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Post by Nepycros on Aug 19, 2015 19:52:25 GMT
If anyone's browsed the discussion threads over the last few hours, they'll know at least a sliver of my stance on Tony's character in the last few pages. I'll freely admit my opinion is colored by what he tried to accomplish, more than what actually happened as a result. I definitely have much to learn, but I'm willing to at least try and cover bases with this poll.
This poll is meant for people to track their opinions of Tony over a period of time. No person's opinion can remain truly unchanged from the moment he was reintroduced to this last page. I wanna see how opinions of him change over time, so feel free to alter your vote as your opinion changes (for better or for worse). Aaaand, I suppose we can discuss his character outside of the page threads anyway, so just post whatever about Tony you like.
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 19, 2015 19:57:07 GMT
This honestly should have an "Other" option, though I think you have covered most of the bases well.
Anyone browsing threads in the last several months should know my opinion as well, as I've been rather vocal.
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 19, 2015 20:00:08 GMT
This honestly should have an "Other" option, though I think you have covered most of the bases well. Anyone browsing threads in the last several months should know my opinion as well, as I've been rather vocal. It should be fairly clear I'm willing to add on extra attachments to the poll suiting the various needs of forum-goers. Still, I don't want it to have TOO many options, or it'll just be a homogeneous spread across nigh-infinite options. I want it to behave as closely to a spectrum as possible, ranging from negative to positive. |
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 19, 2015 20:11:26 GMT
This honestly should have an "Other" option, though I think you have covered most of the bases well. Anyone browsing threads in the last several months should know my opinion as well, as I've been rather vocal. It should be fairly clear I'm willing to add on extra attachments to the poll suiting the various needs of forum-goers. Still, I don't want it to have TOO many options, or it'll just be a homogeneous spread across nigh-infinite options. I want it to behave as closely to a spectrum as possible, ranging from negative to positive. But can you add options without erasing all previous votes? If there is a way to do so, I've never learned it. |
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Post by Kitty Hamilton on Aug 19, 2015 20:28:40 GMT
Torn between 'I think he's just awful...' and 'Several times I've learned to hate him'.
There was a lot of talk when he first appeared about how his disappearance might have been justified if he was doing something for Annie's sake, and I was honestly expecting that to be the case...but it turns out he abandoned his daughter because he couldn't handle his own angst, and attempt to resurrect ghosts. tsk tsk anthony
I don't think he's a bad character, but he is a terrible father
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Post by matoyak on Aug 19, 2015 20:56:02 GMT
I voted for "I can understand his motives, but it's still unforgivable.", but I don't think it's completely unforgivable. He can be forgiven and he can be redeemed. I don't think "He's not a good father, but he's driven." is strong enough... and "He risked so much for Surma, yet he abused Annie in the process. I'm really torn." I don't think his risking so much for Surma is a good thing, so it wouldn't make me torn at all.
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Post by pxc on Aug 19, 2015 21:35:43 GMT
I voted for "I can understand his motives, but it's still unforgivable.", but I don't think it's completely unforgivable. He can be forgiven and he can be redeemed. I don't think "He's not a good father, but he's driven." is strong enough... and "He risked so much for Surma, yet he abused Annie in the process. I'm really torn." I don't think his risking so much for Surma is a good thing, so it wouldn't make me torn at all. This pretty well nailed it for me. His decision to abandon Annie is inexcusable. His odyssey of failure was incredibly self absorbed and misguided. He is obsessed with Surma to the detriment of himself, his daughter, and his friends. He's a deeply prideful and flawed person, supremely overconfident while at the same time a social and emotional idiot. But I don't think many people, if any, are unable to be redeemed. His path to redemption is pretty wide open. Even with these revelations I think Annie will welcome him back if he attempts to make amends. And a repaired relationship would be best for both of them. None of the options really encompass "I loathe this guy, but he's not a complete lost cause. " |
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Post by Trillium on Aug 19, 2015 23:45:45 GMT
Tony is a seriously damaged character in body and soul. We have had little glimpses into his life. Currently we are getting a bunch of information about what happened to him some time last year. During that time I would say his actions, like cutting his own hand off (after he had the crap beaten out of him) at the behest of some really creepy critters so he could contact his dead wife were not the actions of a sane man. I think he needs healing and a lot of counciling. For the time being Annie should probably have another guardian.
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Post by gunnerwf on Aug 20, 2015 0:24:33 GMT
We can't tell who he is yet is my belief
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 20, 2015 0:32:32 GMT
The options do not feel like a coherent spectrum. In particular, option #8 feels significantly harsher than option #6.
Throwing around the word "unforgivable" also makes that option feel significantly harsher than the "immediately worse" options before it.
Regardless, Anthony needs an epic hug, and he needs an epic cry, and the only human being on the planet that he allowed himself to do either of those things with died a couple of years ago. Since it would be breathtakingly inappropriate in his eyes for him to seek that kind of solace from Surma's daughter, and as he utterly distrusts any head-shrink who might be sent by the Court (because he isn't stupid), I have literally no idea how the character is ever going to manage to Properly Grieve, allowing him to move on and be a functional adult.
In the meanwhile, the awful-lawful Court is almost certainly Fifty Kinds of Thrilled to have Broken Tony riding herd on Broken Annie, and Coyote probably finds it all beyond funny even if he didn't set it up in the first place.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 20, 2015 2:07:18 GMT
Anthony is still alive, so redemption is possible.
I want to wang tomatoes at Anthony none the less.
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Post by fish on Aug 20, 2015 2:11:38 GMT
Not enough options on the positive side of the spectrum. I'm voting "I can understand and relate to him but his 'redeemability' depends on his future actions (after he has been made to understand why and how he caused his daughter to suffer)".
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 20, 2015 2:39:25 GMT
Well, he didn't rip Antimony's fire-totem out and try to stick it into Surma's corpse so he's not as bad as he could have been. Assuming he took the time to learn all that dumb etheric machinery existed for the people from the Wood who took the test...
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 20, 2015 4:47:39 GMT
Well, he didn't rip Antimony's fire-totem out and try to stick it into Surma's corpse... Yet. |
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Post by snipertom on Aug 20, 2015 13:23:31 GMT
Tony is pretty boxbot. However I can now understand *why* he did the things he did and why he is the way his is, but there is no way I can condone his behaviour. It is not the behaviour of a mature, well-adjusted adult. It's not clear where his self-absorption comes from- narcissism or cripplingly low self-esteem. But I suspect much of his functionality as a human being came from having Donny around or Surma around, as well as the structured environment of somewhere like the Court or a hospital. Tony is a seriously damaged character in body and soul. We have had little glimpses into his life. Currently we are getting a bunch of information about what happened to him some time last year. During that time I would say his actions, like cutting his own hand off (after he had the crap beaten out of him) at the behest of some really creepy critters so he could contact his dead wife were not the actions of a sane man. I think he needs healing and a lot of counciling. For the time being Annie should probably have another guardian. Yes I think it's important to point out that we can't really blame the whole bone surgery on his selfishness - it's pretty clear that he didn't really know what he was doing, who he was dealing with, or even where he was. After Surma's death he should have sought his friends and talked to his daughter, but it's pretty clear anyone broken by grief in this nightmarish situation would have accepted the "arm against wife" deal. Anyone? Most people with 'complicated grief' end up getting depressed. Very few if any end up doing crazy ridiculous weird shit. That's not say I don't sympathise with how tragic this arc is and with Tony for his inability to move on. Part of his obsession with Surma is probably because he connects with very few people. |
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Post by snipertom on Aug 20, 2015 13:36:45 GMT
Eglamore is probably almost as messed up. Seriously.
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Post by eyemyself on Aug 20, 2015 14:43:20 GMT
g [In conclusion: Tony's dad skill: bad Tony's life: sad Tony's arc for now: rad] ^This |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 20, 2015 16:13:12 GMT
Well, he didn't rip Antimony's fire-totem out and try to stick it into Surma's corpse... Yet. It's probably pretty ripe by now. I think that Love Boat has sailed. Of course he might clone a new body for Surma or have the old one pickled in a jar(s) somewhere for reassembly (ala Akira- that's an Ikea-job from hell, one handed)... |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 20, 2015 16:16:26 GMT
[In conclusion: Tony's dad skill: bad Tony's life: sad Tony's arc for now: rad] Tony's treatment of people around him: cad [edit] Tony's new field of scientific study: mad [/edit] |
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Post by Elysium on Aug 21, 2015 3:54:47 GMT
He's a spanner.
My dislike for him went from him being an awful human being to him being a stupid human being.
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Post by eyemyself on Aug 21, 2015 15:46:45 GMT
As a character I think Tony is a well written, interesting, even necessary addition to the story. His arc helps explain a lot of why Annie is the way she is. As a person Tony displays many of the traits I find hardest to deal with in other people.
He's not evil. He's not malicious. He's not even stupid. He is intractable and idealistic to the point of being dogmatic and in this particular case that combined with an almost pathological sense of independence makes him dangerous to himself, his daughter, and potentially everyone around him. He is his own worst enemy, creating a vacuum around himself due to his pathological "go-it-alone" mentality when it comes to problem solving and his need to "atone" for his perceived failures and allowing himself to become isolated from those who might have been best able to help him, or at least help him makes sense of things and come to terms with them. Instead, forging his own path due to desperation set him up for easy manipulation by unknown forces.
He is almost Shakespearean in his tragic, self-destructive nature. Think of King Lear, Othello, Titus, MacBeth. All the primary instruments of their own downfall leaving a wake of damage to those they love behind them due to their deep hubris.
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Post by pxc on Aug 21, 2015 16:03:48 GMT
As a character I think Tony is a well written, interesting, even necessary addition to the story. His arc helps explain a lot of why Annie is the way she is. As a person Tony displays many of the traits I find hardest to deal with in other people. He's not evil. He's not malicious. He's not even stupid. He is intractable and idealistic to the point of being dogmatic and in this particular case that combined with an almost pathological sense of independence makes him dangerous to himself, his daughter, and potentially everyone around him. He is his own worst enemy, creating a vacuum around himself due to his pathological "go-it-alone" mentality when it comes to problem solving and his need to "atone" for his perceived failures and allowing himself to become isolated from those who might have been best able to help him, or at least help him makes sense of things and come to terms with them. Instead, forging his own path due to desperation set him up for easy manipulation by unknown forces. He is almost Shakespearean in his tragic, self-destructive nature. Think of King Lear, Othello, Titus, MacBeth. All the primary instruments of their own downfall leaving a wake of damage to those they love behind them due to their deep hubris. At some point though the line between being willfully dense and being stupid gets pretty blurry. |
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Post by eyemyself on Aug 21, 2015 16:13:29 GMT
As a character I think Tony is a well written, interesting, even necessary addition to the story. His arc helps explain a lot of why Annie is the way she is. As a person Tony displays many of the traits I find hardest to deal with in other people. He's not evil. He's not malicious. He's not even stupid. He is intractable and idealistic to the point of being dogmatic and in this particular case that combined with an almost pathological sense of independence makes him dangerous to himself, his daughter, and potentially everyone around him. He is his own worst enemy, creating a vacuum around himself due to his pathological "go-it-alone" mentality when it comes to problem solving and his need to "atone" for his perceived failures and allowing himself to become isolated from those who might have been best able to help him, or at least help him makes sense of things and come to terms with them. Instead, forging his own path due to desperation set him up for easy manipulation by unknown forces. He is almost Shakespearean in his tragic, self-destructive nature. Think of King Lear, Othello, Titus, MacBeth. All the primary instruments of their own downfall leaving a wake of damage to those they love behind them due to their deep hubris. At some point though the line between being willfully dense and being stupid gets pretty blurry. I don't disagree. Semantically I prefer the term "ignorant" to "stupid" for people like Tony. He appears to have a very capable mind, however, by choice or by nature it is inflexible and hinders his ability to think critically and challenge his own assumptions. |
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Post by Rasselas on Aug 22, 2015 9:54:22 GMT
This is hard. None of the options really fit for me, but it would be difficult to present perfect options.
Tony is a tragic, deeply flawed character. He's been a bad father and caused Annie harm, not out of malice but through a combination of hubris, overwhelming grief and lack of perspective. He is redeemable, but only if he changes in a meaningful way and puts in a serious effort towards redemption.
I understand him, but I don't forgive him. I believe it will be possible to forgive him, if he atones for the harm he's caused.
I feel he is the type of character to pity and grieve for, rather than hate.
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Post by tootsiren on Aug 23, 2015 7:29:00 GMT
Honestly, I think most of the malice toward Tony is more telling about the haters than the hated. A lot of it seems to stem from the idea that being a father means forfeiting every other aspect of your humanity and dedicating yourself solely to the parenting of your child. That Tony's abandonment of his daughter is a mortal sin, and that the only way he can compensate for it is to be present and nurturing at all times, like a gardener tending a delicate flower.
That's an extremely juvenile attitude toward parenting, and in practice leads to a lot of unhappy families.
Now here's the turn: That's also what Tony is currently doing, and it's going disastrously. Tony is trying to be the 100% present, my-child-is-my-world parent, and is illustrating exactly why it doesn't work. He's smothering Annie by not allowing her to be an independent person, but he's convinced he's doing the right thing because she's now conforming to the superficial idea of a healthy child.
So in a weird way the haters are getting exactly what they wanted, they're just not recognizing it or giving credit for it because it's having the opposite outcome they expected.
As for how to feel about Tony... Tony's a screw-up. His backstory explains his motivations, but it doesn't really change the realities on the ground. He's ill-suited to being a parent and has made a mess of his life. Neither of those things are mortal sins. I can forgive Tony for being kind of a crappy person, because most of us are kind of crappy people. His redemption would be realizing that he can't have a positive impact on his daughter's life in this manner, and moving on to something better-suited to his talents (like teaching surgery or something).
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 23, 2015 8:20:08 GMT
Honestly, I think most of the malice toward Tony is more telling about the haters than the hated. A lot of it seems to stem from the idea that being a father means forfeiting every other aspect of your humanity and dedicating yourself solely to the parenting of your child. That Tony's abandonment of his daughter is a mortal sin, and that the only way he can compensate for it is to be present and nurturing at all times, like a gardener tending a delicate flower. Ok, so where did I infer or say straight out that a good parent must be present 100% of the time? I think that there is a time and place for selfishness for even parents, but: 1. It can be argued that being away from your kid without an idea of how long you're absent. 2. Whether it's some indulgence like a honeymoon, vacation or something which requires, one would still want to leave the kid with a means to contact or stay with someone like any family member or more relevantly, a trusted friend like Donald and Anja. But he didn't do so because he was unwilling to face his friends after Surma's death.* But then like anything in life, balance is the key with extremism of either kind rarely if ever being a good thing.** At any rate, I'm going to go with understanding most of his motives, but they're still inexcusable, not unforgivable. But the forgiveness is best granted through Tony seeking to make amends rather than due to sob story pity. 3. Just because people are crappy is no reason not to do better or try to do better. 4. Or his redemption is trying to find a balance. At the very least, keep up with Annie from time to time and not just when crap goes down. *And this is a point I'd like to see someone trying to rationalize, because I can't see any downside to Anthony informing Annie of his friends at The Court and a way to contact them from the getgo. I mean if there's one thing I haven't critiqued Tony for, it's certainly not sending Annie to The Court or being gone at all. **Whether it's being absent 100% of the time or being present and smother 100%. |
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Post by Rasselas on Aug 23, 2015 9:28:32 GMT
In the real world, people used to send their kids off to boarding schools all the time.
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 23, 2015 10:10:24 GMT
In the real world, people used to send their kids off to boarding schools all the time. , just that he left her with no one she could contact. I mean Refugee did make a good point in a PM a while back that he might have arranged for Anja to receive info on Annie being at The Court, but given the recent chapter showing how he was more consumed with facing anyone right after Surma's death? I think Annie and the Donlan's encounter was just a happy accident. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 23, 2015 14:45:43 GMT
In the real world, people used to send their kids off to boarding schools all the time. Or apprenticeships, trade schools, military academies, etc. At the time mostly for boys, but there were finishing schools for girls from wealthier families. People used to think that kids around the age of 12 needed experience outside their family to complete their development into early adulthood (16-18 years old). Not so much now, and I think they were at least partially right back then. Now most kids (in "Westernized" countries) wait until they are 18 to go to college, join the military, go on a religious mission, or live in some other structured way away from their family. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 23, 2015 17:35:40 GMT
In the real world, people used to send their kids off to boarding schools all the time. Or apprenticeships, trade schools, military academies, etc. At the time mostly for boys, but there were finishing schools for girls from wealthier families. People used to think that kids around the age of 12 needed experience outside their family to complete their development into early adulthood (16-18 years old). Not so much now, and I think they were at least partially right back then. Now most kids (in "Westernized" countries) wait until they are 18 to go to college, join the military, go on a religious mission, or live in some other structured way away from their family. I've heard it called extended adolescence. It was always the case that kids who went into the family business had big advantages (aside from nepotism) by being exposed to the trade from a young age and being mentored into it later. In some nations fosterage became a tradition too deepen bonds between allied families and because it was easier to discipline other people's kids than your own, thus producing more appreciative better-disciplined and more able youth. As the industrial revolution took hold and wealth increased it became a norm among those who could afford it to keep kids around a little longer instead of apprenticing them, marrying them off, or otherwise kicking them out the door after they had their main growth spurt post-puberty and became useful for work/marriage. But thanks to various social forces I should probably not Karkat-rant about here, it is now conventional wisdom that wealth should not be a goal and now as indirect results we have some new concepts in our society such as "feral," "student debt," and "launch failure." |
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