Alchemy

[owl]

Right. Robot just says "A man came".

[Myrani]

Some blah blah blah, seeing as I know as much about alchemy as I do about building Tesla coils. Which is to say not much, though there's an interest.

So, drawing from some various things, correlation?



Noting that I've seen it mentioned that adding wings to the symbol for mercury implies a higher power/masculinity. Then again, is it actually perhaps bismuth with some lines for embellishment underneath? These things, I do not know. And with the forest's floaty sky thing, noting the mention of Reynardine's cousin in there somewhere, I was wondering if that one part was an eye, only without the strikethrough as we've been accustomed to seeing.

Also, after looking at page 121, something interesting I found:



Of course, I could be just blowing a lot of hot air and being all unwittingly redundant, but it's still fun to search around for things.

[UbiquitousDragon]

I was trying to find out more info about Bismuth, as it seems to be the symbol for the actual Gunnerkrigg Court in the comic, so went to the OED (Oxford English Dictionary) Online (through my universty's subscription) and typed it in, and it was just factual, saying is was an alchemical element closely related to antimony, which was vaguely interesting. Then I decided to type in 'Surma' here's what came up:

surma, soorma A black powder consisting of sulphide of antimony or of lead, used by Indian women for staining the eyebrows and eyelids.

What struck me was the both the antimony and the lead. The former is obvious, but lead was the symbol on Eglamore's dragon slayer outfit, plus the knife seen in Chapter 7 (here) 'James, with love from Surma' ... well I have wondered for awhile about Annie's mum and Mr. E. But I guess anything more probably belong in Wild Speculation!

[Mezzaphor]

In [269] we see three symbols on the banner in the greeting hall. No new symbols, just the double-circle (the same one that appears on the arch over the entrance facing the woods), bismuth/salt, and gold/sun.

EDIT:

brice said:

On one GC page there is part of an alchemical table or diagram:

www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=152

It shows Bismuth and an alternate symbol for Antimony inside the circle.

www.chemsoc.org/viselements/pages/alchemist/alc_antimony.html

How many other times have wee seen Bismuth directly associated with Antimony?

There is also Gold, Lead, and Mercury arranged in a column. The arrangement could imply Lead (Eglamore) is keeping Mercury (Reynardine) away from Gold. Mercury is usually intermediate between Lead and Gold.

EDIT: hold on!! When you take the circle-with-horns for bismuth and add it to the circle-and-cross for antimony you get the normal symbol for mercury. I'm sure that's not coincidental. ... or am I? Anyhow, it's another nice puzzle piece ...maybe?

There's also a similar diagram on pages 111 and 112.
There's a large, 8-pointed star, ringed by symbols (the alternate antimony symbol and a five-pointed star are clearly visible, and there's a partly visible symbol that could be lead). All enclosed by a double circle. Hmmm...

[starburst98]

another reason bismuth is used so much could be that it looks absolutely incredible

[UbiquitousDragon]

With the symbolism-packed new/second treatise page I've also been pondering the first one at the end of Chapter 7. I was actually searching for more info about the sun and moon but stumbled across this page: The Secret Language of Symbols which covers the 6 pointed star seen in the first treatise. As a balance between both fire and water (Annie and Kat), this continued and made more obvious, I think, in the second treatise where our two heroines' arms are linked.

Reynardine and Coyote also appear to be having associations with fire (sun) and water (moon) in the second treatise, where Rey is water, and so with the Court and Kat, and Coyote fire, the forest and Annie.

Mercury, which has been associated with Rey, is a transitional element (from Wikipedia) which give the impression to me that he can traverse both the Court and the Wood--and it is in the middle of the page, almost as if he is the linch-pin ...

From the second treatise the moon is, as has been said, associated with GC and the sun with GW, which is interesting because the alchemical symbol for gold has appeared several times in the Court, here for example below bismuth, and what I think may be the symbol for fat courtesy of Wikipedia. Though I've no idea what any of that means Or, having found a new alchemy site, "sal alcali" linky, or other various forms of salt/alkali.

Edited for spelling, grammar and general coherence.

[Aspen d'Grey]

Ubiquitous;

Good find, there, one thing that you sort of mentioned is how Rey is 'water', which makes sense, since that element will flow and change to fit its surroundings. It's interesting that he's contrasted with Coyote as fire0 while fire is quick and tricky (which fits Coyote very well) I had sort of hoped we'd get an air in here somewhere, or an earth. Coyote -could- be considered 'earth' as well, because he's so closely linked with it in the forest, and then Rey could be air- the symbolic white fur, his 'lightning form' (although thats more of a fire thing?) and his shape shifting fit air ok-ish.

[UbiquitousDragon]

Ahh, I like that Hmm, well I think from the TicTocs the Court is more associated with Air so stretching it to Rey mightn't be so hard (even though he was evidently a Forest creature before, with Coyote asking him to return), but like I said his association with mercury allows him to be transitional. Which I think could be a good way of getting around his 'lightning form', 'cause before the summer he was less of a GC personage, but more of a chaotic element. It's as if Annie's tamed him, or at least won his loyalty. (Though that's less alchemical speculation, more general speculation )

[Aspen d'Grey]

Eh, well, but the Tic-Tocs aren't really what one would call 'developped' characters, they just exist and are part of the court, but there are not individual ones that we single out and identify. (Yet)

[spritznar]

aspengrey said:

Ubiquitous;

Good find, there, one thing that you sort of mentioned is how Rey is 'water', which makes sense, since that element will flow and change to fit its surroundings. It's interesting that he's contrasted with Coyote as fire0 while fire is quick and tricky (which fits Coyote very well) I had sort of hoped we'd get an air in here somewhere, or an earth. Coyote -could- be considered 'earth' as well, because he's so closely linked with it in the forest, and then Rey could be air- the symbolic white fur, his 'lightning form' (although thats more of a fire thing?) and his shape shifting fit air ok-ish.

ysengrin seems very earthy to me visually, he's all browns and greens, not to mention tree limbs. although his temperament doesn't seem to fit (unless we're talking about volcanoes and fault lines)

[starburst98]

he is stubborn to a fault, that sounds earthish to me.

[King Mir]

Does any one have any information on the third GC symbol, the two paired circles that appears in many pages along with the bismuth symbol and sun symbol? For example on the banner here and Above the door here.

[Jiminiminy]

I've seen that used as a secondary symbol for bismuth, although not very commonly.

[pepoluan]

Aug 22, 2009 4:28:16 GMT King Mir said:

Does any one have any information on the third GC symbol, the two paired circles that appears in many pages along with the bismuth symbol and sun symbol? For example on the banner here and Above the door here.

It might be the sign for "melting or digesting". See:

www.purplehell.com/riddletools/alchemy.htm

[Mezzaphor]

In light of Jones' explanation that the bismuth symbol serves as "a reminder that the Court was founded on a union between technological and etheric design", I think the banner in the meeting hall is an expanded version of the same theme: A symbol for science and a symbol for the etheric, and between them, bismuth, the symbol of union.

And since the double-circle is over the Court's forest-facing entrance, I assume that it's the symbol for science in this context.

[Mylian]

Looking solely into alchemy, one might miss the modern Periodic Table, on which the elements of antimony and bismuth share a column, and thus also may share physical properties.

Just saying, is all.

[lilwhytwch]

Jan 29, 2007 3:24:42 GMT Aspen d'Grey said:

mrw said:

Perhaps there are some clues here?
www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=121

There's a lot more than just alchemy there. You also have Sun & Moon symbols, with the sun & moon quartered against an 8 pointed star and their occult symbols. The intertwining wings are interesting, and could mean several things that I want to look into a bit more before I post about them. The position Kat & Annie are holding is a spell casting position (with three fingers of the left hand touching the lower lip), with the moon over Kat & the sun over Antimony, although whether that actually means something is debatable.

There are several triangles in the image, which is an important symbol in occult magic & alchemy. (A pyramid is the strongest simple shape in nature) There are three triangle, one pointing upwards, one pointing down, with a larger one in the middle. Underneath is a Star of David, although I get the impression that this is used more because it combines the other two triangles. There is a fourth downward pointing triangle in the middle of the image, but I'm pretty sure it's supposed to relate to the Mercury symbol there. Alchemy is the combination of both 'mystic' and 'natural philosophy', so the 6-pointed star is it's symbol, with an upwards pointing triangle referring to the Heavens, and a downward pointing triangle used to represent Earth.

Next to Annie is a bonfire, while next to Kat is a river. These correspond with the astrological symbols above them- the moon representing darkness, coolness, and water, while the sun represents life, light, and fire. They both have 'triggers' in their right hand that I haven't figured out the meaning to yet.

Ive also think their right hands are forming sign language. Kat is signing the letter X while annie is signing the letter F. I dont know if thats what its ment to be but that is how youd hold your hand to sign those letters except for one thing, Kats thumb should be tucked in to correctly sign the letter X. I dont know if that means anything or not.

[somnium]

Does any one have any information on the third GC symbol, the two paired circles that appears in many pages along with the bismuth symbol and sun symbol? For example on the banner here and Above the door here.

That symbol has been used as an alchemical symbol for hydrogen, a planetary symbol for the sun and an elemental symbol for air.

This symbol.

Ive also think their right hands are forming sign language. Kat is signing the letter X while annie is signing the letter F. I dont know if thats what its ment to be but that is how youd hold your hand to sign those letters except for one thing, Kats thumb should be tucked in to correctly sign the letter X. I dont know if that means anything or not.

I'm definitely curious about that. I believe they may be something like mudras (which are the most relevant hand signs I can think of at the moment). Annie's gesture looks sort of like the vitarka mudra when it is observed from that angle.

[tds]

Aug 22, 2009 4:28:16 GMT King Mir said:

Does any one have any information on the third GC symbol, the two paired circles that appears in many pages along with the bismuth symbol and sun symbol? For example on the banner here and Above the door here.

As mentioned before it has several meanings. It can also be used to represent gold.

Gold means perfection, and I believe I recall something Coyote said about The Court being Mankind's attempt to become God.

[Jiminiminy]

Is that the symbol everyone was talking about? I thought we were discussing the one that looks like a figure-eight. Yeah, that represents the Sun, which holds dominion over Gold, so the symbols are generally used interchangeably. Gold and the Sun supposedly ruled over all other elements, and using it to represent mankind wouldn't be much of a stretch.

[Mezzaphor]

Aug 23, 2009 21:37:47 GMT Jiminiminy said:

Is that the symbol everyone was talking about? I thought we were discussing the one that looks like a figure-eight.

Same here. I can only assume that the figure-eight what Pepoluan was talking about as well.

[tds]

Hmmm... you're right, I was confused because the description of the location in the picture fit the symbol for gold as well, and I saw that first in both cases (not even noticing the figure eight above the door).

[King Mir]

Yeah I meant the figure eight one.

[pepoluan]

If the figure-of-8 symbol indeed means "melting / digesting", then that would go in line with what Mezzaphor posted:

Aug 22, 2009 14:35:02 GMT Mezzaphor said:

In light of Jones' explanation that the bismuth symbol serves as "a reminder that the Court was founded on a union between technological and etheric design", I think the banner in the meeting hall is an expanded version of the same theme: A symbol for science and a symbol for the etheric, and between them, bismuth, the symbol of union.

And since the double-circle is over the Court's forest-facing entrance, I assume that it's the symbol for science in this context.

More likely, it might mean "Enter here to see a mix of Science and Etheric"

Or: "Enter here to see Etheric digested into something explainable by Science"

[somnium]

As mentioned before it has several meanings. It can also be used to represent gold.

Yeah I probably should have mentioned that too, however...

The alchemical symbols for gold are more than prevalent and the symbols used for other elements are not. I also tend to refer to this symbol when I think of gold. Plus the planetary association of the sun and gold is alchemical in nature (at least as far as that symbol goes).

Anyway I was using Dalton's symbols as an example, even though he worked to disprove alchemy he copied the practice in this instance. And Gunnerkrigg, in a similar way is a union of science and the etheric - alchemy and chemistry.

My logic is probably totally flawed.

Is that the symbol everyone was talking about? I thought we were discussing the one that looks like a figure-eight.

I wasn't really sure either... 'Two paired circles' made me think the same thing but then the way the other symbol was depicted in those images was a circle within a circle (rather than a dot) so...

I picked the one I did because it's more prominent in the second link and shown twice in the first. Even though those may have been the only/first found images with the 'figure eight' symbol.


EDIT: It should have occurred to me sooner, but the 'figure eight' symbol may be a/the vesica piscis or based on that.

Which perfectly ties in with the whole "Enter here to see a mix of Science and Etheric" idea.

[Zindaras]

So I was originally over on the "Cool things I only noticed on reread" thread which led me to finally do all the messing about learning about the alchemical symbols that I hadn't quite finished doing before. Although wise and potentially beardy types had apparently identified many of the more obscure symbols even back in the olden days of 2007, the reread thread seemed to point out that modern scholars had forgotten much of this knowledge and were asking many of the same questions. I endeavored to aid in this quest for information by pinning down a meaning for the "dot within a circle symbol" which I remembered as Sol, finding through a bit of Wikipediaing that it could also mean Gold.

This gives an interesting interpretation to the Second Treatise, where the central symbols are Fire on the court side, Water on the Forest side, (Opposite of how they were in the First Treatise, notably) with Mercury, symbolizing the "fluid connection between the high and the low", which is apparently (by this interpretation) symbolizing a connection between the Bismuth or "Court-related" symbol and the "Gold" or "Sun" symbol. It's very interesting to me that Bismuth is on the "High" side of this relationship, as to my amateur knowledge Gold was considered to be pretty much the most awesome in Alchemy, wanting to turn base metals into gold etc. Wikipedia sleuthing has failed to turn up much in terms of relating gold to bismuth, so perhaps we can assume that in the world of Gunnerkrigg Court, "The Court" or whatever sort of Court-related thing Bismuth represents is considered to be the "High" one when compared to the "Low" represented by Gold or Sol or (more likely) some more abstract concept that is as yet unknown. Edit: Okay it's getting pretty early in the morning over here, but I think I'm finally onto something. According to the interpretation of the Sun symbol as an astrological one, the symbol represents "a circle of divine spirit surrounding a seed of potential." Obviously there are many layers of meaning inherent in this symbol, but If I'm not at least on the right track here, I'll eat my hat! Although as Myrani pointed out the Court Symbol includes a central Bismuth, this version of it (unlike the more common ones) has, itself, a central dot or "seed". So the Court, grown from the Seed Bismuth, may still retain the image of it, or indeed may itself eventually produce (or have produced) a Seed? Layers within layers...

Also, I have to say that after finding out (as many others have) the relationship between bismuth/antimony and their ancient uses, I'm incredibly impressed. Tom, if you feel something on your right palm right now it is you getting a HIGH FIVE. Quote from the Wikipedia article on Antimony: "Antimony's sulfide compound, antimony (III) trisulfide, was recognized in antiquity... Pastes of this compound... have been used as eye cosmetics in the Middle East and farther afield; in this use, it is called kohl. It was used to darken the brows and lashes, or to draw a line around the perimeter of the eye." Obviously we don't know the full significance behind Annie's eye makeup (and its sometime absence), but I for one have to be pretty impressed with Tom for going to such lengths to incorporate his characters and plot elements with the references and symbolism that he associates them with. I mean, seriously! The very highest of Fives to you, sir.

Also, I'm really impressed with all the fans here for being attentive enough to notice all these amazing details and good enough sports to share them with others, it's a great example of one of the few times that something good can come out of interacting with people on the Internet.

That said, allow me to mine your amazing brains for the knowledge I lack: has anybody managed to decipher any meanings for the symbol above Kat's head in the Second Treatise (and on her pocket in the Third)?

[Jiminiminy]

Two things to say (Kind of insignificant in comparison to that). For one thing, the two symbols that you see used as Water and Earth aren't solely used in those sense. For one, which I only remember from reading the Da Vinci Code recently, is that the upright triangle represents men, and the inverted one represents women. These would be used just as frequently, in the same era as alchemists operated during their later days. What I'm saying is that the base symbols of Fire, Water, Earth and Air are way too basic to draw assumptions from accurately. The triangle is too simple of a representation, I'm sure that there are countless uses of the two across the world and across time. Here, for example, instead of Water being the inverted triangle, it is the representation of Earth, which would actually make more sense based on my own inferences.

Second, the symbol you mention last, which I call the 'shattered e', has no meaning that I know of, though believe me, I tried finding it. The way that it's staggered reminds me of Sulphur, and how it has a crimped portion as well, although Magnesium shares that characteristic as well. I don't know, if you want to look, here's the three sites that I use for this purpose: One, Two, and Three.

[King Mir]

The symbol above Kat, and on her heart seems to be a symbol Tom made up to associate with Kat.

[coyotagoat]

Ah, this would explain why Tom didnt answe rwhen I asked about this in the Questions thread . I like the symbol, though.

[paracelsus]

While I don't have as much alchemic knowledge as some of the other members here, I may be able to offer some food for thought.

Paracelsus referred to three elements as the "Tria Prima" translating roughly into "Three Chiefs". These were:

Murcury- Fluidity/transformative agent.
Sulphur- Combustibility.
Salt(Bismuth possibly?)- Solidifying agent.

If the OP is correct that the Bismuth symbol may also be used for salt, then it makes sense for the Court to have it everywhere, because it represents solidity. Something you can touch, taste, feel, and understand. Basically, science.

The mystery for me is why Eglamore is represented by Lead. It could stand for strength, I suppose, but in everything I've read(though it has been a while since I read it) Lead was a base metal and rather undesirable. Something that needed to be changed/cleansed/saved and turned into gold.

Also, the symbol above the door on the outside and inside of the Donlan's home in the Court is gold. I remember seeing that symbol for gold before. Most often, the symbol for gold contains some sort of a circle, which, I think, also represents perfection(haven't done any research in that area, just a hunch).