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Post by edzepp on May 18, 2015 9:11:08 GMT
I wonder if intentionality matters in the whole Renard situation. Is it possible that Renard is not under Tony's total control because Annie didn't REALLY want to give him control?
And no, saying "okay" while you are completely spacing out doesn't count as "Yes, I want to do this."
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Post by zimmyzims on May 18, 2015 9:16:09 GMT
Annie said she didn't know why Reynard wasn't listening, but Anthony never said he wasn't listening. Maybe I am reading too much into that, but it does seem like Annie may have slipped up there. Hmm... at least this remains a possibility, you can read that into it. If it eventually turns out that the lack of cooperation indeed results from Rey not listening, then Anthony has reason to suspect a treason. |
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quark
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Post by quark on May 18, 2015 9:21:57 GMT
I wonder if intentionality matters in the whole Renard situation. Is it possible that Renard is not under Tony's total control because Annie didn't REALLY want to give him control? And no, saying "okay" while you are completely spacing out doesn't count as "Yes, I want to do this." She probably gave it to him and said something like 'he's your's now. Renard, obey my father's commands - you belong to him now'. Time has passed, at least one night. I think it's Renard being a trickster and showing what he can and will do if he's not cooperative. I mean, Anthony's not known for not doing his homework - he probably even has a contract in writing. And that's going to be a great family dinner. I really really hope we see how the scales fall from Donald's eyes. I don't know what Anja's opinion of him is, but seeing Anthony losing a friend and ally... Also - I am shocked. I still had some hope that this was when Annie gave Renard over to her father, and not that it had already been done. |
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Post by Gulby on May 18, 2015 9:59:36 GMT
Earlier... Annie : "Rey, I forbid you to talk to anybody, even me, whatever the situation is, for as long as I don't suspend the order." Rey : "..."  Or that : Or maybe Rey just is going full Hetty. He, oh yes, he will abide to Anthony's plain orders literally (if he can't help it), he just isn't cooperating to act like he wants. His word is a law, but there's a difference between the letter and the spirit of the law... |
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Post by dliessmgg on May 18, 2015 10:48:01 GMT
My guess is that Annie has handed over the toy, but she hasn't formally handed over ownership of the toy to Mr. Poopyface. Ren-Ren knows that and is just messing around.
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Post by gunnerwf on May 18, 2015 11:07:09 GMT
Remember the early strips, how Renyard didn't really cooperate with Annie, I believe this is happening now.
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Post by msouth on May 18, 2015 11:42:36 GMT
Kat: "Great! We'll be playing 'remember when we went to x' to see if you say you do, then we'll let you know we never went to x, and unmask you as Coyote playing around with Annie's fears and trying to get Reynard back."
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Post by TBeholder on May 18, 2015 12:08:45 GMT
Anthony said Reynard was not cooperating. I believe that means Reynard is still in the plushie which Anthony now possesses. If Reynard was in a different body, then Anthony would say something along the lines that he wasn't responding to instructions. Annie said she didn't know why Reynard wasn't listening, but Anthony never said he wasn't listening. Maybe I am reading too much into that, but it does seem like Annie may have slipped up there. Then again, I may be wishing for some defiance from Annie that just isn't there. Or everyone involved uses words in everyday speech way rather than in some contrived way.  My guess is that Annie has handed over the toy, but she hasn't formally handed over ownership of the toy to Mr. Poopyface. Ren-Ren knows that and is just messing around. Well, most likely. Kat: "Great! We'll be playing 'remember when we went to x' to see if you say you do, then we'll let you know we never went to x, and unmask you as Coyote playing around with Annie's fears and trying to get Reynard back." Why would Kat doubt? This only confirms what she thought of Tony. She hated his guts back before seeing him the first time. Kat is unlikely to suspect a fake, since she never have seen Coyote, IIRC. And probably never had to deal with Mr. Llanwellyn directly, for that matter. She theoretically knows it's possible and even seen Mort, but that's not the same, especially if there's no reason to doubt. She did see Jack early in his worst days, and being so closely acquainted with symptoms of a mental parasite could give her a few thoughts about Anthony's strange behaviour and appearance. But that's it. If anyone would suspect a fake, it's Donald. |
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anisky
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Post by anisky on May 18, 2015 13:06:28 GMT
I wonder if intentionality matters in the whole Renard situation. Is it possible that Renard is not under Tony's total control because Annie didn't REALLY want to give him control? And no, saying "okay" while you are completely spacing out doesn't count as "Yes, I want to do this." This seems fairly likely to me. Generally speaking, a school official has the right to confiscate an unsafe object from a student. If "technical" ownership were enough to control Renard, the Court would never have left him with her in the first place. Supposing that Annie can pass ownership and control of Renard to someone else-- which I'm not supposing in general, just for this hypothetical-- obviously Annie must willingly give Renard to that other person. I guess the question here is: according to the rules of the aether, what constitutes consent? EDIT: Though, thinking about it, that whole chapter with Hetty is a lot more relevant and makes a lot more sense to include in the story if Reynard IS unwillingly under Anthony's control now. ...and thinking about it further, given the nature of the Hetty story, as of now I assign at least a 5% chance that Reynard kills or seriously harms Anthony. |
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Post by ctso74 on May 18, 2015 13:37:54 GMT
Another possibility: Annie told Rey to hop over into another toy Or robot? Maybe, Tony's opinions are piped to /dev/null I can't remember the chapter, but Coyote once said, it wouldn't do any good to try to break Rey's ownership. He said, "Love" kept Reynard at the Court. Perhaps, Hetty's and Rey's "ownerships" are completely different. I'm still hoping for an earlier doll swap. "Cooperate" could have merely been a quirky word choice, inline with Tony's speech patterns. |
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Post by smjjames on May 18, 2015 14:34:20 GMT
Remember the early strips, how Renyard didn't really cooperate with Annie, I believe this is happening now. Yeah, like in my earlier example, he was somewhat defiant at times, though he seemed to cooperate when she told him to get into the box when he did something really bad. Also this one: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=216 Where he just smashes the glass instead of trying to use the lockpicks. Though to be fair, I don't think he knew how to actually use a lockpick at that point. |
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Post by sable0aria on May 18, 2015 14:40:38 GMT
Another possibility: Annie told Rey to hop over into another toy Or robot? Maybe, Tony's opinions are piped to /dev/null I can't remember the chapter, but Coyote once said, it wouldn't do any good to try to break Rey's ownership. He said, "Love" kept Reynard at the Court. Perhaps, Hetty's and Rey's "ownerships" are completely different. I'm still hoping for an earlier doll swap. "Cooperate" could have merely been a quirky word choice, inline with Tony's speech patterns. I agree with this until we get evidence otherwise. I think Rey, and Annie have developed such a strong bond by this point even if neither of them realize it, no matter what happens Rey will never belong to anyone but Annie. At least until he returns to his own body, if he ever does. I'm also happy to imagine Rey doing whatever he is capable of to give Anthony a hard time, even though I don't think he will intentionally try to injury Anthony for Annie's sake. |
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Post by warrl on May 18, 2015 14:41:32 GMT
So, so, so. Reynardine isn't co-operating? Who would have guessed? Or maybe (hopefully) Annie hasn't passed on full control? The second panel does show her looking nervous, but it can also be due to uneasiness over the subject. Anthony instructed Antimony to do something. She did it. It is less perfect than Anthony intended. Obviously (to the two of them) it is Antimony's fault. Antimony, at least, should realize that while Rey's current body is someone else's property, his soul is still his own. (I don't think Anthony is capable of such a realization.) And Rey has never any affection or respect for Anthony. Recent events have given him cause for even less favorable regard. Whereas he has quite a strong affection (precise nature to be determined) for Antimony. I think Rey is bound to follow Anthony's orders... and he's doing so... to the letter.  Except... add deliberate creative misinterpretation. |
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Post by goldenknots on May 18, 2015 15:39:22 GMT
Remember the early strips, how Renyard didn't really cooperate with Annie, I believe this is happening now. This seems reasonable to me. The "control" that Antimony exerted limited his actions but did not compel cooperation, so there's no reason to think that he'd be any more compliant with Anthony. His later cooperation with Antimony was based on his feelings toward her. I'm not at all sanguine about Anthony's chances in that regard. :) |
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Post by nero on May 18, 2015 15:59:54 GMT
So Annie is hiding something from Anthony. She didn't seem so surprised to hear that about Renard.
I picture this dinner starting out calm and civil. Then the Donlans start asking the important questions.
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Post by ih8pkmn on May 18, 2015 16:01:42 GMT
Part of me is wondering if Renard is even under anyone's control anymore, or if he's just pretending for Annie's sake. Let me explain: In Quicksilver, we clearly see that Renard's symbol has changed from earlier incarnations; instead of looking like a true Antimony symbol (just look at the end of chapter pages for an example), it looks like the Mercury symbol with the symbol from the antimony circle placed on the top. And, if I'm looking correctly, this isn't the only time this happens: Look at this page from The Torn Sea. The "horns" on his symbol don't curl. However, when he's around Antimony later in the chapter, they DO curl. We hardly ever seen Rey without Annie around; maybe the whole "I am under your control" thing is an unintentional facade/placebo effect, and Reynardine only thinks he has to obey? "All right," you say, "But why could Annie clearly control him towards the beginning of the comic, and not now?" Well... I honestly don't know. The best thing I can think of is this page. And no, it's not the fact that Annie tells Rey she loves him; it's the fact that Annie's language here (She'd let him go back to the forest) is allowing him to resist Tony at this moment in time, because he thinks going back to the forest is better than being with Carver. But maybe I'm just talking nonsense. Who knows? |
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Post by Sky Schemer on May 18, 2015 16:31:18 GMT
So this is now TWO pages with Anthony being at least marginally polite.
I don't even know what comic this is anymore.
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Post by keef on May 18, 2015 16:44:34 GMT
Another possibility: Annie told Rey to hop over into another toy Or robot? Maybe, Tony's opinions are piped to /dev/null I can't remember the chapter, but Coyote once said, it wouldn't do any good to try to break Rey's ownership. He said, "Love" kept Reynard at the Court. I guess so, because Annie already volunteered to give him his freedom back. Ninja'd by: Part of me is wondering if Renard is even under anyone's control anymore, or if he's just pretending for Annie's sake. Let me explain: -snip- The best thing I can think of is this page. Annie's language here (She'd let him go back to the forest) is allowing him to resist Tony at this moment in time, because he thinks going back to the forest is better than being with Carver. Exactly Tom. Good luck getting a word out of him. |
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quark
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Post by quark on May 18, 2015 16:46:28 GMT
So this is now TWO pages with Anthony being at least marginally polite. I don't even know what comic this is anymore. Well, to Kat. Antimony's still not treated with the least bit of respect. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on May 18, 2015 16:57:09 GMT
Part of me is wondering if Renard is even under anyone's control anymore, or if he's just pretending for Annie's sake. Let me explain: In Quicksilver, we clearly see that Renard's symbol has changed from earlier incarnations; instead of looking like a true Antimony symbol (just look at the end of chapter pages for an example), it looks like the Mercury symbol with the symbol from the antimony circle placed on the top. And, if I'm looking correctly, this isn't the only time this happens: Look at this page from The Torn Sea. The "horns" on his symbol don't curl. However, when he's around Antimony later in the chapter, they DO curl. We hardly ever seen Rey without Annie around; maybe the whole "I am under your control" thing is an unintentional facade/placebo effect, and Reynardine only thinks he has to obey? "All right," you say, "But why could Annie clearly control him towards the beginning of the comic, and not now?" Well... I honestly don't know. The best thing I can think of is this page. And no, it's not the fact that Annie tells Rey she loves him; it's the fact that Annie's language here (She'd let him go back to the forest) is allowing him to resist Tony at this moment in time, because he thinks going back to the forest is better than being with Carver. But maybe I'm just talking nonsense. Who knows? Maybe both Annie and Reynard will be tested in the crucible of Anthony's return. Annie will pass her test when she is able to free herself from her psychological/emotional dependence on her father. Reynard will pass his test when he doesn't harm/kill Anthony even given motive and opportunity. Other characters will probably recognize and applaud Annie's success while few will do the same for Reynard. |
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Post by sherni on May 18, 2015 17:13:54 GMT
Quick, what Eglamore actually said about taking Rey from Annie? "The contract of ownership would be void"? Maybe Annie giving Rey in this situation isn't different at all? He just doesn't want to reveal that yet. Or maybe Rey just is going full Hetty. He, oh yes, he will abide to Anthony's plain orders literally (if he can't help it), he just isn't cooperating to act like he wants. His word is a law, but there's a difference between the letter and the spirit of the law... Heh... Renard leading Anthony around by the nose. Now that I'd pay to see! Maybe we'll get a Renny and Tony Fun Time out of this! Watch the apparently stoic Tony slowly reach exploding point as the wily Renard thwarts his every command! Orders fail! Experiments backfire! Chaos reigns! Lay off on the toxic stuff, though, Reynardine. Don't want to totally orphan Annie. At least not yet... If she really did hand over full control (or tried) to her father, I hope Reynardine can find it in his heart to forgive her. He's been like a parent to her, the father she never got. And they need each other now, more than ever. |
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Post by kelantar on May 18, 2015 17:14:30 GMT
I wonder if he's trying to get information out of Rey. Because as we've seen, even Annie couldn't compel him to speak if he didn't want to.
Alternately, there could just be some sort of rule where if a person is compelled to give ownership to someone else, it doesn't really completely count.
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Post by catsneezes on May 18, 2015 17:57:27 GMT
Anthony being like "we accept," speaking on Annie's behalf, really bothers me. I mean I'm guessing he has her under curfew so he decides where and when she goes anywhere, but still.
Looking forward to the awkward dinner party! Also hoping we see Rey again soon.
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Post by speedwell on May 18, 2015 18:52:53 GMT
Inagine this:
"Kat, Reynard can't talk so he can't object to or talk about this. I formally cede ownership of this toy to you, thus putting Reynardine under your control. Now lend me the toy back and I'll hand it over to my dad, while saying anything he requires me to say, because it doesn't matter what I say when I'm not the owner of the toy."
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madragoran
Full Member
"If he trully does hurt you, I will rend the flesh from his bones on your word"
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Post by madragoran on May 18, 2015 19:11:06 GMT
Inagine this: "Kat, Reynard can't talk so he can't object to or talk about this. I formally cede ownership of this toy to you, thus putting Reynardine under your control. Now lend me the toy back and I'll hand it over to my dad, while saying anything he requires me to say, because it doesn't matter what I say when I'm not the owner of the toy." yes please. |
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Post by Daedalus on May 18, 2015 20:44:01 GMT
This page does give us some hope for Rey's fate. Imagine this: "Kat, Reynard can't talk so he can't object to or talk about this. I formally cede ownership of this toy to you, thus putting Reynardine under your control. Now lend me the toy back and I'll hand it over to my dad, while saying anything he requires me to say, because it doesn't matter what I say when I'm not the owner of the toy." Mmmmmm. That would be nice...there are several solutions if we assume that Annie had decided to secretly rebel against her dad somewhere between this page and this one. But unfortunately I think there has been too much setup for that for it to be that simple  not to mention that Annie and Kat would have acted differently in the last few pages of this most recent chapter if Kat knew of some rebellious action Annie had taken against of her father. With that said, here is my best guess (prepare for long theory-post!): It's totally possible that he is actually under Anthony's control and just being all trickstery to avoid actually following Anthony's orders. But we also know that Anthony is a clever man, and could probably word things specifically enough to avoid this hampering him too much. We've seen places where Antimony's control could not force Rey to do something (namely speak when he didn't want to, implying that the contract controls his body but not his mind). Perhaps that is the issue here, depending on what the orders Anthony tried to give were. As ih8pkmn noted, it is also quite noticeable that when Annie offered to release Rey from their contract back in Chapter 32, her offer did not have any expiration date. Rey chose to stay with Annie because of loyalty and trust, and although it's clearly shown in Chapter 43 that he still must obey her orders, it's possible that her actions here have broken this trust enough for him to choose to leave her - after all, she essentially ordered him to become paralyzed and mute while he awaited whatever his ex-flame's borderline-socipathic ex-husband had planned. It's also possible that the ether recognizes Annie's inner unwillingness to give up Rey, and/or that she wasn't in her right mind when she had agreed. If Anthony's ownership of the doll counts as 'theft', the contract would be void as well. But whatever the reason, let's examine what would happen if Rey were free. Way back in Chapter 9, Jimmy Jims said that he did not want to take Rey from Annie because that would break the contract, and "there's no telling what he would do". We know that if Annie's control over him breaks, her orders binding him would also break - presumably including the prohibition not to kill (implyed strongly in the WoT page about Rey's contract). Tom said long ago that despite regretting the murders he committed "every moment of every day", he would kill again "in defense of a friend". On the same page, it says he was disgusted to be compared to Anthony Carver in particular. We've also seen that he killed Hetty to protect a boy he barely knew, suggesting that he has a strong protective instinct. With all of this foreshadowing information, I suspect he will kill/possess Anthony, or at least try (and the fandom rejoiced!). Not to say this is the best outcome, though... Do you all think this is a reasonable analysis of the facts we have, and did I miss anything relevant? |
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Post by keef on May 18, 2015 22:45:38 GMT
I think there has been too much setup for that for it to be that simple not to mention that Annie and Kat would have acted differently in the last few pages of this most recent chapter if Kat knew of some rebellious action Annie had taken against her father. Yes, she just doesn't seem to have the fight in her at the moment. On the other hand it is an almost unbearable thought she just gave away one of her best friends. Maybe it's something she said to Rey earlier, could be something silly like: "don't do anything I wouldn't do." Well he is a trickster. He may have chosen to act like he was still obeying, but was free to choose otherwise. I accept that is possible, but I don't like it at all. Somehow Annie has to solve this for herself. And look at it from Rey's point of view; if he kills Anthony, Annie will never forgive him. I don't think that is an acceptable outcome for him. |
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Post by Daedalus on May 18, 2015 22:51:42 GMT
I think there has been too much setup for that for it to be that simple not to mention that Annie and Kat would have acted differently in the last few pages of this most recent chapter if Kat knew of some rebellious action Annie had taken against her father. Yes, she just doesn't seem to have the fight in her at the moment. On the other hand it is an almost unbearable thought she just gave away one of her best friends. Maybe it's something she said to Rey earlier, could be something silly like: "don't do anything I wouldn't do." Well he is a trickster. He may have chosen to act like he was still obeying, but was free to choose otherwise. I accept that is possible, but I don't like it at all. Somehow Annie has to solve this for herself. And look at it from Rey's point of view; if he kills Anthony, Annie will never forgive him. I don't think that is an acceptable outcome for him. I don't like it either, actually, but I do think it's at least been heavily foreshadowed. I hope Rey does not do so (as cathartic as it would be short-term) for exactly the reason you identified, haha. His symbol on his head (being in part an Antimony symbol) shows that he's still at least partially controlled by Annie. However, it would also make sense that his (partial?) freedom is represented by that symbol's gradual change. On a random note, changing Rey's forehead symbol to whatever symbol corresponds to Anthony would be a simple and eloquent method to demonstrate Anthony's (future?) control over Rey's actions. |
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Post by keef on May 18, 2015 22:57:20 GMT
On a random note, changing Rey's forehead symbol to whatever symbol corresponds to Anthony would be a simple and eloquent method to demonstrate Anthony's (future?) control over Rey's actions. God I hope Anthony has not to much future in this comic. |
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Post by ninjaraven on May 19, 2015 0:56:48 GMT
Anthony being like "we accept," speaking on Annie's behalf, really bothers me. I mean I'm guessing he has her under curfew so he decides where and when she goes anywhere, but still. Looking forward to the awkward dinner party! Also hoping we see Rey again soon. Keep in mind that Annie and Tony's relationship has essentially been in stasis for the past 3 years, and they both still behave as though Annie is 10 years old. It isn't going to remain this way for too long. Eventually it's going to start chafing Annie (she's a teen already, after all) and she's going to start demanding more freedom. Or conversely, her dad is going to find Annie's co-dependence tiring. Plus, as they interact with each other, both are going to have new revelations about the other: Tony is going to have to concede that Annie is getting too powerful for him to control, and Annie will realize that her father is not some towering giant anymore, but an ordinary man who makes mistakes and doesn't have all the answers (and is maybe even a jerk, as per Zimmy's observation). If I were to put a timeline on this from the last chapter, I'd say a couple weeks at best - no more than a month tops. Also looking forward to the awkward dinner party - maybe Donnie can weasel out of Tony what he's been up to in the past few years? Maybe Tom will terrify the viewer base by having Tony smile. |
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not to mention that Annie and Kat would have acted differently in the last few pages of this most recent chapter if Kat knew of some rebellious action Annie had taken against of her father.