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Post by antiyonder on Apr 23, 2015 19:10:35 GMT
So many commenters and forumites have expressed anger, even hatred, towards Anthony. Rather than evidence, people have looked for excuses to punish him, to take Annie away from him, even to kill him. They have suggested that Coyote, the Court, the Donlans, Eglamore, even Kat and Renard, intervene to ensure, not just Antimony's safety, but that Anthony is served his just desserts. I've avoided making violent comments towards the character since around March 21. However, I think it's reasonable to suggest that at the very least that Donald gives Anthony some much needed negative feedback. It doesn't even have to be scathing or demeaning, but something along the lines of "I know you have Annie's best interests in mind, but the ends don't necessarily justify the means". And I single out Donald, because while I feel that Anthony may care about Annie and even love her, I don't feel that he respects her overall, even before discovery that she cheated or slacked off. Don other the other hand might be the only one who's words might carry some weight with him if they were/are really good friends. Sure, but is it wrong to hope and expect some admittance on Anthony's parts that he could have made better choices in dealing with Annie?
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Post by machival on Apr 23, 2015 19:10:58 GMT
I think Parley and Smitty are needed for back-up with the Forest problem. Kat might be ready for some heroism, but every hero needs a big tough girl and a voice with an internet connection as back-up.
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Post by sherni on Apr 23, 2015 21:51:59 GMT
Two pages ago Kat was holding Rey with both hands. One page ago she had one hand free to wipe her tears. On this page she has both hands free and is seen ducking into her bedroom to get a radio. I am going to hope that she stuffed Renard into a pocket while distracting Annie with tears, and then hid him in her room. Oooh, good catch! Maybe she's decided to make off with him! If the toy he is possessing stolen, he will no longer be under Annie's control. Or anyone else's. I'm hoping right along with you. Whatever Anthony Carver's intentions are, the last thing Reynardine would want is to be under his control. So... let's hope he isn't out of the game yet? That said, I did feel rather let down by this page. Rather anti-climatic compared to the earlier pages. I think many of us really want Annie to snap out of this as soon as possible. This arc has been so painful to read. Not because the writing or artwork is in any way lacking, in fact, it's the very opposite. It's so good that it hurts. And it hits very close to home. But Kat is still here. As Daedalus says, she is the Machine Goddess, Demiurge of Robotkind, Divinity of Metal and the Herald of Greater Realms. She's also a genius. Odds are she's got a plan to bust Annie out of this mess. So, I'll put my faith in her.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Apr 23, 2015 23:19:19 GMT
Two pages ago Kat was holding Rey with both hands. One page ago she had one hand free to wipe her tears. On this page she has both hands free and is seen ducking into her bedroom to get a radio. I am going to hope that she stuffed Renard into a pocket while distracting Annie with tears, and then hid him in her room. Oooh, good catch! Maybe she's decided to make off with him! If the toy he is possessing stolen, he will no longer be under Annie's control. Or anyone else's. I'm hoping right along with you. Whatever Anthony Carver's intentions are, the last thing Reynardine would want is to be under his control. So... let's hope he isn't out of the game yet? I don't mean to quibble, but I think Reynard would willing submit to Tony's control if Reynard thought the sacrifice would set Annie free.
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Post by Corvo on Apr 23, 2015 23:29:21 GMT
Oooh, good catch! Maybe she's decided to make off with him! If the toy he is possessing stolen, he will no longer be under Annie's control. Or anyone else's. I'm hoping right along with you. Whatever Anthony Carver's intentions are, the last thing Reynardine would want is to be under his control. So... let's hope he isn't out of the game yet? I don't mean to quibble, but I think Reynard would willing submit to Tony's control if Reynard thought the sacrifice would set Annie free. I don't see how Rey turning himself to Anthony would help Annie, and I don't understand what you meant by "set Annie free" either. Did I miss something?
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Apr 24, 2015 0:30:13 GMT
I don't mean to quibble, but I think Reynard would willing submit to Tony's control if Reynard thought the sacrifice would set Annie free. I don't see how Rey turning himself to Anthony would help Annie, and I don't understand what you meant by "set Annie free" either. Did I miss something? You didn't miss anything. I am just saying that I think Reynard might sacrifice himself for Annie if he thought it would help. But I don't think any sacrifice on Reynard's part will actually help Annie because Annie has to free herself. I also think Tony is only interested in Reynard to separate Reynard's bad influence from Annie. I could be wrong on all counts, but I really do think that Reynard has shown a capacity for both love and remorse which makes self sacrifice plausible.
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Post by sapientcoffee on Apr 24, 2015 1:17:57 GMT
Have people forgotten that the basic principle of storytelling is, "Chase your protagonists up a tall tree, surround them by wolves, then throw rocks at them"? I think you'd like this quote from Bujold, “...my first application of the rule for finding plots for character-centered novels, which is to ask: 'So what's the worst possible thing I can do to *this* guy?' And then do it.”
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Post by kelantar on Apr 24, 2015 18:44:30 GMT
Somehow, for all of this to be worthwhile, Annie must forgive her Daddy, because she loves him. I strongly disagree. I don't think forgiveness is even applicable in this situation, because for forgiveness to occur, Anthony has to realize that he's wrong and apologize for it, and Annie must realize that he's wrong and come to terms with that. But I also think that if both of those things don't occur, forgiveness can't occur. So, in my opinion, there are four ways this could go: - 1. Neither acknowledge Anthony's wrongdoing. Annie stays meek and submissive, and Anthony remains cold and domineering forever. They are never heard from again and live unhappily ever after.
- 2. Anthony realizes what he's done wrong but Annie remains oblivious. Anthony apologizes to her and has a Huge Important Character Moment™. Annie does not. Anthony continues to have character growth and slowly replaces Annie as the main character.
For the [very sarcastic] reasons alluded to above, I don't think either of those are viable solutions for this comic. - 3. Annie and her father both realize he's been acting like a douchecanoe. Anthony is repentant regarding his behavior and makes every effort to make it up to Annie. Annie is hurt by her father's douchitude, but is mollified by the fact that he acknowledged the situation and is making amends. They gain mutual respect for each other, develop a healthy relationship and live happily ever after.
- 4. Annie realizes her father is treating her poorly, but he remains a bag of dicks. Annie is forced to confront the fact that her father isn't the saint she has made him out to be in her head, and although it is difficult, the support of her friends Kat and Rey(?), get her through it.
These I believe are much more likely, and I think both of them are equally valid ways for the story to progress. Realistically however, I don't see number 3 going off without a hitch, that is to say, that if Annie is ever to reconcile with her father, given his lack of accountability (and friends), I would expect it to be more of a progression from option 4 to 3. I really do think 4 is the most likely thing to happen in the near future, if only because there is really no one (except perhaps Donald) who will really point this out to Anthony besides Annie herself. Whether Anthony atones later is difficult to speculate on at this point. Part of me hopes that he will eventually come around, but given the harshness of what we've seen and the severity of it's effect on Annie, I'm not convinced he ever will. Which brings me back to my original point. Just because she loves her father does not mean she has to forgive him. Many people say you have to forgive or forgive and forget, but I don't agree with that at all. If a person has wronged you, and continues to wrong you (or would continue if you allowed them to), I don't think forgiveness is appropriate. I always bring up a couple of lines from Avatar: The Last Airbender when Katara doesn't kill the man who killed her mother: Aang: You did the right thing. Forgiveness is the first step you have to take to begin healing. Katara: But I didn't forgive him. I'll never forgive him. I think, in the short term, this is the option she is going to have to take. She needs to realize at some point that her father is acting inappropriately and that she must defy him if necessary to grow as a person. And if he is remorseful later on, she can let him back into her life, but sometimes, with a toxic person, it really is best to cut them off. Not necessarily permanently, mind you, but the solution to the immediate problem isn't reconciliation.
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Post by Refugee on Apr 24, 2015 19:05:49 GMT
Somehow, for all of this to be worthwhile, Annie must forgive her Daddy, because she loves him. I strongly disagree. I don't think forgiveness is even applicable in this situation, because for forgiveness to occur, Anthony has to realize that he's wrong and apologize for it, and Annie must realize that he's wrong and come to terms with that. Forgiveness need not depend on the actions of debtor. It need not even be acknowledged by the debtor. That is entirely up to the creditor, who can set any terms she pleases, including no terms at all, unilateral forgiveness. In cases like this, for Annie to forgive her Father only means that she lets go of her anger, and of ideas about justice or even revenge. It does not mean she needs to remain under his hand, to fulfill his commands concerning Renard, or to accept further disrespect or maltreatment. (Note: to me, "maltreatment" does not mean "abuse", although the reverse is certainly true.) It only means that she not allow his past actions to control her feelings.
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quark
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Post by quark on Apr 24, 2015 19:45:15 GMT
I strongly disagree. I don't think forgiveness is even applicable in this situation, because for forgiveness to occur, Anthony has to realize that he's wrong and apologize for it, and Annie must realize that he's wrong and come to terms with that. Forgiveness need not depend on the actions of debtor. It need not even be acknowledged by the debtor. That is entirely up to the creditor, who can set any terms she pleases, including no terms at all, unilateral forgiveness. She could, theoretically, yes. But why should she? (Rhetorical Question. See below:) She's not even angry! That's the whole big problem here - she's forgiving her father already for abandoning her. For abusing her. Taking away what is hers. Forgiveness is the last thing she needs right now - she needs to acknowledge that she should be angry. No matter what her 'crimes' were, she doesn't deserve to be treated like that - least of all by her parent. She has to acknowledge that what's done to her has nothing to do with justice at all. Forgiveness? That can come later. When she has freed herself, emancipated herself, put Anthony in his place (don't take it out of context, I know you like to do that; I meant: Anthony's place in Annie's mind is her father, a being of absolute authority over her. What his place should be is: her father mostly by getting her mother pregnant, who shouldn't have custody over her (or anybody else), and has to face the consequences of his actions) Then she can let go of her anger - then it served it's purpose. Maltreatment and abuse are basically synonyms. I'm not a native speaker, and all translation pages I tried gave me back the same word, so please elaborate where the difference is. Funny you should mention Renard, though. Renard tried to kill Annie to get out of imprisonment - torturous imprisonment. We don't know if Annie ever forgave him for that, but he did never forgive himself. This remorse is the driving force behind his character development - he wants to stay with Annie, protect her, befriend her. On the one hand - yes. On the other: Annie needs to free herself. She controls her feelings to a point where she almost breaks - she doesn't need more control over her feelings. She needs to acknowledge that having feelings is not the end of the world, and feeling abandoned or hurt or disrespected or humiliated isn't wrong, it's justified.
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Post by TheClockworkCoyote on Apr 24, 2015 20:03:36 GMT
Maltreatment and abuse are basically synonyms. I'm not a native speaker, and all translation pages I tried gave me back the same word, so please elaborate where the difference is. ....generally speaking (at least in US English....which is to say, UK English could be completely different. Two nations separated by a common language" and whatnot... ), "maltreatment" could imply unintentional/neglect as well as intentional action; whereas "abuse" tends to simply refer solely to intentional actions. Also, depending on jurisdiction, they may have specific, separate meanings in terms of usage in legal matters. It also (again, US English) could be used to differentiate between levels of action... Saying someone mistreated/maltreated someone else might simply imply they're being a jackass and treating the person badly. Saying someone is abusing someone tends to bring up images involving verbal, emotional, or physical assaults.
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 24, 2015 20:24:10 GMT
I strongly disagree. I don't think forgiveness is even applicable in this situation, because for forgiveness to occur, Anthony has to realize that he's wrong and apologize for it, and Annie must realize that he's wrong and come to terms with that. Forgiveness need not depend on the actions of debtor. It need not even be acknowledged by the debtor. That is entirely up to the creditor, who can set any terms she pleases, including no terms at all, unilateral forgiveness. In cases like this, for Annie to forgive her Father only means that she lets go of her anger, and of ideas about justice or even revenge. It does not mean she needs to remain under his hand, to fulfill his commands concerning Renard, or to accept further disrespect or maltreatment. (Note: to me, "maltreatment" does not mean "abuse", although the reverse is certainly true.) It only means that she not allow his past actions to control her feelings. Fine, but are you honestly saying the narrative doesn't need to call him out on his mistakes unless he's flat out evil (as opposed to well-intentioned and misguided)?
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Post by Refugee on Apr 24, 2015 20:27:44 GMT
In cases like this, for Annie to forgive her Father only means that she lets go of her anger, and of ideas about justice or even revenge. She's not even angry! That's the whole big problem here - she's forgiving her father already She's in shock. What Kat has done is to begin to ease her out of it, to a place where she can begin to operate normally again. She can not forgive Anthony until she can recognize what he is doing to her. Now all she's doing is making excuses for him. See Harvey Keitel in The Bad Lieutenant, if you want to understand where my current understanding of forgiveness sprouted from. It took me a couple of years to begin to understand that. Maltreatment and abuse are basically synonyms. I'm not a native speaker, and all translation pages I tried gave me back the same word, so please elaborate where the difference is. To me, it's a matter of degree. Even at that, I may have chosen the wrong word myself. Abuse is more severe or more long-lasting than mere maltreatment--which, no mistake, can do damage of its own. While I believe Anthony has treated Annie badly in several ways, based on what we've seen so far, it does not descend to abuse. "You always hurt the one you love", goes the old saying. It's unavoidable. Parents hurt their children, and vice versa. Anthony may have done more than most--but we honestly don't know much about Annie's life before Gunnerkrig. On the one hand - yes. On the other: Annie needs to free herself. She controls her feelings to a point where she almost breaks - she doesn't need more control over her feelings. She needs to acknowledge that having feelings is not the end of the world, and feeling abandoned or hurt or disrespected or humiliated isn't wrong, it's justified. Forgiving someone, in my model, is exactly freeing oneself from being controlled by someone else. Beyond that, it may be that Annie must control her emotions, or be consumed by them. Given that Annie is part fire elemental, I do not think it was an accident that the little boy Annie helped had died by an uncontrolled fire.
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Post by Refugee on Apr 24, 2015 20:32:19 GMT
[Are] you honestly saying the narrative doesn't need to call him out on his mistakes whether he turns out to be evil or just well intentioned? Not at all. Tom can do anything to Anthony he wants. But I think Annie's nature is that she forgives people; this is part of what protects her. And I also don't want to see Anthony lynched until we know what the hell is going on. I certainly don't.
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Post by warrl on Apr 24, 2015 23:24:58 GMT
I don't want to see Anthony lynched.
I want to see him stripped of parental authority over Annie due to his abandonment and subsequent mistreatment of her as a parent, dismissed from his position as a teacher due to his unprofessional conduct in the classroom and inappropriate level of demands upon all his students, and escorted from the premises.
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 25, 2015 0:09:50 GMT
[Are] you honestly saying the narrative doesn't need to call him out on his mistakes whether he turns out to be evil or just well intentioned? Not at all. Tom can do anything to Anthony he wants. But I think Annie's nature is that she forgives people; this is part of what protects her. And I also don't want to see Anthony lynched until we know what the hell is going on. I certainly don't. Well forgiveness doesn't mean having to ignore that he erred or lacking a willingness to be critical towards him, does it?
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quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
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Post by quark on Apr 25, 2015 0:13:05 GMT
Maltreatment and abuse are basically synonyms. I'm not a native speaker, and all translation pages I tried gave me back the same word, so please elaborate where the difference is. To me, it's a matter of degree. Even at that, I may have chosen the wrong word myself. Abuse is more severe or more long-lasting than mere maltreatment--which, no mistake, can do damage of its own. While I believe Anthony has treated Annie badly in several ways, based on what we've seen so far, it does not descend to abuse. "You always hurt the one you love", goes the old saying. It's unavoidable. Parents hurt their children, and vice versa. Anthony may have done more than most--but we honestly don't know much about Annie's life before Gunnerkrig. Okay, so it's mostly semantics - you prefer to use a word that is not as emotionally loaded, which is fine with me. Although I'm wondering why; I'm not going to cite the billion users that more or less proved that Anthony's treatment of his daughter falls under most legal definitions of abuse, and not just 'hurt feelings that will always happen in a parent-child-relationship'. It is pretty severe what he's doing, and it really doesn't matter if he does it out of love or out of duty or out of hate. I don't think so. Surma was part fire elemental, too, and she didn't need to control her feelings.
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Post by kelantar on Apr 27, 2015 13:35:14 GMT
Forgiveness need not depend on the actions of debtor. It need not even be acknowledged by the debtor. That is entirely up to the creditor, who can set any terms she pleases, including no terms at all, unilateral forgiveness. I kind of mixed up the order in which I was trying to say things. When I said this: I don't think forgiveness is even applicable in this situation, because for forgiveness to occur, Anthony has to realize that he's wrong and apologize for it, and Annie must realize that he's wrong and come to terms with that. I was trying to make two separate statements and I kinda got them tangled. First, I was trying to say that forgiveness isn't a thing that can happen here (at least not yet), because Annie has not acknowledged or realized that her father is wrong. So in her mind, there's nothing to forgive. The second part was that I don't think that Anthony should be forgiven unless he both acknowledges he is wrong and makes some effort to atone for it. That has more to do with my personal attitude toward forgiveness, which I think is an overused trope in society. People tell you to "forgive and forget," but those who forget history are doomed to repeat it (as the phrase goes), and I don't think forgiveness should be that simple. I've seen people forgive those who have wronged them repeatedly, and the same person has continued to wrong them. So when you say this, I think the problem is that she has no anger or desire for justice, because she already feels that he is justified. And now that I see where you're coming from with your view on forgiveness I agree that (once she realizes he's a dickbag) she should forgive him. But where you might say that she should reconcile with him, I say that, if he is not repentant, upon forgiving him she should cut all ties with him. To me, it's a matter of degree. Even at that, I may have chosen the wrong word myself. Abuse is more severe or more long-lasting than mere maltreatment--which, no mistake, can do damage of its own. While I believe Anthony has treated Annie badly in several ways, based on what we've seen so far, it does not descend to abuse. "You always hurt the one you love", goes the old saying. It's unavoidable. Parents hurt their children, and vice versa. Anthony may have done more than most--but we honestly don't know much about Annie's life before Gunnerkrig. I think the three years is a key point. Three years abandonment with no warning by itself is something I would qualify as emotionally abusive, but combined with the fact that he has said nothing comforting or familial to her (in fact, when she inquired about his freakin' HAND BEING GONE, he shut her down), but also the fact that after 3 years of not seeing him she has completely lost her personality in a matter of hours shows that their relationship is not healthy. Here's a website which talks about emotional abuse, how neglect can be a huge part of that, and the effects it has on the child. Annie seems to show all three of the "effects" listed there. Keep in mind that being abusive doesn't mean that he means her harm or that there is any malice involved, but I think most people by now agree that he is unfit to be a parent.
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