|
Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 17, 2020 19:03:29 GMT
1. “Skepticism” towards the Ether might have ironically led to the creation of the Wandering Eye: the perfectly impervious, anonymous, rational and geocentric observer. Thus the battlefield between Ether believers and Ether skeptics is wholly contained within the Ether. I can add a bit about where Jones fits into the overall theory. 2. The inversion of apotheosis, i.e. euhemerism, may occur to Etheric beings as well. Creatures such as Ysengrin, or Brinnie and her “old man”, or even Coyote, seem to undergo some sort of transformation that makes them plausibly consistent with the rest of the world. Obviously, this is what we call the author, but the Court scientists may have a different view. I'll have to think about that one. 3. It is not clear whether the experiment at the power station had drained the rain of Ether. It might be that, if “ordinary” matter and Ether are distinct, the scientists’ manipulation of the Ether produced the desired effect on “ordinary” matter (rain) but failed to manipulate the Ether itself as occurs in natural rainfall (it is unclear whether they were aware of this). Incidentally, Zimmy’s lack of response to the artificial rain might contain a dry joke about homeopathy and other nonsense concerning “activated water” etc. necessarily having some kind of truth to them in-universe. Well, it was an ether collector in the collection phase. We saw the lake level go down, vapor came from the stacks and the surface of the lake, something precipitated from the air. Jack said he thought Antimony would call the collected energy "ether." The Seraphs used devices they placed in water around Ship that they called "ether siphons" to cause and maybe prolong/enhance Zimmy's distortion. I think that it's reasonable to think that there was ether being collected from water all three times and the resulting low etheric pressure area caused Zimmy's Zimmingham to manifest. 4. It is possible to manipulate the Ether despite having no knowledge of, or talent for, its manipulation, if you simply go through the motions as instructed by those who do (it is not clear how Diego arrived at his work) and thereby even achieve results that go against the will of the user (e.g. with the fabled bonelasers resulting from the Temptation of Saint Anthony, or Kat’s recovery device, which serendipitously had the exact opposite effect of what she had intended). This shows that, while will seems to be essential to all the Etherically-gifted characters, said will need not be innate with the user. (“Schopenhauerian” suggestion: The Ether is just the Will, into which is fed individual imagination. Schopenhauer was, of course, one of those Imperial swordfighting teachers that Parley is familiar with: a master in the Principle Art of Cutting, who called his infinite chain of poodles Mensch! whenever he had to chide them.) It's certainly possible to build an etheric device that has effects counter to or unanticipated by the current user but the designer's will and expectations can and should have an impact on how the device behaves. I would argue for a continuum rather than a hard barrier between the material and etherial because I'm unsure of the existence of objects-in-themsleves; we are presented a view of fictional reality where ether can act as a place that things are closer to or further from (at least in a way of speaking, as the dead and gods and stuff can go in there) or at least as a vantage point (some experiments with and uses of ether are possible or at least easier in the Court and similar places) and alternate timelines exist in the ether. These timelines and other potential realities aren't real from the perspective of the comic... until they are. 5. Theseus at least prominently figures into the comic in the form of his one (?) true (?) ship (Annie x Annie x Annie (?)). The one true ship of the fandom will always be Kat(Annie) or possibly Kat(Annie 2). 6. The Ether must provide for some kind of pre-existence if humans created Etheric beings which are older than them, such as Jones. Presumably, their eventual creation was inevitable from the moment that their creation was pre-dated to. Another way to explain it all is prestabilized harmony. Not entirely sure what you mean but I don't think I agree. Some things, like the form (Form?) of a woman for example, can be inevitable but not specific entities' incarnations. They could and do exist in myrad ways and in paradoxical conflict with each other. Is that harmonious? I'd say it channels conflict into regular patterns. Other versions could have existed but don't, and if there is generally only one timeline in the ether at a given time-slice then they don't exist. 7. The Ether is the “flesh” of the absurd dilemma that magic, by definition, cannot be a subset of even a fictional universe’s physics. It is manipulated through sheer superstition, and the most gifted Etheric creatures in the comic are the ones who are most aware of the fictional nature of the universe (Coyote, at the very least, is aware of the Gunnerkrigg Court readers; next in the hierarchy comes Jones, who is presumably not, but aware of more in the world than any other living being, watched the burning of Rome as though it was an event in a “historic novel”, because that really is what the world is to her). “Loup” seems to suggest something in this vein when he tells Annie she has been “taught to see the world in stale symbols” (ironically using “symbols” to mean “purpose-centered abstractions of matter”). The Court seems to be doing stuff that the etheric beings, even god-like ones, are having trouble figuring out, aren't they? Maybe it's just etheric tech so rarefied that they can't navigate through it successfully without taking more time then they have patience but the door to manipulating ether through thought using reason does appear to me to be open.
|
|
|
Post by basser on Jan 18, 2020 2:37:51 GMT
So I've been trying to suss out what Tony's magic powers might have to do with whatever he did to his wife and child(ren?). I feel like these are established facts:
* Tony has some type of supernatural ability or aspect, cause the Court doesn't appear to be in the business of recruiting normals.
* Tony's situational social failure (SSF) is a supernatural trait (or the byproduct of one) and not simply a psychological problem. This is based on it being implied as such several times, and its abnormal consistency throughout his life. We should expect a coping mechanism to evolve over time as psychological needs and emotional competency changes.
* SSF is triggered by the physical (not etheric) presence of more than one sapient creature.
* Prissy Annie counts as multiple sapient creatures. Scruffy Annie does not. Kat does not. Surma does not.
* Tony is an important resource to the Court and has been since at least his early teens. As a student he was frequently tasked with observation of temporal prediction events.
* Tony either has no parents or is estranged from them.
What I'm trying to figure is what kind of magic power would make you both essential to time-predicting magitech, and would forcibly suppress social skills in group settings. I feel like he's gotta have time powers but I dunno what they could possibly be.
|
|
|
Post by pyradonis on Jan 18, 2020 23:17:42 GMT
* Prissy Annie counts as multiple sapient creatures. Scruffy Annie does not. Kat does not. Surma does not. Donny does not as well.
|
|
|
Post by Runningflame on Jan 19, 2020 0:50:42 GMT
* SSF is triggered by the physical (not etheric) presence of more than one sapient creature. * Prissy Annie counts as multiple sapient creatures. Scruffy Annie does not. Kat does not. Surma does not. Question, though: if it's the physical presence of more than one sapient creature (and I think you're correct to make that distinction, otherwise Annie and the Fire couldn't have happened), then how is Prissy Annie physically more than one sapient creature? I could see how she could be etherically more than one person, but to all physical appearances she just has one body. (I do agree that Tony's disability has something supernatural about it, and that his "topic: avoided" family history is significant.)
|
|
|
Post by Druplesnubb on Jan 24, 2020 10:57:22 GMT
So what is the Court up to, exactly? We know that they have a series of five ether stations that gather up etheric energy from lakewater, purifies it and siphons it off deeper into the Court for some kind of purpose, secret even to Jones: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=454www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=455www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=456www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=707www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=708www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=723We know the Court has something called the Omega Device that is a secret to many of its own members. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1547www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1689Ysengrin claims that the Court wants to take Annie "far far away" and that this is something really evil. Anthony, on the other hand, has a completely different view on things. The idea of Antimony getting removed from "the program" is so terrifying to him that the Court can use it to basically blackmail him. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1558www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2027All of this may or may not be related to observing two slugs mating. It should be noticed that the Brazil trip was originally meant for Anthony and Donlan, who are both among the few Court people allowed to know about the "Omega Device" and "the program". Maybe it's less the slug specifically so much as gathering data on what happens at specific coordinates at specific timepoints for some reason? www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1865www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1877www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1884www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1885www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1888www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1896And finally, we have Coyote's comment that the Court is "man's endeavour to become god". www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=497From all this evidence, my theory is that the Court is gonna use all the ether they've gathered to make the Omega Device create a new artificial paradise world for the members of the Court, where they will likely have godlike powers (the whole "becoming god" thing could just refer to the world creating thing, but if you could create the world you wanted why not make it one where you can have superpowers). Don't know how the Brazil trip and the mating slugs tie into all of this, though. Maybe studying what happens at specific places at specific points in time is a way to research causality to help them understand how to create their new world better.
|
|
|
Post by pyradonis on Jan 24, 2020 12:22:20 GMT
The trip to Brazil might very well have been a test to see if [the Omega Device] could accurately predict what would happen on a specific time in a specific spot.
Some readers think what the Court actually wanted was for Surma and Tony to get together and produce a valuable offspring.
Others argued that the Court could not have known Donald would resign from the trip, and Surma of all people would take his place.
The experiment was not (just) about verifying what two slugs would do on a tree. They had used the device before to predict what Surma would do.
Maybe...
|
|
|
Post by wies on Jan 24, 2020 13:14:33 GMT
Ysengrin claims that the Court wants to take Annie "far far away" and that this is something really evil. Anthony, on the other hand, has a completely different view on things. The idea of Antimony getting removed from "the program" is so terrifying to him that the Court can use it to basically blackmail him. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1558www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2027 Huh,never noticed that juxtaposition before! I wonder, do Annie's two father figures see two different things the Court is planning for Annie or do they see the same thing in a different way? All of this may or may not be related to observing two slugs mating. It should be noticed that the Brazil trip was originally meant for Anthony and Donlan, who are both among the few Court people allowed to know about the "Omega Device" and "the program". Yeah, a likely connection there. I guess Donlan and Anthony were already well on their way in the higher ranks of the Court. Likewise, Surma was already doing some Forest business as she says here.
|
|
|
Post by Druplesnubb on Jan 25, 2020 10:28:55 GMT
From all this evidence, my theory is that the Court is gonna use all the ether they've gathered to make the Omega Device create a new artificial paradise world for the members of the Court, where they will likely have godlike powers (the whole "becoming god" thing could just refer to the world creating thing, but if you could create the world you wanted why not make it one where you can have superpowers). Don't know how the Brazil trip and the mating slugs tie into all of this, though. Maybe studying what happens at specific places at specific points in time is a way to research causality to help them understand how to create their new world better. I just wanted to add that the Court seems to have been creted as a refuge from the dangers of the world, with Jones speculating that the founders wanted to " hide from humanity itself". Creating a new artificial world to live in would fit with this motivation.
|
|
|
Post by shaihulud on Jan 29, 2020 17:29:38 GMT
I speculate that Kat isn't becoming a goddess of a robot religion, but rather she is an Angel/Archon of the Demiurge. In Gnostic texts, he is called Samael, which means Blind God/Angel. There are also a lot of all seeing eyes with slash marks in them at the court, and Coyote has made himself look like the Demiurge before.
|
|
|
Post by Corvo on Jan 29, 2020 23:19:11 GMT
|
|
|
Post by shaihulud on Jan 30, 2020 1:20:45 GMT
|
|
|
Post by migrantworker on Jan 31, 2020 15:33:47 GMT
This volume 8 cover made me think. It shows Kat with three pairs of hands. But Kat does not have three pairs of hands. She only has one pair of hands. Three Kats have three pairs of hands. We are talking of Third Annie, Original Annie etc. as if she was the only person affected by Loup's meddling with timelines. But isn't a timeline more like a complete alternate universe? If so, then: Kat is not worried because her best friend has been multiplied. Kat is not primarily trying to find out which of her best friend's copies is the real one. Kat is trying to find out which Kat is the real one.
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Jan 31, 2020 16:46:29 GMT
This volume 8 cover made me think. It shows Kat with three pairs of hands. But Kat does not have three pairs of hands. She only has one pair of hands. Three Kats have three pairs of hands. We are talking of Third Annie, Original Annie etc. as if she was the only person affected by Loup's meddling with timelines. But isn't a timeline more like a complete alternate universe? If so, then: Kat is not worried because her best friend has been multiplied. Kat is not primarily trying to find out which of her best friend's copies is the real one. Kat is trying to find out which Kat is the real one. Interesting take. I think though, that Kat is worried about the multiple Annies, but she's also worried about how the other Kats, who are all real in their own timelines, are dealing with the lack-of-Annie in their timelines. Here's an alternate take on your idea: Kat will make contact somehow with the other timeline Kats and they will work together to get all the Annies back where they belong.
|
|
|
Post by warrl on Feb 1, 2020 4:06:51 GMT
The six-arms thing is fairly common on holy/unholy figures of various religions.
In the more-populated versions of Christian mythology, many angels have four wings and two arms. Since wings and arms are both modified forelegs, that's somewhat equivalent to six arms.
I think Kat *is* becoming a deity of the robots' religion, but simply because the robots choose so. Their reasons relate to impressive, but still mundane, things she has done regarding robots. Entirely separately, she is also a powerful being of some sort with particular relevance to whatever causes Zimmy's oddities (and perhaps less strong, or less distinctive, relevance elsewhere).
|
|
|
Post by migrantworker on Feb 1, 2020 12:53:53 GMT
This volume 8 cover made me think. It shows Kat with three pairs of hands. But Kat does not have three pairs of hands. She only has one pair of hands. Three Kats have three pairs of hands. We are talking of Third Annie, Original Annie etc. as if she was the only person affected by Loup's meddling with timelines. But isn't a timeline more like a complete alternate universe? If so, then: Kat is not worried because her best friend has been multiplied. Kat is not primarily trying to find out which of her best friend's copies is the real one. Kat is trying to find out which Kat is the real one. Interesting take. I think though, that Kat is worried about the multiple Annies, but she's also worried about how the other Kats, who are all real in their own timelines, are dealing with the lack-of-Annie in their timelines. Here's an alternate take on your idea: Kat will make contact somehow with the other timeline Kats and they will work together to get all the Annies back where they belong. Hmm, then I should clarify. It's not that Kat is serenely disinterested in Annies' predicament. It's that somehow she cannot let go. Yes it is disconcerting to see your best friend shifted, but if both of them look like Annie and walk like Annie and quack like Annie all the while being accepting of their own changed situation if not happy with it, then... maybe it's not that much of a problem? So I suspect that the main driver for Kat's worries is that she sees herself as being affected too. To her, it's personal. And it challenges her very being: what's the point of having friends, in any number, if you cannot be sure you should be with them? At the same time Annies make an excellent test subject: they are also affected by the same condition (or so Kat thinks?), and there happen to be two of them in the current timeline. So you could for example run comparative tests on them, which Kat cannot do on herself, there being only one of her at hand. With that said, there can be several end results that Kat is contemplating, each with its own set of problems (aka plot drivers). Returning Annies to their proper timelines would force them to go through another continuity break when they are still suffering from the previous one, an obvious reason for thm to oppose being returned. 'Just finding out' and then doing nothing with the knowledge still leaves the knowledge, which potentially elevates one of the Annies above the other as the 'more real one' - and we already know what happens when Annie learns something everyone else knew but kept secret from her. Different timelines' Kats getting in touch with each other would have a very real potential of creating a whole set of new and exciting problems while they are collectively getting the hang of their new ability, and I would actually worry about their sanity in that scenario. If Kat has contemplated all this even briefly and still carries on her work, then no wonder why she is so stressed.
|
|
|
Post by rasputingold on Feb 2, 2020 6:32:27 GMT
If we accept the idea that the two Annies are each from their own timeline and there is at least one Kat without hers, you have to wonder...just how far would a loss like that push Kat? Given how much the idea of a different Kat in that situation seems to have pushed Kat who has *two* Annies, I have a bad feeling that the loss of her Annie would essentially be Kat's supervillain origin story. It'd go something like this-Kat loses Annie and becomes obsessed with one or both of two things; Revenge on Loup/the forest or recreating Annie with her robotics expertise.
Now, I imagine the court would frown on this, so one ending of this branch is simply Kat is neutralized somehow before she gets anywhere. But lets say she doesn't-she hides her work, or she somehow gets the robots off of the shield to protect her, or the court just decides to let her do her thing-I doubt that she could create a "satisfactory" Annie. If we're going by stages of grief, there's a short denial stage with the fake Annie before Kat gets to rage, turned towards the forest, the people who let Annie go into the forest, the court for needing Annie to do that work for them, and I think that Kat's rage would be something formidable.
We know that the robots can at least challenge Loup. I think with Kat's abilities and potentially what she's getting from the robot's belief in her, she could kill Loup and the rest of the forest, and likely anyone from the court trying to stop her, with him. That's not going to solve her problems-in fact, with Loup dead, she may have made a solution impossible.
The realization that she may have made it impossible to get Annie back, she'll do her best to change that, to do it herself, and she might succeed (at the cost of the other timelines or not) but if she didn't...oh, if she didn't, I imagine madness and likely a robot apocalypse. After that, attempts to recreate everything that was lost, attempts that never quite succeeded because she would always know what her 'bots would do next.
TL;DR What if the Kat who lost her Annie just went proper supervillain nuts and you end up with a post-robot apocalypse hellscape littered with failed attempts at recreating the people Kat cared about and Kat presides over it as the robot Angel/Goddess.
|
|
|
Post by Runningflame on Feb 5, 2020 5:21:03 GMT
TL;DR What if the Kat who lost her Annie just went proper supervillain nuts and you end up with a post-robot apocalypse hellscape littered with failed attempts at recreating the people Kat cared about and Kat presides over it as the robot Angel/Goddess. Hmmmmm...
|
|
|
Post by wies on Feb 5, 2020 7:52:08 GMT
TL;DR What if the Kat who lost her Annie just went proper supervillain nuts and you end up with a post-robot apocalypse hellscape littered with failed attempts at recreating the people Kat cared about and Kat presides over it as the robot Angel/Goddess. Hmmmmm...I still don't know what I would like more: that the whole adventures of Tea and Brown-haired Guy have been relevant to the story, this whole time; or not. Probably the latter though, it would make little sense to make her a fourth wall breaker in the case of the former - unless she is a creature alike Coyote.
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Feb 14, 2020 13:06:50 GMT
That creator-eureka moment in the last panel of www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=755is interesting... in the background is something which could either be a "blue flame of creativity" igniting, or it could be something (ether?) flowing INTO Kat... maybe the causal nudge for the light bulb event? Or maybe Im just over-interpreting! Wouldn't be the first time....
|
|
|
Post by mturtle7 on Feb 14, 2020 21:27:50 GMT
That creator-eureka moment in the last panel of www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=755is interesting... in the background is something which could either be a "blue flame of creativity" igniting, or it could be something (ether?) flowing INTO Kat... maybe the causal nudge for the light bulb event? Or maybe Im just over-interpreting! Wouldn't be the first time.... I thought it was just the left-over silhouette of the bird's wing from last panel.
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Feb 15, 2020 1:09:55 GMT
That creator-eureka moment in the last panel of www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=755is interesting... in the background is something which could either be a "blue flame of creativity" igniting, or it could be something (ether?) flowing INTO Kat... maybe the causal nudge for the light bulb event? Or maybe Im just over-interpreting! Wouldn't be the first time.... I thought it was just the left-over silhouette of the bird's wing from last panel. could be - but the bottom edge of the bird wing is straight (with a feathered edge, of course), rather than curved...
|
|
|
Post by warrl on Feb 15, 2020 23:48:49 GMT
And of course the light-bulb filament being an early (apparently first in-story, as opposed to title pages and treatises) instance of the Kat-glyph.
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Feb 16, 2020 4:16:51 GMT
And of course the light-bulb filament being an early (apparently first in-story, as opposed to title pages and treatises) instance of the Kat-glyph. of course! the sign of the creator, after all...
|
|
|
Post by pyradonis on Mar 7, 2020 11:23:11 GMT
Wild(?) Spec: The Omega Device was not created by the Court.
Tony saying he was "researching" the OD always sounded a bit odd to me, if it was something the Court was building. Wouldn't he then rather having been "developing (further)", "enhancing", "improving", "tweaking", "tinkering with" or "refining" the OD? "Researching" it sounds to me not like something the Court is creating but more like something the Court found. It would still be "their blasted Omega Device" because they kept it, so now it belongs to them. If it was something the Court discovered (like a physical effect), then they could be researching it, but a "device" sounds rather like something you can touch and operate.
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Mar 7, 2020 14:38:56 GMT
Wild(?) Spec: The Omega Device was not created by the Court.
Tony said he was "researching" the OD always sounded a bit odd to me, if it was something the Court was building. Wouldn't he then rather having been "developing (further)", "enhancing", "improving", "tweaking", "tinkering with" or "refining" the OD? "Researching" it sounds to me not like something the Court is creating but more like something the Court found. It would still be "their blasted Omega Device" because they kept it, so now it belongs to them. If it was something the Court discovered (like a physical effect), then they could be researching it, but a "device" sounds rather like something you can touch and operate.
some powerful, and ancient (long lost or forgotten civilization), or magical, or alien artifact, perhaps?
|
|
|
Post by Druplesnubb on Mar 9, 2020 10:42:34 GMT
If it's not something they created, then it was most likely created by the Seed Bismuth.
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Mar 10, 2020 1:46:17 GMT
Wild(?) Spec: The Omega Device was not created by the Court.
Tony saying he was "researching" the OD always sounded a bit odd to me, if it was something the Court was building. Wouldn't he then rather having been "developing (further)", "enhancing", "improving", "tweaking", "tinkering with" or "refining" the OD? "Researching" it sounds to me not like something the Court is creating but more like something the Court found. It would still be "their blasted Omega Device" because they kept it, so now it belongs to them. If it was something the Court discovered (like a physical effect), then they could be researching it, but a "device" sounds rather like something you can touch and operate.
maybe its Diego's final invention, that maybe he never quite finished... or did finish, but no-one knows how it works or exactly what it does (except Coyote, sort-of).
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Mar 10, 2020 1:53:01 GMT
If it's not something they created, then it was most likely created by the Seed Bismuth. or maybe it reawakens and gives the Court full control over the Seed Bismuth? (I have the impression that the Seed B is almost force of Nature, or rather, a force of Technology[!], that just produced/grew the Court, rather outside their complete control -or maybe it ran a bit out of control...)
|
|
|
Post by Runningflame on Mar 11, 2020 2:22:15 GMT
no-one knows how it works or exactly what it does (except Coyote, sort-of). Hmm! That puts me in mind of this page. Coyote implies that something at the Court caused the cut on Annie's cheek, and says, "Looks like it was caused by something very powerful!" Does he think that the Omega Device caused Annie's cut?
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Mar 11, 2020 2:31:07 GMT
no-one knows how it works or exactly what it does (except Coyote, sort-of). Hmm! That puts me in mind of this page. Coyote implies that something at the Court caused the cut on Annie's cheek, and says, "Looks like it was caused by something very powerful!" Does he think that the Omega Device caused Annie's cut? In a way he's correct - something (formerly) at the Court (Jeanne) caused the cut, and that something is very powerful.... The way Coyote's mind flits from thing to thing like a firefly though, its not clear he is implying the Omega device did it.... I dunno??
|
|