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Post by machival on Jun 20, 2015 18:55:51 GMT
Can't see her actually committing suicide though an attempt is believable. There are other plot threads to be resolved that she is important to. Especially she and Kat are both crucial to the Jeanne plotline, Kat to disable the arrow and Annie to guide Jeanne into the ether. Then there are things like the robot goddess plotline for Kat. And what the Court's aims are and its origin. Dramatically Annie is needed for the continuation of much of the story. A suicide attempt would be shocking enough. What would happen if she ran to the bridge and jumped off? Of course, there are those tick tocks... but still... what possible plot lines continue from there? Would Jeanne eat her up? It would be suicide for her to be there open to Jeanne's attacks regardless of whether the Tick Tocks reached her. If the tick tocks catch her? She waits until George and Andrew rescue her. Based on what we've seen jeanne can be kept at bay by light, which Antimony can generate plenty of. If the tick tocks don't catch her, she won't survive the fall. Having to be rescued by the teleport squad might allow for an impromptu attempt at dealing with Jeanne permanently, as well. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jun 20, 2015 19:29:31 GMT
If the tic-tocs don't catch her, she won't survive the fall. If she can still use the ether in her emotionally lobotomized state (we've seen connections between emotions and etheric powers) she can levitate well enough to not die from the fall. But if she's throwing herself off of the bridge, I'm assuming she wouldn't try to save herself. |
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Post by machival on Jun 20, 2015 21:23:03 GMT
If the tic-tocs don't catch her, she won't survive the fall. If she can still use the ether in her emotionally lobotomized state (we've seen connections between emotions and etheric powers) she can levitate well enough to not die from the fall. But if she's throwing herself off of the bridge, I'm assuming she wouldn't try to save herself. Have we actually seen Antimony levitate? I know Surma could do it, but I don't remember Antimony ever floating through the air outside of her "out of body experiences." |
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Post by Daedalus on Jun 20, 2015 21:32:32 GMT
If she can still use the ether in her emotionally lobotomized state (we've seen connections between emotions and etheric powers) she can levitate well enough to not die from the fall. But if she's throwing herself off of the bridge, I'm assuming she wouldn't try to save herself. Have we actually seen Antimony levitate? I know Surma could do it, but I don't remember Antimony ever floating through the air outside of her "out of body experiences." She may be doing it here. And we know she can exert force on herself* from this page. But you're right, we haven't seen her fly. *which does not follow our world's physics |
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Post by machival on Jun 20, 2015 21:39:15 GMT
Have we actually seen Antimony levitate? I know Surma could do it, but I don't remember Antimony ever floating through the air outside of her "out of body experiences." She may be doing it here. And we know she can exert force on herself* from this page. But you're right, we haven't seen her fly. *which does not follow our world's physics Keep in mind this page though, which suggests that Much of Annie's interaction with Coyote in Totem was an out of body experience. The pushing herself thing is likely quite similar to whatever mechanism Surma used to levitate, though, so maybe Annie could levitate if she had little choice but to try. |
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Post by TBeholder on Jun 21, 2015 2:33:29 GMT
Though her off-stage narration dropped out of the story long ago. I'm wondering myself how long the situation will last, in terms of pages and chapters. It'll limit the amount of variety of stories (how can the comic focus on anything other than Anthony's restrictions over Annie and Kat's indignant response?), but it doesn't seem like something that can quickly be resolved. Feed not... The assumption is plain self-contradictory. while I'm personally on the fence about how purposefully manipulative Anthony Carver is, several of the arguments against him being so are... because he's acting like awkward jerk making easily refutable statements. Same deal, actually. This doesn't make much sense for you, but for e.g. internet-commissars or tumblrinas it's the shining height of manipulative behaviour.  Then again, if we'll look at both issues from another angle - "you can't fool all the people all the time, but..." Skunks aren't the best masters of disguise, but they don't need to be. In the case of Anthony(?), if the goal is merely to prevent people from approaching too close for a while, "a jerk spouting excuses so half-assed they insults intelligence of everyone in the room from thermostats and up" is exactly the sort of mask that works. if/when Annie breaks her dependency on her father, there is still the question of what she can do as a minor beyond just being defiant and short of killing him with fire. * Assuming that the Wisp was actually real and not Coyote playing a trick on Annie. What could she need to do? As in, when demonstratively ignoring him with expression of either pity or revulsion (depending on how exactly it ends) won't be enough? And in a pinch, she can always turn and walk over the bridge, what can anyone do about this - shoot her? Because grabbing a living firestorm does not look remotely like a good idea. Something I want to point out: We are wishing for Annie to be rescued (or recover on her own) and Anthony to suffer some punishment or humiliation. Donald Donlan is a friend of Annie, but also a friend of Anthony. He'll be trying to help both of them. ...and then there's Kat.  |
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Post by youwiththeface on Jun 21, 2015 2:33:53 GMT
As for Annie, she really doesn't seem to behave like an abuse victim. She seems a lot more like someone who is trying to come to grip with a massive change in their life. How does an abuse victim behave? Is there some set of behaviors that they all exhibit? But in any case, what's to say it isn't both anyway? |
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madragoran
Full Member
"If he trully does hurt you, I will rend the flesh from his bones on your word"
Posts: 232
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Post by madragoran on Jun 21, 2015 5:49:04 GMT
oh.. er... why are we discussing Annie attempting suicide? Yeah I know this is a work of fiction so "anything" may happen (within the rules set out in the fictional universe - fictional integrity) but suicide? Suicide is not romantic or liberating (I am not saying the person who suggested this is defending this position, I am giving my opinion). Suicide is a huge mistake and a defeat. It's also a manipulative move, playing one the not-dead person's emotions. I am not talking about assisted euthanasia. I am talking about a kid out there who is having a horrible time (real or perceived). Asking for help can be difficult but it's the productive thing to do. Asking for help changes stuff. It's not a full stop. Keep safe folks and read Gunnerkrigg court! |
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Jun 21, 2015 7:00:44 GMT
^^^^ suicide came up regarding Annie because some of the readers here overreact too much. Yep. It's the impostor Seed Bismuth all over again. But this time, Coyote isn't there to snap Annie out of it - she has to figure this out for herself this time. Annie broke the Wisp's glamour and then Coyote chomped on it*. So if/when Annie breaks her dependency on her father, there is still the question of what she can do as a minor beyond just being defiant and short of killing him with fire. Annie couldn't see through the wisp's lies and domineering authority without Coyote's hints. Tony isn't a liar, but he's hiding the truth and he's certainly being domineering. That's the way these two tests relate, and why it's important that she plays a significant role in standing up to her dad. What they do with Tony after that, well, that's not something to worry about until we start getting the impression we're even heading in that direction. It's like worrying about where you're gonna to put your trophy before you've played the game. And even if you do worry about that, your first thought shouldn't be, "I guess since it doesn't quite fit the decor, I'll have to bulldoze my house" |
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Post by justcurious on Jun 21, 2015 10:43:12 GMT
oh.. er... why are we discussing Annie attempting suicide? Yeah I know this is a work of fiction so "anything" may happen (within the rules set out in the fictional universe - fictional integrity) but suicide? Suicide is not romantic or liberating (I am not saying the person who suggested this is defending this position, I am giving my opinion). Suicide is a huge mistake and a defeat. It's also a manipulative move, playing one the not-dead person's emotions. I am not talking about assisted euthanasia. I am talking about a kid out there who is having a horrible time (real or perceived). Asking for help can be difficult but it's the productive thing to do. Asking for help changes stuff. It's not a full stop. Keep safe folks and read Gunnerkrigg court! I raised the possibility because as far as I can see the only way to resolve Annie's situation in a short enough time to stop the story from dragging was some shocking event. It has to be something that is an outcome of what has happened and I could only think of two possibilities that fitted. A suicide attempt was the less likely one from a storytelling point of view. I think it will be at least in part an outcome of the events in "Divine". However in real life suicide is a possible outcome of abuse. A few days ago I saw an account of a girl in the US who had committed suicide after bein humiliated by her father and the humiliation getting posted on line. THe humilation involved having her hair cut short. Tom has done a very realistic depiction of abuse and would be quite willing to do this if he thought that the story demanded it. Teen suicide happens a lot because they don't have enough experience to have a sense of proportion on their troubles. They haven't yet learnt that "This too shall pass.". |
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dreki
New Member
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Post by dreki on Jun 21, 2015 18:29:12 GMT
oh.. er... why are we discussing Annie attempting suicide? Yeah I know this is a work of fiction so "anything" may happen (within the rules set out in the fictional universe - fictional integrity) but suicide? Suicide is not romantic or liberating (I am not saying the person who suggested this is defending this position, I am giving my opinion). Suicide is a huge mistake and a defeat. It's also a manipulative move, playing one the not-dead person's emotions. I am not talking about assisted euthanasia. I am talking about a kid out there who is having a horrible time (real or perceived). Asking for help can be difficult but it's the productive thing to do. Asking for help changes stuff. It's not a full stop. Keep safe folks and read Gunnerkrigg court! Actually, suicide is EXACTLY like assisted euthanasia. People only consider it because they have such a miserably low quality of life that death seems like a better alternative. Suicide is not an act of manipulation- it is an act of DESPERATION. I sincerely hope that you've attempted suicide yourself, and that you aren't passing such disgusting judgement when you've never even experienced such crippling emotional pain. It's wonderful that you were able to have positive changes from asking for help- but the cruel reality is that most people who commit suicide have asked for help. Repeatedly. And they never got it, they never had those positive, productive changes. Being suicidal almost always involves truly believing that you have no value, that no one will care if you die, that anyone who does love you will be better off without you. Some people will do it hoping that their death will at least draw attention to the suffering and help other people, that at least their death will have some meaning. But these people feel their lives are so worthless that the only way they can contribute anything to the world is to die. That's not about manipulation. Seriously- why would anyone kill themselves as manipulation? You get nothing out of it! Painting suicidal people as selfish manipulators only serves to make them feel worse about themselves. People who commit suicide are not selfish. They are in pain and they deserved help- not to be lectured about how they were just too lazy to just reach out, even though most people who commit suicide reach out repeatedly and can even have a strong support network that still isn't enough to fix the pain. And the reason people are discussing suicide is because it's not at all uncommon for abuse victims to become suicidal, and it's not impossible that Annie will feel so hopeless. Abuse victims get manipulated into being unable to see the abuse, unable to accept help. If Annie acknowledged that her father's actions were wrong and wanted to do something about it, she has a veritable army who would stand behind her and help her- that army is half-formed already, desperately trying to help her realize that what's happening is wrong and she deserves better. Yet she brushes aside their attempts to help because she's so wrapped up in the abuse that she can't see it. That happens. It's happened so many times. It's heart-wrenching and horrifying to watch. It would be absolutely realistic for Annie to be unable to accept outside help or accept the damage her father is doing to her until he pushes her so far that she feels so hopeless that she actually tries to kill herself. It happens. And, you want to know what's truly horrific? Sometimes that still isn't enough to make the victim wake up and break free. Given the nature of the comic- it almost certainly would be, should that be the path we go down. But there are victims of abuse who are so enmeshed in the abuse that even after repeatedly trying to kill themselves, they still can't leave. Now- I highly doubt that we'll be going down that path. I much more expect Annie to run to the forest than try to take her own life. But I can see why people would consider it a possibility. |
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Post by keef on Jun 21, 2015 20:41:07 GMT
I sincerely hope that you've attempted suicide yourself I don't think this is the place to say things like this in whatever context. I don't think there is a place to say things like this. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jun 21, 2015 21:34:33 GMT
Actually, suicide is EXACTLY like assisted euthanasia. People only consider it because they have such a miserably low quality of life that death seems like a better alternative. Suicide is not an act of manipulation- it is an act of DESPERATION...Being suicidal almost always involves truly believing that you have no value, that no one will care if you die, that anyone who does love you will be better off without you. Some people will do it hoping that their death will at least draw attention to the suffering and help other people, that at least their death will have some meaning. But these people feel their lives are so worthless that the only way they can contribute anything to the world is to die. That's not about manipulation...Seriously- why would anyone kill themselves as manipulation? You get nothing out of it! Painting suicidal people as selfish manipulators only serves to make them feel worse about themselves. People who commit suicide are not selfish. They are in pain and they deserved help- not to be lectured about how they were just too lazy to just reach out, even though most people who commit suicide reach out repeatedly and can even have a strong support network that still isn't enough to fix the pain. Although I agree that suicide itself - attempted or not - is absolutely an act of depression and desperation, one of my family member has repeatedly used the threat of suicide to manipulate people around her. This obviously isn't what's happening with Annie, but it's worth pointing out that sometimes suicide and emotional manipulation are tied together. And the reason people are discussing suicide is because it's not at all uncommon for abuse victims to become suicidal, and it's not impossible that Annie will feel so hopeless. Abuse victims get manipulated into being unable to see the abuse, unable to accept help. If Annie acknowledged that her father's actions were wrong and wanted to do something about it, she has a veritable army who would stand behind her and help her- that army is half-formed already, desperately trying to help her realize that what's happening is wrong and she deserves better. Yet she brushes aside their attempts to help because she's so wrapped up in the abuse that she can't see it. That happens. It's happened so many times. It's heart-wrenching and horrifying to watch. I entirely agree. I don't think that Annie will become suicidal, but Tom has sucker punched us for the sake of realism before... I sincerely hope that you've attempted suicide yourself, and that you aren't passing such disgusting judgement when you've never even experienced such crippling emotional pain. Regardless of the fact that I agree with the factual content of the rest of your post... I agree with keef that this is unacceptable to say here. There is no place for this whatsoever on this board. |
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madragoran
Full Member
"If he trully does hurt you, I will rend the flesh from his bones on your word"
Posts: 232
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Post by madragoran on Jun 22, 2015 8:24:49 GMT
oh.. er... why are we discussing Annie attempting suicide? Yeah I know this is a work of fiction so "anything" may happen (within the rules set out in the fictional universe - fictional integrity) but suicide? Suicide is not romantic or liberating (I am not saying the person who suggested this is defending this position, I am giving my opinion). Suicide is a huge mistake and a defeat. It's also a manipulative move, playing one the not-dead person's emotions. I am not talking about assisted euthanasia. I am talking about a kid out there who is having a horrible time (real or perceived). Asking for help can be difficult but it's the productive thing to do. Asking for help changes stuff. It's not a full stop. Keep safe folks and read Gunnerkrigg court! Actually, suicide is EXACTLY like assisted euthanasia. People only consider it because they have such a miserably low quality of life that death seems like a better alternative. Suicide is not an act of manipulation- it is an act of DESPERATION. I sincerely hope that you've attempted suicide yourself, and that you aren't passing such disgusting judgement when you've never even experienced such crippling emotional pain. It's wonderful that you were able to have positive changes from asking for help- but the cruel reality is that most people who commit suicide have asked for help. Repeatedly. And they never got it, they never had those positive, productive changes. Being suicidal almost always involves truly believing that you have no value, that no one will care if you die, that anyone who does love you will be better off without you. Some people will do it hoping that their death will at least draw attention to the suffering and help other people, that at least their death will have some meaning. But these people feel their lives are so worthless that the only way they can contribute anything to the world is to die. That's not about manipulation. Seriously- why would anyone kill themselves as manipulation? You get nothing out of it! Painting suicidal people as selfish manipulators only serves to make them feel worse about themselves. People who commit suicide are not selfish. They are in pain and they deserved help- not to be lectured about how they were just too lazy to just reach out, even though most people who commit suicide reach out repeatedly and can even have a strong support network that still isn't enough to fix the pain. And the reason people are discussing suicide is because it's not at all uncommon for abuse victims to become suicidal, and it's not impossible that Annie will feel so hopeless. Abuse victims get manipulated into being unable to see the abuse, unable to accept help. If Annie acknowledged that her father's actions were wrong and wanted to do something about it, she has a veritable army who would stand behind her and help her- that army is half-formed already, desperately trying to help her realize that what's happening is wrong and she deserves better. Yet she brushes aside their attempts to help because she's so wrapped up in the abuse that she can't see it. That happens. It's happened so many times. It's heart-wrenching and horrifying to watch. It would be absolutely realistic for Annie to be unable to accept outside help or accept the damage her father is doing to her until he pushes her so far that she feels so hopeless that she actually tries to kill herself. It happens. And, you want to know what's truly horrific? Sometimes that still isn't enough to make the victim wake up and break free. Given the nature of the comic- it almost certainly would be, should that be the path we go down. But there are victims of abuse who are so enmeshed in the abuse that even after repeatedly trying to kill themselves, they still can't leave. Now- I highly doubt that we'll be going down that path. I much more expect Annie to run to the forest than try to take her own life. But I can see why people would consider it a possibility. Dear dreki, since you've taken the time to reply to my post and while I do not generally talk about this with strangers, allow me to present myself. And this is just what this will be. I am not doing this to defend my case or to explain why I think like I do or anything of that kidney. Please also note that since I do not know you and I do not make assumptions about you. Furthermore I apologise to fellow Court readers for doing this here. I am sorry if this is disturbing or in bad taste and if an admin thinks this should be deleted please let me know. I have chronic depression and panic attacks and dissassosiative episodes. When my depression is at a real low (and it was worse when I was a teen, episodes would span weeks not days) I have had suicidal tendencies. As a young adult I did make a detailed plan of how I'd do it . I was lucky enough to lack the opportunity to carry the plan out, or to aquire a support network as an adult or to be too lazy to carry out the plan (or any other reason you want to name, feel free). I am now 43 years old and I've lived with this curse, this madness since I was a kid. What I've come to realise (and again that is who I am so disregard this if it suits you) is that while I may feel worthless and alone and unloved this is all bullshit that my mind is trying to convince me off . Reaching out to people has worked for me and well I am still here, so there. I plan to be here for as long as I can too.
For anyone considering suicide please call your local helplines. Talk to someone. Live long and prosper.
Thanks for reading/ not reading.
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Post by Rasselas on Jun 22, 2015 22:45:04 GMT
It's a very difficult subject and it's easy to say the wrong thing. I believe dreki said the wrong thing there, even if I agree with the general gist of his post. Still, I don't think we should be quick to judge anyone's experiences without knowing them. We all have our own inner demons, and our own ways of struggling against them. Dreki's and mandragoran's obviously drastically differ.
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