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Post by deuswyvern on Jul 10, 2015 16:43:12 GMT
I think this basically confirms that the elemental is half of Annie's personality. It would also seem to confirm that she has always had feelings of resentment towards her father, but kept them suppressed. This explains why she has always been so quick to anger, it would only take something small to be more than she could handle.
In a sense, she has always been split in two, since she has felt both love and hatred towards her father, but has never been able to reconcile the two feelings. Now the split is a literal one.
I really don't think giving in to her anger is the right move, it would still be letting her father dominate her actions. She needs to get herself to a state where her emotions are not dominated by him to the degree that they have been in the past.
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Post by hajino on Jul 10, 2015 19:38:44 GMT
Oh Ysengrin... that is one toxic relationship right there. Poor guy.
But Annie has more oppurtunities to escape or develope the relationship with her father than Ysengrin could ever hope. A lot of people could help her, who are on an equal stand to her father and stop this emotional powerplay. Somebody stepping up to Coyote? Fat chance.
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Post by Fishy on Jul 10, 2015 22:05:36 GMT
See this is kinda nice, seeing Annie compare her own situation to that of a friend she dearly respects and coming to terms with how their respective authority figures are in their own ways only trying to help.
Actually wait no, that's just another incredibly one-sided toxic relationship. Alright elemental Annie, please continue with the burning.
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Post by keef on Jul 10, 2015 22:31:58 GMT
I think Fire Lady remembering this shows that she is Annie, and not a separate entity. At least, not entirely. Half (or most of) Annie, at any rate. Two separate beings sharing the same memories: today's lesson is that the elemental is more than just fiery rage. Can't really believe they can exist completely free of each other. In that case Tony's job is done and he can go. A fascinating comparison. I never thought of an analogy between Annie/Anthony and Ysengrin/Coyote. Coyote "seems" to eat Y's maddening memories (whether that is true or not...), but the act and results are shockingly inhumane. One could easily make the case, that Anthony quest to expel the Fire Elemental (whether that is true or not...) is equally disturbing. Anthony may not be a bundle of laughs, but he is probably just a well meaning man, wanting the best for his child. The problem is he doesn't consult anyone and does not consider Annie's opinions, feelings, friendships, or anything Annie achieved without his help, of importance. The kind of guy that knows what's best, even if it kills you. Our world is full of them. Coyote is a god, to him the world exists for his entertainment; he is constantly bored, and the guy he thought was worth the trip to the Europe in the first place, went out to chase skirt and never came back. And now he is stuck with somebody else's sidekick. He is a lot more unpleasant and dangerous than Anthony will ever be. (not really important at the moment, I know) Also, note how the forest part is subtly framed with rounded corners. Tom's attention to detail is excellent as always. It's for this reason that Panel 6 is one of my favorite ever. We still have weakened Ys, though not as pronounced because he's not trying to have Annie for chow, and more amazingly, his tree body is in the background, with Ys' cloak working as part of the trunk. I love that tree. This seriously may be one of my favorite Tom drawings. Looking at the update today, I was silent for some time, and then said some words out loud.. The last thing I expected, as usual. And al the friendship moments between Annie and Ys are great. |
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Post by youwiththeface on Jul 10, 2015 23:47:12 GMT
Anthony may not be a bundle of laughs, but he is probably just a well meaning man, wanting the best for his child. The problem is he doesn't consult anyone and does not consider Annie's opinions, feelings, friendships, or anything Annie achieved without his help, of importance. The kind of guy that knows what's best, even if it kills you. Our world is full of them. Coyote is a god, to him the world exists for his entertainment; he is constantly bored, and the guy he thought was worth the trip to the Europe in the first place, went out to chase skirt and never came back. And now he is stuck with somebody else's sidekick. He is a lot more unpleasant and dangerous than Anthony will ever be. (not really important at the moment, I know) Anthony however can do more damage to Annie than Coyote could ever hope to. |
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 11, 2015 3:20:09 GMT
So, are Coyote and Anthony going to compete in "who is more annoying"? (Q: How have his memories of hating Coyote evaded 'safekeeping'?) Why won't they? Hmm, interesting comparison, Ysengrin controlled by his forest master Coyote, Annie controlled by her father Tony. Not really controlled. He is not even capable of perceiving half of what she does (case in point: her splitting, which he didn't notice - and that has a side obvious and unsettling for everyone else around her), so at most he can get underfoot half of the time. or purposefully doing something different to manipulate her father back. What for, and why "back"? She seems to do the "humor the fool" routine - "uh huh (nod)... yes (nod)... that's very interesting (nod)". I think Fire Lady remembering this shows that she is Annie, and not a separate entity. At least, not entirely. Half (or most of) Annie, at any rate. Two separate beings sharing the same memories: today's lesson is that the elemental is more than just fiery rage. I hereby claim half a gunnercookie.  Can't really believe they can exist completely free of each other. In that case Tony's job is done and he can go. What "Tony's job"? He's a Biology teacher right now. |
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Post by geoduck on Jul 11, 2015 5:32:17 GMT
Not really controlled. He is not even capable of perceiving half of what she does (case in point: her splitting, which he didn't notice - and that has a side obvious and unsettling for everyone else around her), so at most he can get underfoot half of the time. What "Tony's job"? He's a Biology teacher right now. We still don't know for a fact that Annie did this to herself with no involvement from Tony. And it's pretty clear that Tony didn't come back to the Court just to be a biology teacher. But yes, how much of what he's doing with/to/for Annie is his own initiative and how much is officially for the Court also remains to be seen. |
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Post by keef on Jul 11, 2015 10:48:03 GMT
or purposefully doing something different to manipulate her father back. What for, and why "back"? She seems to do the "humor the fool" routine - "uh huh (nod)... yes (nod)... that's very interesting (nod)". Looks like it. She probably doesn't want to disappoint him. Maybe she thinks he won't be around very long, but I don't know why she would think that. Ha, obviously that's only a day job he took so he could be more damaging and abusive to poor little innocent Annie. He now outperforms the Gods in that respect, or so I'm told. But at night he replaces himself with an evil (and probably abusive) clone to fool Rey. He then teleports to his secret moonbase on the moon, to fire bonelasers and so on. (Or he could be planning a way to separate Annie and the elemental, but that's boring) |
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Post by Sauzels on Jul 11, 2015 16:51:38 GMT
The elemental looks childlike in the second panel. Interesting.
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Post by youwiththeface on Jul 11, 2015 17:37:59 GMT
Ha, obviously that's only a day job he took so he could be more damaging and abusive to poor little innocent Annie. Well, yeah. |
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Post by davidm on Jul 11, 2015 20:26:17 GMT
Poor Annie has now added "split personality disorder" to all her other mental problems. Sad to see her bipolar reaction to her dad. Sad that she has to talk to imaginary animal friends to cope. She even thinks her stuffed toy "Renard" is alive.
What I think this proves is stuffing all the crazy people in a mental hospital like Gunnerkrigg Court does not work. They feed off each other, start to think they were fairies and forest animals or genius with mechanical things, or that robots can walk and talk like humans.
As well when you get concentration of this many gullible mental patients in one spot, you also obviously get other problems like drug traffickers... it is clear that someone has been selling the kids LSD or other hallucinogenics, mental illness alone is not enough to explain all the mass delusions.
My advice to Anthony... your daughter is messed up, the mental hospital is not helping. Dr. Jones and the rest of the psychiatrists aren't really interested in curing her problems, just in cashing in till the medical insurance runs out. So take her out of the hospital, take her home, find someone who can provide 1 on 1 private care not tied to latest psychiatric fads. And I know you took your wifes death as hard as your daughter did, but maybe it is time to finally move on, find another woman who can act as mother to Antimony and wife for you. I think Surma would want that.
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Post by mordekai on Jul 11, 2015 23:14:17 GMT
A (maybe) relevant point: This fire elemental isn't just part of Annie. It's also a part of Surma, and probably a part of several generations of women back in time.
This creature isn't just angry because she's being mistreated. She's angry because her daughter is being mistreated. She's angry because her granddaughter is being mistreated...etc. She's probably angry because Anthony helped Surma to commit suicide by pregnancy too.
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Post by todd on Jul 12, 2015 0:13:48 GMT
Does anyone else beside me think that the "kind-of-cut-off-hair" of the fire elemental looks like wings at times? (Which makes it seem all the more disquieting, somehow.)
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Post by Daedalus on Jul 12, 2015 1:15:11 GMT
I'm sure someone already said this, but I'm wondering now which of these two is the 'real Annie'. If the Elemental has that memory, does the Annie-shaped Annie also have it? Have the memories been duplicated? Or do they each have different memories, with the Annie we saw last chapter only remembering positive memories like Ysengrin does?
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Post by Refugee on Jul 12, 2015 2:29:36 GMT
She's probably angry because Anthony helped Surma to commit suicide by pregnancy too. I expect that's stretching things. Humans are mortal. If any of Annie's ancestresses hadn't had daughters, she would have aged and died anyway--and we do not know what effect that would have had on the elemental. For all we know, the elemental pushes its hosts to have a child fairly early on, so that it always has young, healthy hosts. For all we know, the elemental really likes hot sex. For all we know, the elemental has no emotions of its own, just pure passion, for good or ill. Its feelings towards Anthony are nothing but Annie's. For all we know. |
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Post by davidm on Jul 12, 2015 3:21:10 GMT
I'm sure someone already said this, but I'm wondering now which of these two is the 'real Annie'. If the Elemental has that memory, does the Annie-shaped Annie also have it? Have the memories been duplicated? I guess that both have all memories, both are part of original Annie, "Often the parts have to work together, as none of them is individually capable of what the original character was." - tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LiteralSplitPersonalityOccasionally you get a variation like Superman III where instead the "good side" has to battle and defeat his "evil side". Anthony might view world this way with fire elemental being the evil side. A world view tied to popular eastern religion and often to martial arts (Anthony did martial arts with Annie) is goal to overcome things such as hunger for food, sexual desire, etc, to reach a calm nirvana "imperturbable stillness of mind after the fires of desire, aversion, and delusion have been finally extinguished" Jedi of Star Wars are probably influenced by this philosophy, including reason for "don't get married". In that world view, nirvana "love" is always "calm", rather than emotional, sort of like "Mr. Spock" of Star Trek fame. It does not matter if the food you eat tastes horrible, only that it has ideal nutrition, you have transcended earthly things like taste, comfort of your bed, etc. If house is on fire and mate/kids are in danger of being burned alive you would calmly try to rescue them without earthly emotions, similar to "ideal mindset" of monk fighting in martial arts, meditating with blank mind, etc. (Obviously there are all sorts of other philosophies, eg in our western world is common for emotions to be seen as good including the strong "instinctive" concern/love for family, enjoying tasty food is good, "reward for your hard work", and even things like anger may be seen as asset as long as for good reason and you don't carry grudge over to next day. In common western ideal "all emotional" to rescue family when house burning down would be seen as asset, a display of "good" love) |
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Post by hajino on Jul 12, 2015 6:08:25 GMT
I'm sure someone already said this, but I'm wondering now which of these two is the 'real Annie'. If the Elemental has that memory, does the Annie-shaped Annie also have it? Have the memories been duplicated? Or do they each have different memories, with the Annie we saw last chapter only remembering positive memories like Ysengrin does? Damn. That is a really creepy idea. Hopefully it is wrong. But if the 'Fire Annie' is the one with the bad memories she is locked away all day and would not do her job if something bad happens to 'Happy go lucky Annie' as she would get hit with the bad experiences... But that would mean that it really is a case of split personality which is something that would have a huge impact on the story telling of the comic far longer than 10 chapters and so on... Unlikely. But if the 'Happy go lucky Annie' only remembers the few good memories of her father it would explain how she can act so nonchalant about the rather catastrophic dinner. Wouldn't quite explain the "that went well" sentence, but close enough. |
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meltea
Junior Member
Heavy rain of snow
Posts: 51
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Post by meltea on Jul 12, 2015 11:07:35 GMT
Poor Annie has now added "split personality disorder" to all her other mental problems. Sad to see her bipolar reaction to her dad. Sad that she has to talk to imaginary animal friends to cope. She even thinks her stuffed toy "Renard" is alive. What I think this proves is stuffing all the crazy people in a mental hospital like Gunnerkrigg Court does not work. They feed off each other, start to think they were fairies and forest animals or genius with mechanical things, or that robots can walk and talk like humans. As well when you get concentration of this many gullible mental patients in one spot, you also obviously get other problems like drug traffickers... it is clear that someone has been selling the kids LSD or other hallucinogenics, mental illness alone is not enough to explain all the mass delusions. My advice to Anthony... your daughter is messed up, the mental hospital is not helping. Dr. Jones and the rest of the psychiatrists aren't really interested in curing her problems, just in cashing in till the medical insurance runs out. So take her out of the hospital, take her home, find someone who can provide 1 on 1 private care not tied to latest psychiatric fads. And I know you took your wifes death as hard as your daughter did, but maybe it is time to finally move on, find another woman who can act as mother to Antimony and wife for you. I think Surma would want that. I love this! |
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Post by OGRuddawg on Jul 12, 2015 21:40:26 GMT
I think this flashback shows that Ysengrin has more autonomy than people might assume. He has taught Annie many things about the forest, some of it without Coyote's supervision, and he seems to have a large amount of free will when Coyote is not manipulating him. I quite like that Ysengrin is not just Coyote's minion, but his own person with a complicated history. That is why Ysenrin is probably my favorite forest dweller.
Rant over
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Post by keef on Jul 12, 2015 21:43:13 GMT
I'm sure someone already said this, but I'm wondering now which of these two is the 'real Annie'. Neither? The fleshy one is not a shadow of the girl we know and love, and the fiery one; imagine her sipping tea with the Donlans.. And do they now acquire separate memories, or is there some sort of telepathic bond. Can they bear to be apart for more then a day? All the nice memories of daddy can come along to class, all the angry and desperate ones stay with the elemental. I can't really see that, fire girl has that memory of Ys simply because she was there as a part of the complete Antimony. So yes, probably the memories have been duplicated, or she was always a separate being inside Annie, and remembers the same things, but through the eyes of a fire elemental. For the moment I think the elemental is grounded simply because she is Annie's temper, her fire. Fire elementals are usually associated with a choleric temperament. Hotheads. And now the elemental is a separate being.. So if we think that Annie cutting her hair had something to do with the separation of the fire elemental (which I certainly do, especially given how the cut is reflected on the elemental), what do we make of Surma's similar haircutUnless Surma also separated her fire elemental...? ... is this the first time the elemental is on her own? I had the notion for some time that she might be some kind of hive-mind, storing memories of all the women she once was the soul of, but there is no proof of that whatsoever. I like the idea that she now has time to remember, or at least think about who and what she is.Looks like it, It is not very likely any of Annie's ancestors ever had anything like Coyote's tooth. |
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quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
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Post by quark on Jul 12, 2015 22:39:04 GMT
late to the party, but here it goes: the longer this goes on, the more disturbing the cut in the fire elemental's hair gets. Maybe because it isn't really hair, it's really like an appendage to the fire elemental, and the cut is decidedly artificial.
I don't really think it's just the fire elemental remembering things. I think she's not very capable of rational thought right now, if at all. I think this memory just explains why she hesitates, and can't go through with burning everything - her love is still stronger than her hate. And neither fire-elemental-Annie nor mask-Annie knows that resisting Anthony has nothing to do with her feelings for him, but her respect (and maybe love) for herself.
Standing up for herself and setting clear boundaries to what Anthony can and can't do can be done with love (and a little help from her friends).
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