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Post by aline on Sept 24, 2015 11:26:22 GMT
The request of "the Lords of the Court" that Annie be allowed to go back the forest is interesting, because: They seemed to exercise abundant influence over Anthony in his account last chapter. Why does he suddenly disregard their opinions now? Possibly because they didn't make the request. I don't think it really matters who at the Court made the request. Anthony has obeyed the Court because he was trying to protect his daughter from them, and now he is disobeying them in order to protect his daughter from Coyote. He thinks he's the more dangerous of the lot and I don't blame him.
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Post by smurfton on Sept 24, 2015 18:00:24 GMT
In my experience, the only reason for stating things while true, with the intention that the interpretation will be incorrect is to lie. With the Oracle at Delphi, she did have a very good reason to lie. Even if she did think that the general would lose she wasn't going to tell him that when he could chop her head off. People do not like it when they are told they shall fail. "Intentionally obscure the truth" and "speaking the truth in a way that seems to imply something is false" describe the same thing, due to being long winded synonyms of the same thing: lying. According to their mythology, Apollo is telling the Oracle what to say, so she doesnt need to lie. The interpreters of her gibberish could always mistranslate, though. Secondly, nobody could bring weapons to, or start fights in Delphi, without making Apollo very mad. What's the Oracle got to fear?
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Post by scottjm on Sept 24, 2015 18:19:58 GMT
The request of "the Lords of the Court" that Annie be allowed to go back the forest is interesting, because: They seemed to exercise abundant influence over Anthony in his account last chapter. Why does he suddenly disregard their opinions now? What is being said is not necessarily what is being thought/desired. This is polotics and court intregue. Expect false faces, lies, misdirections, etc. There is also a very real chance that the courts desires are not changed, but they need to appear to not be the cause of the issue for some reason. Plus, tony was probably instructed to "convince" Coyote to accept Annie's no longer being the medium. This is likely all a part of the plan, and not them giving in to Coyote. The school faculty are afraid, and willing to concede to Coyote's demands (Annie is their student, after all), but the court as Tom (and Tony) know it? Definitely not. Either that, or I have entirely misconstrued the purpose of the Court's school. I thought it was to keep those kids away from the rest of the world. It seems more like a recruitment program to me. Take in and train those who might be useful/valuable, and discard those who fail to make the grade. I would say it is more likely keeping the students out of the hands of others, then keeping them from the world.
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Post by storyteller on Sept 24, 2015 21:08:44 GMT
In my experience, the only reason for stating things while true, with the intention that the interpretation will be incorrect is to lie. With the Oracle at Delphi, she did have a very good reason to lie. Even if she did think that the general would lose she wasn't going to tell him that when he could chop her head off. People do not like it when they are told they shall fail. "Intentionally obscure the truth" and "speaking the truth in a way that seems to imply something is false" describe the same thing, due to being long winded synonyms of the same thing: lying. According to their mythology, Apollo is telling the Oracle what to say, so she doesnt need to lie. The interpreters of her gibberish could always mistranslate, though. Secondly, nobody could bring weapons to, or start fights in Delphi, without making Apollo very mad. What's the Oracle got to fear? There are stories of Alexander the Great dragging the Oracle out by her hair when she did not answer his question. I am not certain when the original story took place, or how religious the participants were at the time however. My personal opinion is that it is completely possible to lie while everything being spoken is technically correct. The most vivid example that I can recall off the top of my head is an anime. One of the characters is transformed into a monster, a second character talks to the alien from outer-space (long story) to see if there is any way to change them back. The second character is basically told that the alien has never heard of it being done and is impossible, which is true. But that (character profession) does impossible things all the time, which is also true. Second character tries to turn back the first, but ends up committing murder suicide because of the information. Third character goes back to the alien and asks if there really was a way. The answer is of course not, but the alien needed the third character to be by themselves while defending their home from a city destroying monster to get what they want. If you disagree, I think it would be wise for us to drop this discussion, because I know from debates about the show, that whether or not the above counts as a lie tends to become heated. One of the definitions I have seen of lying is: dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie5. To speak falsely, or utter untruth knowingly, as with the intent to deceive. I personally see speaking a technically true statement, with the intent to deceive as the same as telling a lie.
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Post by keef on Sept 24, 2015 21:14:43 GMT
Coyote is probably the kind of chaotic neutral where their goals aren't restricted by neither good nor evil, but instead only center around themselves. Coyote can harm or hurt equally, but in the end every action he takes seems to benefit himself (if only for his own amusement). Sounds like the average human being to me.
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Post by l33tninja on Sept 24, 2015 21:15:31 GMT
According to their mythology, Apollo is telling the Oracle what to say, so she doesnt need to lie. The interpreters of her gibberish could always mistranslate, though. Secondly, nobody could bring weapons to, or start fights in Delphi, without making Apollo very mad. What's the Oracle got to fear? One of the definitions I have seen of lying is: dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie5. To speak falsely, or utter untruth knowingly, as with the intent to deceive. I personally see speaking a technically true statement, with the intent to deceive as the same as telling a lie. Honesty and "not lying" are not synonymous. I wouldn't say Coyote is honest. He might not lie (according to Jones), but that doesn't mean he is honest. Honesty is really what we want from people when we say "don't lie."
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Post by Daedalus on Sept 25, 2015 0:02:06 GMT
One of the definitions I have seen of lying is: dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie5. To speak falsely, or utter untruth knowingly, as with the intent to deceive. I personally see speaking a technically true statement, with the intent to deceive as the same as telling a lie. Honesty and "not lying" are not synonymous. I wouldn't say Coyote is honest. He might not lie (according to Jones), but that doesn't mean he is honest. Honesty is really what we want from people when we say "don't lie." Oh, Coyote's honest, for a meaningless definition of "honest". He speaks the technical truth, but you'd still be a fool to trust in his "honesty". If you tell Coyote not to lie, he won't, but he's not going to do what you meant by saying "honest" - to tell non-misleading truths. Or so I would argue, based on my semantics of what a lie is or isn't. What he's doing, imho, is morally equivalent to lying, but not technically lying. ...Damn it, haha. How silly I was to expect a straight answer!
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Post by todd on Sept 25, 2015 0:36:48 GMT
The most vivid example that I can recall off the top of my head is an anime. One of the characters is transformed into a monster, a second character talks to the alien from outer-space (long story) to see if there is any way to change them back. The second character is basically told that the alien has never heard of it being done and is impossible, which is true. But that (character profession) does impossible things all the time, which is also true. Second character tries to turn back the first, but ends up committing murder suicide because of the information. Third character goes back to the alien and asks if there really was a way. The answer is of course not, but the alien needed the third character to be by themselves while defending their home from a city destroying monster to get what they want. Was that "Puella Madoka"? (I haven't seen it, but I've read a few summaries of it, and recall something like that in them.)
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Post by ctso74 on Sept 25, 2015 1:33:18 GMT
... (draws pentacle with blood and crayons) ... Appropriate for Coyote, and it reminds me of The Call of Cthulhu (For Beginning Readers). It's maddening fun. <insert Zimmy joke here>
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Post by sapientcoffee on Sept 25, 2015 4:42:12 GMT
Honesty and "not lying" are not synonymous. I wouldn't say Coyote is honest. He might not lie (according to Jones), but that doesn't mean he is honest. Honesty is really what we want from people when we say "don't lie." Oh, Coyote's honest, for a meaningless definition of "honest". He speaks the technical truth, but you'd still be a fool to trust in his "honesty". If you tell Coyote not to lie, he won't, but he's not going to do what you meant by saying "honest" - to tell non-misleading truths. Or so I would argue, based on my semantics of what a lie is or isn't. What he's doing, imho, is morally equivalent to lying, but not technically lying. The fae/lawyer version of speaking the truth!
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Post by csj on Sept 25, 2015 5:21:52 GMT
And what's he then that says I play the villain? When this advice is free I give and honest
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Post by storyteller on Sept 25, 2015 16:36:20 GMT
The most vivid example that I can recall off the top of my head is an anime. One of the characters is transformed into a monster, a second character talks to the alien from outer-space (long story) to see if there is any way to change them back. The second character is basically told that the alien has never heard of it being done and is impossible, which is true. But that (character profession) does impossible things all the time, which is also true. Second character tries to turn back the first, but ends up committing murder suicide because of the information. Third character goes back to the alien and asks if there really was a way. The answer is of course not, but the alien needed the third character to be by themselves while defending their home from a city destroying monster to get what they want. Was that "Puella Madoka"? (I haven't seen it, but I've read a few summaries of it, and recall something like that in them.) Yep, I was both trying not to spoil the show if anyone ever decides to watch it, or start an argument. Kyubey is a bit of a divisive character.
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corvis
Junior Member
"I like this place and could gladly waste my time in it."
Posts: 56
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Post by corvis on Sept 25, 2015 20:13:51 GMT
The request of "the Lords of the Court" that Annie be allowed to go back the forest is interesting, because: They seemed to exercise abundant influence over Anthony in his account last chapter. Why does he suddenly disregard their opinions now? What is being said is not necessarily what is being thought/desired. This is polotics and court intregue. Expect false faces, lies, misdirections, etc. There is also a very real chance that the courts desires are not changed, but they need to appear to not be the cause of the issue for some reason. Plus, tony was probably instructed to "convince" Coyote to accept Annie's no longer being the medium. This is likely all a part of the plan, and not them giving in to Coyote. The school faculty are afraid, and willing to concede to Coyote's demands (Annie is their student, after all), but the court as Tom (and Tony) know it? Definitely not. Either that, or I have entirely misconstrued the purpose of the Court's school. I thought it was to keep those kids away from the rest of the world. It seems more like a recruitment program to me. Take in and train those who might be useful/valuable, and discard those who fail to make the grade. I would say it is more likely keeping the students out of the hands of others, then keeping them from the world. Well, at this point I'm only half taking my own conjectures seriously. I put in my two cents because the interaction with other readers helps me understand the story. You're probably right. Re: "recruitment program": .....I think that's actually even worse that what I thought.
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Post by warrl on Sept 27, 2015 0:46:40 GMT
And if that interpretation turns out to be explicitly contradicted, s/he will be in some trouble - since, of course, Coyote never lies. Which itself causes a problem, because if our mystery roleplayer gets ANYTHING explicitly wrong about the future, s/he's gone out of character. Vagary isn't just part of the character himself; it's also an important aspect to roleplaying a fairly omniscient fictional character. Honesty and "not lying" are not synonymous. I wouldn't say Coyote is honest. He might not lie (according to Jones), but that doesn't mean he is honest. Honesty is really what we want from people when we say "don't lie." And even when he is honest, it doesn't necessarily mean he is correct. As a certain great (and recently deceased) American philosopher once said, “It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future.” I've seen nothing suggesting that Coyote is omniscient even about stuff that has already happened, let alone about what will happen in a few months.
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corvis
Junior Member
"I like this place and could gladly waste my time in it."
Posts: 56
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Post by corvis on Sept 28, 2015 1:30:59 GMT
(Well, Daedalus, trolling though it was...it was very interesting trolling. There was a time a few years ago when I was an avid (text-based) roleplayer, and I do know that to be a good one, you've got to think fast and learn to deal with the unexpected, even cultivate it if it made the story better. when I was new at it, I used to get in a lot of trouble because I would plan too far ahead and get accused of "god-modding"--trying to exercise undue control over events in the game. Even now, if somebody suddenly summoned me into a pentacle just to see what I would do, I don't think I'd know how to respond. This person is the RPer that I wish I'd been back then.) Anybody watching the blood moon tonight? It's far too--grrrr--cloudy where I am! I wonder if Tom will do any Annie's Poke-print art?
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Post by l33tninja on Sept 28, 2015 15:47:13 GMT
And if that interpretation turns out to be explicitly contradicted, s/he will be in some trouble - since, of course, Coyote never lies. Which itself causes a problem, because if our mystery roleplayer gets ANYTHING explicitly wrong about the future, s/he's gone out of character. Vagary isn't just part of the character himself; it's also an important aspect to roleplaying a fairly omniscient fictional character. Honesty and "not lying" are not synonymous. I wouldn't say Coyote is honest. He might not lie (according to Jones), but that doesn't mean he is honest. Honesty is really what we want from people when we say "don't lie." And even when he is honest, it doesn't necessarily mean he is correct. As a certain great (and recently deceased) American philosopher once said, “It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future.” I've seen nothing suggesting that Coyote is omniscient even about stuff that has already happened, let alone about what will happen in a few months. Great point. Coyote didn't know everything that had happened with Anthony and Annie until this meeting in the court, so he is not omniscient.
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