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Post by fuzzyone on Jun 15, 2015 12:49:29 GMT
I think that was a Hint. Anthony at LEAST suspects that ownership was passed to Kat. Which is likely making him all the more "disappointed" in Annie... because that would mean she lied to him. As someone who has been in the parent role, and is assuming it proper shortly (engaged to a woman with a child) I know that a child lying to their parent is seldom something that encourages or fills a parent with pride.
I also note a major difference in how they refer to Rey. Anthony referred to him as "Reynardine," which is the name of a demon. As opposed to "Renard," the fox from ancient fables. Anthony calls him a demon, whereas the rest refer to him as the (very flawed) hero of folk tales.
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Post by ninjaraven on Jun 15, 2015 13:12:25 GMT
Katsuvius erupts! Oh no, it is too late to evacuate!! But yeah, Anthony will probably ignore Kat's outburst. I am more worried about what may happen if Anthony decides Kat's outburst is worth paying attention to. I get the distinct feeling that you do not want to get on Tony's bad side. Plus, I don't want Annie being further isolated from her remaining friends than she already is. Kat seriously needs to get her emotions in check at this point, or she may end up complicating matters even more for Annie. I expect Donnie will work on Tony later and in private - he knows he won't get straight answers to some questions in front of Anja and the girls. Looking forward to the inevitable Guy Talk session later  |
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Post by aline on Jun 15, 2015 13:15:55 GMT
Kat must be furious that her dad suddenly changed the subject. He went "ahem" very quickly there. I wonder what it is that he is so frightened to mention at the dinner table.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jun 15, 2015 13:19:47 GMT
Will Kat go full Angel? (Ooh! Forgot that Paz saw that!) I believe Paz seeing Kat in that form was due to the lingering effect of the etheric distortion coupled with Seraphs' presence and belief in the Angel. Maybe Paz's ability also made her more sensitive than most people. None of that is present at this dinner. I might as well state the obvious: Kat is going to need a long and serious Paz hug after this dinner. |
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Post by ctso74 on Jun 15, 2015 14:14:37 GMT
Kat must be furious that her dad suddenly changed the subject. He went "ahem" very quickly there. I wonder what it is that he is so frightened to mention at the dinner table. Their work may involve one of the girls (or both), and he went silent to protect them from some truth. Donald's "ahem" may have been an acknowledgment, that Anthony couldn't talk about it, there in front of her (them). It's hard to say, without knowing what Donny and Tony are up to, within the cult-like system of the Court. Secrets in secrets. Or it could be exactly what it looks like. A flawed and dunce-like Tony was worried his daughter was hanging out with a toy, possessed by a demon and former suitor of his late wife. Like sands through an hourglass... |
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Post by arf on Jun 15, 2015 14:39:26 GMT
Will Kat go full Angel? (Ooh! Forgot that Paz saw that!) I believe Paz seeing Kat in that form was due to the lingering effect of the etheric distortion coupled with Seraphs' presence and belief in the Angel. Maybe Paz's ability also made her more sensitive than most people. None of that is present at this dinner. I might as well state the obvious: Kat is going to need a long and serious Paz hug after this dinner. My comment was prompted by thinking what we might expect if roles were reversed, and it was Annie losing her cool (literally!) |
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Post by darlos9d on Jun 15, 2015 14:54:44 GMT
Is it just me or is Anthony's face... longer all of a sudden? It looks somewhat better proportioned now.
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Post by FrozenFT on Jun 15, 2015 15:27:21 GMT
I believe Paz seeing Kat in that form was due to the lingering effect of the etheric distortion coupled with Seraphs' presence and belief in the Angel. Maybe Paz's ability also made her more sensitive than most people. None of that is present at this dinner. I might as well state the obvious: Kat is going to need a long and serious Paz hug after this dinner. My comment was prompted by thinking what we might expect if roles were reversed, and it was Annie losing her cool (literally!) Last chapter a lot of people thought Anthony was deliberately trying to make Annie go full on fire head girl, but since that no longer seems likely, seeing Anthony's reaction to his daughter bursting into flames in anger might be interesting (though I guess he might have seen Surma do it before?) |
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Post by Eversist on Jun 15, 2015 15:33:53 GMT
I don't think Anthony is going to give us the reaction we're looking for. He'll probably continue to shut Kat/Donnie down (but one can hope!).
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Post by nero on Jun 15, 2015 15:42:17 GMT
Does Anthony not trust the Donlans' judgement or does he think Renard is that clever?
I keep thinking that the real Anthony was too busy to respond/go back to the Court himself and this is some grown clone that he is giving instructions to. But then the missing hand wouldn't make sense.
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Post by Señor Goose on Jun 15, 2015 15:44:54 GMT
Hoo goody! Lay it on him Donny and Kat!
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Post by deuswyvern on Jun 15, 2015 16:29:26 GMT
I think that Donny changing the subject is just him choosing his battles. There are no advantages to pressing the issue, Tony does not have to answer his questions so it would just annoy him making him less likely to listen to Donny. Right now the priority is making life easier for Annie, not making Tony confess. Maybe Donny is not handling things right, but since he is the one character to understand Tony the best I will trust him for now.
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Post by zeidoktor on Jun 15, 2015 16:33:33 GMT
I think that Donny changing the subject is just him choosing his battles. There are no advantages to pressing the issue, Tony does not have to answer his questions so it would just annoy him making him less likely to listen to Donny. Right now the priority is making life easier for Annie, not making Tony confess. Maybe Donny is not handling things right, but since he is the one character to understand Tony the best I will trust him for now. On the flip side, Donny could be handling this exactly right. Or, at least, he's handling Tony in exactly the right way to get the information he's after, later if not now. |
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Sadie
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I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
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Post by Sadie on Jun 15, 2015 18:01:38 GMT
I like Tony's deflection there. Not "I don't trust him around my daughter", but a borderline accusing "Are you so trusting of him around your own daughter?" It implies he cares about Annie's safety and that any parent who wouldn't do the same in this case is behaving foolishly, but he's very specifically not saying either. He hasn't verbally expressed any direct concern or attachment to Annie since he's shown up, only performed acts or made statements that could imply such feelings exist.
While it'd be nice to see Tony react to Kat's lashing out, it's more likely going to be Annie who responds the strongest.
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Post by deuswyvern on Jun 15, 2015 18:09:30 GMT
I think that Donny changing the subject is just him choosing his battles. There are no advantages to pressing the issue, Tony does not have to answer his questions so it would just annoy him making him less likely to listen to Donny. Right now the priority is making life easier for Annie, not making Tony confess. Maybe Donny is not handling things right, but since he is the one character to understand Tony the best I will trust him for now. On the flip side, Donny could be handling this exactly right. Or, at least, he's handling Tony in exactly the right way to get the information he's after, later if not now. Yeah, I think there is a good chance he knows what he is doing. Nobody else really understands Tony as far as I can tell. |
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Post by scalesandfins on Jun 15, 2015 18:19:28 GMT
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Post by Refugee on Jun 15, 2015 19:34:28 GMT
I think that Donny changing the subject is just him choosing his battles. There are no advantages to pressing the issue, Tony does not have to answer his questions so it would just annoy him making him less likely to listen to Donny. Right now the priority is making life easier for Annie, not making Tony confess. Maybe Donny is not handling things right, but since he is the one character to understand Tony the best I will trust him for now. Pretty much my take. Except the priority in my mind is to find out what's going on. Something dire has happened to Tony, and it's affecting the way he treats Antimony, as well as everyone else. Kat's objection here is right on the money as well. Good for her. But I do wish, as I have all along, that somebody, anybody, would ask Annie what she thinks is going on, and how she feels, and listen to the answers. Everyone, even Kat, is assuming answers on Annie's behalf, while pushing her to the side. If I were her, I'd be getting kinda hot under the collar now. If you presume to act in my defense, please do me the courtesy of paying attention to what I think should happen. Yes, even if you think I'm being abused. I may not make the right decisions, but the core of abuse, in my mind, is that the abuser acts without regard to what I think is best for me, solely to pursue his own ends. And if you are constantly shushing me, ignoring me, overriding me, in pursuit of what you think is best, or (as in Kat's case) if you are using me as an excuse to attack someone you don't like, you are still edging into abuse, if not to the same extreme. I hate seeing Annie put aside by everyone like this, and I am looking for her to take a stand on her own behalf. I hope the meal is undercooked, because when that happens, it's gonna be pretty hot at the Donlan's table. |
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Post by Chancellor on Jun 15, 2015 20:10:04 GMT
That little ghost of a smile post-Tony Annie occasionally sports when the people around her aren't directly breaking down her existence is killing me, in no small part due to more awfulness following. RefugeeI'd be very pleased as well if all of this talking over her like she's not even there finally drives her flame back out. |
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Post by TBeholder on Jun 15, 2015 20:15:47 GMT
Plus if we are going to see them try and convince Tony that Renard is safe, Kat's instructions to renard to 'do whatever it takes to defend yourself' is a Chekov's gun just waiting to be fired at some point and convince everyone that Renard is dangerous... I don't think Kat will be shy about it in case Renard snaps, but Tony survives, especially given the situation. While there's no hard proof of anything at all, there's enough of circumstantial evidence to reasonably consider him an immediate threat to Annie and maybe herself. Especially the parts where Annie suddenly gone into coma and where she suddenly began to act as if she lost all traces of will and agency, and remained like this for days. It is, indeed, thoroughly fishy - and phosphine is known to be both toxic an pyrogenic. Specifically, she may think that some emergency contingencies are in order. Up to and including a brief eye-to-eye meeting between Tony and a fully charged and operational laser cow, pre-arranged to happen ASAP in case Kat herself suddenly loses consciousness in certain abnormal circumstances. Or if it looks like Annie abducts her. Because let's face it, if Annie gave Renard away without a word, it would be reasonable to conclude her own judgement does not have a say in what she does and start working over her head - oh, wait, Kat seems to already have done exactly this with Renard's "ownership" issue. Does Anthony not trust the Donlans' judgement or does he think Renard is that clever? He seems to think he is "that clever". I keep thinking that the real Anthony was too busy to respond/go back to the Court himself and this is some grown clone that he is giving instructions to. But then, does it have to be Anthony on the other end at all? But then the missing hand wouldn't make sense. On the contrary, this would make a perfect sense. |
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Post by stef1987 on Jun 15, 2015 20:26:54 GMT
I think that was a Hint. Anthony at LEAST suspects that ownership was passed to Kat. I don't see anything that could possibly be taken as a hint that Anthony suspects something |
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west
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Post by west on Jun 15, 2015 20:51:12 GMT
I see Anthony's next line going 1 of 2 ways. 1) He reveals that despite his absence he has been monitoring Annie remotely the entire time. Though this makes his actions seem even more circumspect because in addition to being creepy, it raises question as to why he chose this moment to act. It makes it seem like there's an ulterior motive. And if he has been monitoring her, he should know the positive effects the forest and Renard had on her. My evidence, besides his general desire to have complete control over everything, is that phone call. HE called Jones and introduced the message with Antimony's name. Donny's hypothesis this was done intentionally, signaling some desire to speak with Annie. But....How'd he know she was with Jones? There is the other possibilty that the message was never meant for her, but if it was.... 2)He's going to reveal he HAS been in the Court the entire time, simply in a part of it further removed from the students. This would be the worse option to me. f he was in the Court the entire time, capable of seeing Annie whenever he wanted and simply didn't? Why it might even be the straw that breaks the camels back for the cast. In fact I can see him saying either of the two in that indignant absolutist kind of way as if he is legitimately shocked that anyone thought he WOULDN'T be keeping tabs on Annie. And of course being completely oblivious as to why either of those might anger/disturb other people. I would add (3) He reveals that he's working on incomplete and/or inaccurate information. I take it as a given that he and the headmaster have some shared goal in mind, at the very least because somebody had to approve his job application; and the mix-up with the appointment of mediums gives the headmaster a reason to want to curtail Antimony. He wouldn't have to lie to Anthony about what Annie's been up to to make it sound extremely compromising. |
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Post by arf on Jun 15, 2015 22:47:20 GMT
I like Tony's deflection there. Not "I don't trust him around my daughter", but a borderline accusing "Are you so trusting of him around your own daughter?" It implies he cares about Annie's safety and that any parent who wouldn't do the same in this case is behaving foolishly, but he's very specifically not saying either. He hasn't verbally expressed any direct concern or attachment to Annie since he's shown up, only performed acts or made statements that could imply such feelings exist. While it'd be nice to see Tony react to Kat's lashing out, it's more likely going to be Annie who responds the strongest. Tony is employing a rhetorical tactic called 'framing', which guides and restricts the narrative (in this case deflecting the emphasis from Annie's parent to Kat's). It is far more subtle and powerful than the usual strawmaning that passes for online debate. |
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Post by Refugee on Jun 15, 2015 23:56:41 GMT
Donald's gesture in frame three, of pushing his glasses back up his nose while ducking his head--have we seen him do that elsewhere? Does it say anything about his emotional reaction here?
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Post by Refugee on Jun 16, 2015 0:17:18 GMT
I also note a major difference in how they refer to Rey. Anthony referred to him as "Reynardine," which is the name of a demon. As opposed to "Renard," the fox from ancient fables. Anthony calls him a demon, whereas the rest refer to him as the (very flawed) hero of folk tales. I believe Anthony's using the name Surma gave him. He's not doing so for mythological reasons, but because he regards Reynardine as serious competition for Surma's affections, and knows that "Reynardine" made a serious play for Surma at one time. |
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Post by machival on Jun 16, 2015 0:26:14 GMT
Donald's gesture in frame three, of pushing his glasses back up his nose while ducking his head--have we seen him do that elsewhere? Does it say anything about his emotional reaction here? I don't think we've seen that specific gesture before. Looking at his expression in panel 1 though, I think Donald was getting a little angry and did the glasses thing to re-compose himself. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jun 16, 2015 1:08:44 GMT
I also note a major difference in how they refer to Rey. Anthony referred to him as "Reynardine," which is the name of a demon. As opposed to "Renard," the fox from ancient fables. Anthony calls him a demon, whereas the rest refer to him as the (very flawed) hero of folk tales. I believe Anthony's using the name Surma gave him. He's not doing so for mythological reasons, but because he regards Reynardine as serious competition for Surma's affections, and knows that "Reynardine" made a serious play for Surma at one time. Tony also dislikes informal shortened names, so its the full Reynardine instead of Renard or Rey. Just like he has Annie address him as father instead of dad. Donald instead of Donny. Orthogonal Rectal Insertion instead of .... oh, never mind, ignore this last one. |
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Post by warrl on Jun 16, 2015 2:09:59 GMT
I like Tony's deflection there. Not "I don't trust him around my daughter", but a borderline accusing "Are you so trusting of him around your own daughter?" "Three years ago I would not have trusted him around my daughter - but YOU DID. Now I've seen him and known him for three years, and you haven't. Because of what I've seen from him, I changed my mind. You saw nothing from him; why did you change your mind?" |
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Post by citrakayah on Jun 16, 2015 2:46:46 GMT
I think that Donny changing the subject is just him choosing his battles. There are no advantages to pressing the issue, Tony does not have to answer his questions so it would just annoy him making him less likely to listen to Donny. Right now the priority is making life easier for Annie, not making Tony confess. Maybe Donny is not handling things right, but since he is the one character to understand Tony the best I will trust him for now. Pretty much my take. Except the priority in my mind is to find out what's going on. Something dire has happened to Tony, and it's affecting the way he treats Antimony, as well as everyone else. Personally? I'm leaning towards Tony (rather reasonably, from his point of view) blaming himself for the death of Surma. We do know that he knew something like that would happen if she had a child, but he got her pregnant anyway. And if you viewed yourself as guilty of the murder of your wife by fire elemental, wouldn't you kind of want to avoid your daughter, and your wife's friends? |
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Post by Refugee on Jun 16, 2015 5:06:08 GMT
Pretty much my take. Except the priority in my mind is to find out what's going on. Something dire has happened to Tony, and it's affecting the way he treats Antimony, as well as everyone else. Personally? I'm leaning towards Tony (rather reasonably, from his point of view) blaming himself for the death of Surma. We do know that he knew something like that would happen if she had a child, but he got her pregnant anyway. And if you viewed yourself as guilty of the murder of your wife by fire elemental, wouldn't you kind of want to avoid your daughter, and your wife's friends? Welcome to the Court. And yes, that's a plausible scenario. |
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anisky
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Post by anisky on Jun 16, 2015 6:28:28 GMT
But I do wish, as I have all along, that somebody, anybody, would ask Annie what she thinks is going on, and how she feels, and listen to the answers. Everyone, even Kat, is assuming answers on Annie's behalf, while pushing her to the side. If I were her, I'd be getting kinda hot under the collar now. If you presume to act in my defense, please do me the courtesy of paying attention to what I think should happen. Yes, even if you think I'm being abused. I may not make the right decisions, but the core of abuse, in my mind, is that the abuser acts without regard to what I think is best for me, solely to pursue his own ends. And if you are constantly shushing me, ignoring me, overriding me, in pursuit of what you think is best, or (as in Kat's case) if you are using me as an excuse to attack someone you don't like, you are still edging into abuse, if not to the same extreme. I hate seeing Annie put aside by everyone like this, and I am looking for her to take a stand on her own behalf. I hope the meal is undercooked, because when that happens, it's gonna be pretty hot at the Donlan's table. While I see what you're saying, I think a significant part of the reason that Kat hasn't asked Annie everything she could and is assuming a lot is this:  Asking those questions evoked a distressed and worrying reaction from Annie that strongly suggested that she couldn't handle that discussion. So Kat backed off. I can see why she'd be hesitant to broach the subject with Annie again, and I don't think it has anything to do with not wanting to know Annie's perception of events. And considering why Kat doesn't like Anthony, I definitely don't think she's using Annie as an excuse to attack him. Kat's hatred of Anthony is based entirely on how he and his actions affect Annie. Before he showed up, she hated him (though I'd like to point out that was all her internal thoughts that she can't control) because he had abandoned Annie without any kind of notice, because he didn't contact her at all, even to let her know that he wouldn't come to see her over the holidays (leaving her completely alone and perpetually disappointed all summer when she didn't have to be), and because Annie's automatic but vague defense of him seemed creepy and unhealthy to Kat. Since he arrived, she's hated him more because of the way he has treated Annie. How can Kat be using Annie to attack someone Kat dislikes when concern for Annie is literally the only reason Kat dislikes that person in the first place? All that said, yes, when Kat originally started asking Annie those questions she cut her off before she could answer, because Kat was extremely agitated. Listening from the beginning would have been ideal, yes, but Kat is 14 I think? and extremely agitated so it's understandable. Then once she did wait for Annie's answer, she received the freaky, worrying reaction shown above, and backed off. Once things had calmed down a bit, yes, listening to Annie and getting her opinion would be a good thing, but I think Kat pretty much has gotten that opinion: Antimony thinks that everything her father has done is completely normal, in no way fishy, in no way outside the ordinary way that fathers treat their daughters. Since this belief is clearly false, what is Kat to do? I actually very much disagree with your belief/perception/understanding that "the core of abuse ... is that the abuser acts without regard to what I think is best for me, solely to pursue his own ends". I don't think that's what abuse is at all, actually. If that were abuse, most of us would be abusing each other all of the time. Nobody expects a two-year-old to have any kind of clear idea of what is best for himself, but it is absolutely possible to abuse a two-year-old. Sticking to parent-on-child abuse, since that is the type of abuse we are talking about, parents of young children act without regard to what the child thinks is best for them all the time, and it's not only not abuse, it's the correct behavior. And when you're talking about parent/child interaction, what even constitutes a parent "working solely to pursue his own ends"? There are ways that a parent could use his or her child as a pawn in some larger scheme, I suppose, but that's certainly not the norm in cases of abuse. What you described is exploitation, which is certainly a form of abuse, but far from the most common form, or even just one of the common forms, of parent/child abuse in first-world countries. When a child has been abused, it is very hard for that child to realize it, because we see our own lives and experiences as "normal" until there is strong reason to believe otherwise, and because abusive parents condition their children to believe that their treatment is normal and justified. Making the abused person see that, no, it is not normal and justified, is absolutely necessary in order for that person to heal. Yes, of course it should be done extremely gently, and yes, the abused person needs to be able to talk and be listened to and know that they have been heard, but an abused child is very, very bad at recognizing they have been abused, even once they have grown to be a teenager of even an adult. If Annie can demonstrate that she understands exactly why others are concerned that she is being abused, and that if someone else's father were treating their child exactly the way Anthony treats Annie, she would also not consider that relationship abusive, then we can talk about her beliefs on the matter determining what is okay and what isn't. If she can't do that, then those who care about her must find a way to help her see things clearly. Attachments:
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