research the device" make more sense if the device already exists... if they were still making it, it would say "research for/about/towards the device" or similar. I dunno....
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V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
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Post by V on May 27, 2021 8:27:15 GMT
I also have a wild spec about the Omega device. This has saardvark 's claim as a prerequisite. Here comes: Its function, or one of its functions, is to predict future. This is a raw power to be harnessed, and offers unimaginable possibilities in all aspects of human endeavour, especially for a secret organization involved in warfare among other activities. But it needs to be understood first, and tuned skillfully, and this is what is lacking. If it is used without this level of expertise, it works but spits out something which is true but quite useless for anybody to know – like the conception of a slug in the middle of a rainforest. Variant B – it predicts, with unfailing precision, that something will happen that will have great consequences, but the nature of the event is cryptic. Maybe that slug is the future Neo among forest creatures turning human. The Court may or may not know just how important this is, but the uncertainty is high enough at the time of Get Lost that the best they can do is send a guy with a clipboard to just record the details as precise as trained, and correlate the two things later.
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Post by aline on May 27, 2021 9:05:15 GMT
Rather than predicting the future, in think the omega device is about making the future. AND the past. We already know Coyote's theory that the ether is formed by humans, but not in a controlled way. Humans create creatures like Coyote or Jones, but they don't know they are doing it, and they can't do it on purpose, or even stop themselves from doing it. Just like Zimmy except Zimmy is doing it with 1000% more out-of-control intensity. I think the Court wants the ability to redesign reality. All of it. And the slug thing was a super small scale of trying to purposefully insert something into reality with some degree of precision regarding time / space. And I think Coyote knew that and his very clever plan is going to be an enormous headache when the Court decides to deploy their little toy, but that's not a particularly risky prediction
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Post by pyradonis on May 27, 2021 14:03:13 GMT
I also have a wild spec about the Omega device. This has saardvark 's claim as a prerequisite. Here comes: Its function, or one of its functions, is to predict future. This is a raw power to be harnessed, and offers unimaginable possibilities in all aspects of human endeavour, especially for a secret organization involved in warfare among other activities. But it needs to be understood first, and tuned skillfully, and this is what is lacking. If it is used without this level of expertise, it works but spits out something which is true but quite useless for anybody to know – like the conception of a slug in the middle of a rainforest. Variant B – it predicts, with unfailing precision, that something will happen that will have great consequences, but the nature of the event is cryptic. Maybe that slug is the future Neo among forest creatures turning human. The Court may or may not know just how important this is, but the uncertainty is high enough at the time of Get Lost that the best they can do is send a guy with a clipboard to just record the details as precise as trained, and correlate the two things later. That's also what I think (both your and saardvark's theory). The Omega Device must exist in some shape or form, either as equations and schematics or as a physical object that the Court found / had in storage since some past genius built it, and they are either a) trying to get it to work at all or, more likely, b) validating their hypotheses how it works. Of course, one of the tests is to send people all over the world to record what happens in a specific place during a specific time interval and check if that fits with how they interpreted whatever the OD spat out - likely the information it creates is cryptic and hard to interpret.
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Post by Gemminie on May 27, 2021 15:59:42 GMT
Rather than predicting the future, in think the omega device is about making the future. AND the past. We already know Coyote's theory that the ether is formed by humans, but not in a controlled way. Humans create creatures like Coyote or Jones, but they don't know they are doing it, and they can't do it on purpose, or even stop themselves from doing it. Just like Zimmy except Zimmy is doing it with 1000% more out-of-control intensity. I think the Court wants the ability to redesign reality. All of it. And the slug thing was a super small scale of trying to purposefully insert something into reality with some degree of precision regarding time / space. And I think Coyote knew that and his very clever plan is going to be an enormous headache when the Court decides to deploy their little toy, but that's not a particularly risky prediction This is very consistent with what we've seen. Technology is humanity's way of bending the world to its will. Instead of going out to gather fruit, which is subject to the whims of nature, you plant an orchard of trees whose genes you've manipulated to produce superior fruit for human consumption. Not in season? No problem – plant the trees in different parts of the world and ship the fruit to where it's sold. The Omega Device, in this speculation, is the ultimate expression of that manipulation of nature, the ability to change the very shape of reality ("Man's endeavour to become God"). When they test it, it's like another god appears, and no wonder Loup can't see it, because it's something entirely outside his control. Loup is all about control. (And perhaps when Kat's machine angel powers are in action, the same thing happens, perhaps causing Loup to mistake one for the other.)
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 27, 2021 16:26:55 GMT
I wonder how much the goals of the Court have changed since the attack. Whatever the Omega device was about, and it was probably about extracting and repurposing ether constructively (with "Omega" being a reference to the level of secrecy rather than a descriptor of final purpose) perhaps they've recently been thinking about using ether destructively. Scientific advancement is neat but tends to pale when faced with an existential threat from an arguably insane, probably untrustworthy, and unpredictable enemy who launched a surprise attack that forced them to flee and relocate. Wouldn't surprise me if they're thinking about how big a boom they can make with the Omega-level tech.
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Post by todd on May 27, 2021 23:43:11 GMT
I wonder how much the goals of the Court have changed since the attack. Whatever the Omega device was about, and it was probably about extracting and repurposing ether constructively (with "Omega" being a reference to the level of secrecy rather than a descriptor of final purpose) perhaps they've recently been thinking about using ether destructively. Scientific advancement is neat but tends to pale when faced with an existential threat from an arguably insane, probably untrustworthy, and unpredictable enemy who launched a surprise attack that forced them to flee and relocate. Wouldn't surprise me if they're thinking about how big a boom they can make with the Omega-level tech. Which could give a tone of irony to Loup's attack on the Court; he's made the Court more predisposed to use the Omega Device to wipe out him and the rest of the forest-folk, the very fate he was trying to avert by attacking the Court. (Which might match the way the Court's own attacks on the Forest, such as deceiving Reynardine, tended to backfire as well.)
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