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Post by pxc on Aug 21, 2015 15:02:56 GMT
He didn't, I just summed up the core of his reasoning; He knew FULL WELL that some kind of essence/spirit/soul/whatever occured between Surma and Annie and that trying to reach Surma would INEVITABLY have consequences on Annie. And he went ahead and did it. He got what was coming for him. Eh, Tony is obtuse enough about the ether (one might even go so far as to say there's a certain amount of deliberate ignorance about it on his part) that I'm willing to bet even if he was directly TOLD by multiple sources that that was how fire-elemental/human offspring work he still wouldn't believe it. Which in itself is a problem. "I'm Tony Carver, I know better."
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Post by eyemyself on Aug 21, 2015 15:07:41 GMT
Eh, Tony is obtuse enough about the ether (one might even go so far as to say there's a certain amount of deliberate ignorance about it on his part) that I'm willing to bet even if he was directly TOLD by multiple sources that that was how fire-elemental/human offspring work he still wouldn't believe it. Which in itself is a problem. "I'm Tony Carver, I know better." True, people with unshakable belief in "This is the way the world is, I know it to be true and there is no new information, evidence, or experience that will change mt mind short of being hit over the head with an immutable clue-by-four of indisputable evidence that directly effects and contradicts me and cannnot be denied" tend to be difficult to reason with. Tony is his own worst enemy. Unfortunately, he is not responsible for himself alone and his obtuseness is both dangerous and damaging to Annie who is also subjected to the consequences.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2015 21:22:22 GMT
In point of fact, no reader can know much about the process by which Etheric creatures are born; most of the information that is available right now comes from Coyote, who will naturally omit the details so as to suggest a different course of events, usually diminishing his own influence. To quote a prominent example: "Of course I knew Renard was tricked!" -- but likewise, one could refer to his introduction to Annie when she first comes to the Forest; because in all his grandiose claims, truthful as they may be, he does not suggest his own spirit entering into its environment, which is more likely the case, I presume, than him forming a natural extension of the Forest, as he might want her to imagine. Tony has been accused of unreason because he ignores the heritable qualities of an Etheric species, but the fire elemental was supposedly born from wishful thinking in the first place. (Disregard Heraclit and puncture yourself: do you think of fire as an element?) After all, how could a human soul confer a consciousness wholly unlike it onto anything, even a flame? Suppose that Etheric creatures are born from human imagination more easily than their natures are altered by it after birth, due to the of a reality hardened by continual perception (whoops, summoned the ghost of Berkeley -- must make sure not to cut off my hand as antithetical retribution). Then, in effect, Tony's tragedy rests on his being born as a solitary man in a sea of long-established dreams, each of them the size of Leviathan; and his "single-mindedness" constitutes a flaw only insofar as he forgets, when tampering with the outside world, that his memory of Surma points to a volatile object. Seeing as his assumed failure dominates his perception of his daughter ("How could she live with the man that killed her mother?"), his refusal to accept fate harms him and others; I do not intend to deny this. Yet his actual failure, I think, is to regard death as erasure -- even though he could deduce that, since his recollection of Surma's flame, amplified by digital bonelasers, actually drew out Annie, said flame must have been one and the same. (Footnote: imaginaryfriend has said, and I would concur, that the fatic decision of life and death is not one for humans to make; the question remains whether and how the eternal scales by which humans judge their own species -- that of whose life deserves immortality and whose doesn't -- serve a different process.)
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Aug 21, 2015 22:17:40 GMT
He didn't, I just summed up the core of his reasoning; He knew FULL WELL that some kind of essence/spirit/soul/whatever occured between Surma and Annie and that trying to reach Surma would INEVITABLY have consequences on Annie. And he went ahead and did it. He got what was coming for him. No, he didn't. He didn't believe in the elemental nonsense, and only barely understands the ether. It's like blaming a computer illiterate parent for getting a computer virus - they know not what they do
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 22, 2015 4:38:53 GMT
imaginaryfriend has said, and I would concur, that the fatic decision of life and death is not one for humans to make; the question remains whether and how the eternal scales by which humans judge their own species -- that of whose life deserves immortality and whose doesn't -- serve a different process. I'd like to reemphasize- not to @korba but to the forum in general- that the Gunnerverse may indeed have enforcement mechanisms (self-appointed or myth-created or naturally-occurring or some/all of the above) for some of it's rules that RL does not. That is a big deal even if they are inconsistent. There is some precedent in the comic in how the Woods people asked Coyote to help them keep the Court in check.
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Post by Elysium on Aug 22, 2015 8:08:24 GMT
No, he didn't. He didn't believe in the elemental nonsense, and only barely understands the ether. Oh please, he's a scientist, he should've noticed that the weaker Surma got, the stonger Annie got. Any reasonable person would've at least be careful and not make preposterous decisions like go on a long hike instead of taking care of your child. What's more, by the time he foolishly cut his own arm off, he was in full ether territory, so basic logical reasoning should've told that this elemental stuff might have some relevancy after all, but no, he was so blindingly obsessed with his dead spouse he went with it. You can tell me he's flawed, human or whatever, he's still an incompetent idiot.
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 22, 2015 9:01:51 GMT
Eh, Tony is obtuse enough about the ether (one might even go so far as to say there's a certain amount of deliberate ignorance about it on his part) that I'm willing to bet even if he was directly TOLD by multiple sources that that was how fire-elemental/human offspring work he still wouldn't believe it. Which in itself is a problem. "I'm Tony Carver, I know better." IMO it's the main problem with him. The rest are mostly consequences - if he could think to ask those who know better, most of those would be insignificant. Falling into self-made rabbit hole almost down to "It's my personal responsibility to check my watch and tell the Sun it may rise now!" level is the cause. Oh please, he's a scientist, he should've noticed that the weaker Surma got, the stonger Annie got. Leaving aside ridiculous case of "Cum Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc" and strange idea of science in general here... It's noteworthy when terminally ill people gradually get weaker, while young children gradually get stronger. From what planet you are, again? You can tell me he's flawed, human or whatever, he's still an incompetent idiot. "I'll say what you just said, which proves I was right when claimed something opposite"?
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Post by Elysium on Aug 22, 2015 10:17:28 GMT
It's noteworthy when terminally ill people gradually get weaker, while young children gradually get stronger. From what planet you are, again? Oh yeah, also, it's eveyday that people catch mysterious diseases just after being told that having a child will cause your essence or whatever to gradually be tranferred to your child. Tony may not have believed that in the beginning, but seeing this waring unfold in front of his eyes for ELEVEN YEARS, should've made him at least carefully about messing around with forces he don't fully understand. "I'll say what you just said, which proves I was right when claimed something opposite"? I...what ?
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Post by stef1987 on Aug 22, 2015 12:12:27 GMT
"I knew full well that the FE spirit is passed from mother to daughter but I still went ahead and tried to bring it back" Goddamit Tony. He didn't try to bring back the fire elemental, he tried to bring back Surma. As interwoven as these things seem to be, they're not the same. Annie is NOT the reincarnation of Surma, people seem to forget this all the time, but they both where alive as 2 separate beings for at least 6 years. (I forgot how old Annie was when Surma died)
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Post by Elysium on Aug 22, 2015 13:14:19 GMT
He didn't try to bring back the fire elemental, he tried to bring back Surma. As interwoven as these things seem to be, they're not the same. [/quote] He tried to bring back Surma, but Surma's soul was passed to Annie (hence why Annie had to psychopomp her mom to the afterlife), so it would always had effects on Annie.
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Post by stef1987 on Aug 22, 2015 14:35:54 GMT
that's exactly my point; IMO, the fire isn't their soul, but something else, otherwise it makes no sense that they were alive at the same time.
but I guess we disagree on that
Also you messed up the quote
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Aug 23, 2015 0:19:37 GMT
No, he didn't. He didn't believe in the elemental nonsense, and only barely understands the ether. Oh please, he's a scientist, he should've noticed that the weaker Surma got, the stonger Annie got. Any reasonable person would've at least be careful and not make preposterous decisions like go on a long hike instead of taking care of your child. What's more, by the time he foolishly cut his own arm off, he was in full ether territory, so basic logical reasoning should've told that this elemental stuff might have some relevancy after all, but no, he was so blindingly obsessed with his dead spouse he went with it. You can tell me he's flawed, human or whatever, he's still an incompetent idiot. You even reading the chapter?? Tony literally doesn't even know what the ether is. He barely even knows it's called the ether. It's hard to be competent when you're lacking crucial information. And if you don't believe in supernatural nonsense in the world of GK, much like Tony doesn't, you're seriously hobbled in that sense. So no, you're wrong. He didn't know "FULL WELL" that the elemental was passed from mother and daughter. I mean good lord, there are users on this board who question that premise!
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 23, 2015 2:26:37 GMT
He seems so amused about being tricked into doing something at Annie's expense. No signs of regret, just a grin at the whole thing. Unless the next page has him drunkenly breaking down about it in front of Donny (or something at least), Tony is still a lost cause. He's just way too happy in his exposition, booze or not. Bear with it, for now. Did you ever see the Star Trek episode where Picard is coming to terms with the consequences of his assimilation into the Borg? The scene where he breaks down in front of his brother (laughter that turns to broken sobs) is one of the strongest ones in the entire series. Also, cherries. Yup. 'tis disconcerting enough when Star Trek legitimately serves as a baseline of making sense. But when it happens because someone got more detached from human behaviour than Athony Carver...
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Post by Elysium on Aug 23, 2015 2:30:18 GMT
So no, you're wrong. He didn't know "FULL WELL" that the elemental was passed from mother and daughter. Page 1549, Tony says: "How could [Antimony] live with the man that killed her mother", then Donny replies: "Surma knew the risk that she faced". Add to that Reynardine saying in Fire spike "we all knew it would happen, even your dammned father, especially him" All of this, especially Tony's statement, shows that he knew that something was up, else he wouldn't have called himself "the man that killed her mother". At that point, any reasonable human being, let alone a scientifically-minded one, would've been careful before messing aroud with forces he doesn't fully understand.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 23, 2015 6:34:46 GMT
Bear with it, for now. Did you ever see the Star Trek episode where Picard is coming to terms with the consequences of his assimilation into the Borg? The scene where he breaks down in front of his brother (laughter that turns to broken sobs) is one of the strongest ones in the entire series. Also, cherries. Yup. 'tis disconcerting enough when Star Trek legitimately serves as a baseline of making sense. But when it happens because someone got more detached from human behaviour than Athony Carver... I read somewhere the laugh is alleged to be evolved from a short loud call and is most similar to a dog's or wolf's bark. As Coyote might say, sometimes you just have to bark at the pain.
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Post by tootsiren on Aug 23, 2015 17:51:02 GMT
Rather than encountering a surly-but-dutiful librarian like Annie & Kat he ended up in the RotD's equivalent of a back-alley, where he stumbled upon a bunch of hardcases who decided to torture him. Why "decided to torture him"? They were promoting RotD cause... probably in accordance with the given mortal's express wishes, at that. I don't know, I'm just assuming members of the RotD have that kind of agency, and that the RotD as a whole doesn't intend to do any lasting harm. Mort seemed to be allowed to do whatever he wanted, and still had plenty of human traits. It's not too hard to imagine less-savory people becoming part of the RotD, and abusing their positions.
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Post by wombat140 on Aug 24, 2015 13:20:51 GMT
Whatever it says about Anthony Carver itself, it's interesting to me how his attitude to magic (i.e.: he doesn't want to know) typifies the Court's attitude to it. The Court (like Anthony) kind of know something about all this ether business, at least what they can't avoid from wilfully poking their noses into it all the time; it's more that they refuse to *accept* anything they're told about it unless they've tried it for themselves - they won't take "It just does, ok?" as an answer. And that's both their fatal flaw (Anthony's mega-successful visit to the astral plane, for instance) and the one chance of ever changing anything. The Forest side just wave their hands and say "that's the way it is". The Court want to know if there's any way it could not be. The difficulty is recognising which it's going to be this time - brave or stupid - BEFORE you bring disaster on yourself. Anthony has been making an almighty hash of that; I reserve judgment about the Court. They've succeeded in getting their own way with the ether a few times (Jeanne, for instance), but at what long-term cost?
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