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Post by hp on Jan 23, 2015 19:14:27 GMT
I mean... That kind of "Batman Gambit" where the heroes think they succeeded in stopping the antagonist plan, but then figure out his actual plan counted on that
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Post by feraldog on Jan 23, 2015 19:35:12 GMT
I mean... That kind of "Batman Gambit" where the heroes think they succeeded in stopping the antagonist plan, but then figure out his actual plan counted on that You're thinking of the Xanatos Gambit. |
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Post by Elysium on Jan 23, 2015 20:00:45 GMT
In the past Tom said that Annie has looked at Kat through the blinker stone and and only saw a non-etheric person. That may have changed, particularly after Torn Sea, but those answers implied that Coyote probably would just see a normal human. I also suspect that Annie would quickly see/notice if Kat started to display etheric colors. And she would tell Kat if she saw a change. Perhaps Coyote did sense a perturbation in the force when Kat briefly changed into her angelic form...no wait wrong series. |
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Post by mordekai on Jan 23, 2015 21:32:15 GMT
"Dear"?!...Just how close has Annie become with the ancient trickster god? She doesn't usually call "dear" anybody, not even Kat or Renart!
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Post by ryrmyrbyr on Jan 23, 2015 21:32:44 GMT
Coyote is a level 2 character while everyone else is a level 1 character or a level 0 character. Him expressing interest in Kat is not a coincidence.
It's strange that Annie would call someone "dear". That sounds like a Jenny thing to do.
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Post by Fishy on Jan 23, 2015 21:44:30 GMT
I must admit, I'd love to see Coyote's interactions with a few of the students. It's a shame how isolated these groups are from one another. Though I do agree that I don't think his interest in Kat is simply out of curiosity.
I wonder if Annie's still connected to her body this time. It's been sorta back and forth ever since the fairies yanked her out, I wonder if Coyote has seen that little trick yet.
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Post by Lightice on Jan 23, 2015 21:50:16 GMT
"Dear"?!...Just how close has Annie become with the ancient trickster god? She doesn't usually call "dear" anybody, not even Kat or Renart! Pretty sure it's slightly sarcastic. She's returning Coyote's overly familiar ways right back at him. On the other hand, I think that she's being pretty straightforward for why Kat can't come. So far Annie hasn't had many glimpses to Coyote's darker side, and I doubt that she thinks that he'd pose a danger to Kat, at least as far as she's around. |
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Jan 23, 2015 22:35:57 GMT
"Dear"?!...Just how close has Annie become with the ancient trickster god? She doesn't usually call "dear" anybody, not even Kat or Renard! No, no, no, you fools have it all wrong!! As always, you silly humans! She knows I give better piggyback rides than poor, boring Ysengrin, and she's being nice so that I give her another. Obviously. |
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Post by eightyfour on Jan 23, 2015 22:39:35 GMT
I think Annie has indeed become quite close to him. That, however, includes knowing him well enough to be aware of how far she can trust him. By the way, Annie already called Kat "dearest" all the way back in S1, in a similar playful context. |
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Post by hp on Jan 23, 2015 23:09:56 GMT
I mean... That kind of "Batman Gambit" where the heroes think they succeeded in stopping the antagonist plan, but then figure out his actual plan counted on that You're thinking of the Xanatos Gambit. I don`t think so... IIRC, the Xanatos is when any outcome of the plan turns out to be a win for the planner. The Batman Gambit, on the other hand, is when the planner is able to predict exactly how his/her "pawns" will react... Even that they will eventually figure the planner`s alleged "intentions" and act to disrupt them. I guess that`s what Tv Tropes calls the " Kansas City Shuffle" |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jan 24, 2015 0:02:55 GMT
I think Annie has indeed become quite close to him. That, however, includes knowing him well enough to be aware of how far she can trust him. By the way, Annie already called Kat "dearest" all the way back in S1, in a similar playful context. And on Page 944, in a friendly context. |
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Post by todd on Jan 24, 2015 0:07:43 GMT
You're thinking of the Xanatos Gambit. I don`t think so... IIRC, the Xanatos is when any outcome of the plan turns out to be a win for the planner. [/quote] The Seraphs' scheme in "The Torn Sea" definitely fitted the description of a "Xanatos Gambit" in its misdirection element; the real goal was, not to make the Ship flesh so that it could seduce Lindsey, but to rekindle Kat's enthusiasm for the robot project. (In much the same way that in "Gargoyles", Xanatos's schemes that seemed to be about killing or capturing the gargoyles often turned out to have other purposes - such as testing a new weapon or getting his girl-friend - and later, wife - an early parole from prison.) |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jan 24, 2015 0:23:56 GMT
What if Coyote possessed Annie’s body and went waltzing into the Court to pay Kat visit? "Oh Annie, what a strange smile you have!"
- I doubt Annie would willing submit, and I don't think Coyote would throw away the relationship he's been building with her. Still interesting to consider.
- Annie is the forest medium, so possessing her might not violate his promise to the Court. And if he doesn't get caught in the Court, then visiting doesn't really violated his promise.
- I think Kat would notice that something is wrong very quickly, unless Coyote also has access to Annie's memories to help make his acting more realistic.
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Post by Ophel on Jan 24, 2015 4:58:38 GMT
Why is this not already on the ISAO board? XD Well now, if that's requested... |
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Post by eightyfour on Jan 24, 2015 10:44:21 GMT
What if Coyote possessed Annie’s body and went waltzing into the Court to pay Kat visit? ... - Annie is the forest medium, so possessing her might not violate his promise to the Court. And if he doesn't get caught in the Court, then visiting doesn't really violated his promise. I don't think that's how it works. But let's just for argument's sake look at the exact wording: He promised Annie that " no harm will come to you". One could now argue about the definition of what exactly "harm" is. For example, if he were to take over a person's body just to move around with it a bit, and then leave without causing any damaging long term effect, did he really "harm" that person?  Similarly, according to Anja, Coyote promised to " leave everyone on the Court side alone". "Leaving alone" implies "not making contact" at all. Would he be "making contact" if he just were to stroll about the Court a bit and watch people from a distance? Nah, as I said, I don't think it works this way. As far as I'm concerned, those two promises are paramount. Coyote cannot even cross the bridge without an express invitation, and Annie is not only off-limits for anything that goes beyond a harmless prank when she's in the forest, Coyote would even have to actively protect her if there was immediate danger from another source. Yes, I'm aware of that little incident at the end of The Great Secret, but I still think Coyote would've stepped in at the last moment, if Annie hadn't called Eggers (Or rather, he knew there was nothing to worry about since he had orchestrated the whole thing in the first place. He's sooo smart, after all!) |
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Post by TBeholder on Jan 24, 2015 10:47:14 GMT
They don't want Kat to meet Coyote? What sensible people. Then again, they may just worry about Kat being caught in their particular mess - with Renard and all.
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Post by arf on Jan 24, 2015 11:03:43 GMT
"Dear"?!...Just how close has Annie become with the ancient trickster god? She doesn't usually call "dear" anybody, not even Kat or Renart! In the UK, 'dear' may be used as a casual expression of familiarity but doesn't necessarily imply intimacy. Annie does say 'Scoot Scoot m'dear' when she wants Kat to make room for her on the couch in Faraway Morning. Given her experiences of the night before, Kat might have been a bit leery if she interpreted the phrase as being anything more than 'make some room there for another sleeping body' |
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Post by todd on Jan 24, 2015 11:37:39 GMT
What if Coyote possessed Annie’s body and went waltzing into the Court to pay Kat visit? Moot point; he gave that ability away to Renard. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jan 24, 2015 12:08:23 GMT
What if Coyote possessed Annie’s body and went waltzing into the Court to pay Kat visit? Moot point; he gave that ability away to Renard. Good point! I forgot that Coyote doesn't grant an ability, he gives it away. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 24, 2015 19:06:41 GMT
What if Coyote possessed Annie’s body and went waltzing into the Court to pay Kat visit? Moot point; he gave that ability away to Renard. However, he could totally shapeshifter into her doppelgänger and go visit Kat that way. Remember, he's a pretty clever trickster god. I don't think that he can enter the Court without permission, though, and as clear as he may be, he is not subtle. So he knows he couldn't pretend to be her for long. |
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Post by csj on Jan 24, 2015 21:17:48 GMT
IF worship from the robots is capable of turning Kat into a deity of some kind - thus giving her a presence in the ether, then Coyote/Kat could well see something different to her boring old form.
Of course, Kat may need to be in the ether herself for that to work, and barring Zimmingham shenanigans, that seems hard to accomplish.
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Post by keef on Jan 24, 2015 22:16:47 GMT
IF worship from the robots is capable of turning Kat into a deity of some kind - thus giving her a presence in the ether, then Coyote/Kat could well see something different to her boring old form. Of course, Kat may need to be in the ether herself for that to work, and barring Zimmingham shenanigans, that seems hard to accomplish. Coyote seems to be able to see people for what they really are.  |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jan 25, 2015 0:58:34 GMT
IF worship from the robots is capable of turning Kat into a deity of some kind - thus giving her a presence in the ether, then Coyote/Kat could well see something different to her boring old form. Of course, Kat may need to be in the ether herself for that to work, and barring Zimmingham shenanigans, that seems hard to accomplish. I still want to hold to the theory that Kat is the inspiration for the Mecha-Angel, not the actual Mecha-Angel. From that perspective, Kat is like the coyote that the man saw in the desert. I admit that Paz seeing the Mecha-Angel at the end of The Torn Sea is a point against that theory. I still like it because of the tie in with Coyote's great secret. But if that theory is true, then Kat herself may never appear to have a special presence in the ether. |
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Post by hp on Jan 25, 2015 3:05:28 GMT
three thoughts:
1) But how can Kat not have a presence in the ether? I wonder if she`s not what it seems at first sight. Maybe an advanced robot, some form of clone or another kind of being. Maybe she`s an incarnation of the seed Bismuth itself, or have some of it in her (just as Annie is some diluted form of fire elemental). LAUGHING ON LINE (edit: "laughing on line"? What the heck)
Jones also can`t get in touch with the ether and she seems to be an artificial being.
Kat could read Diego`s code after all, something the robots said was impossible for humans. She also could see beyond the "smoke and mirrors" when they were in the RotD.
2) Zimmy`s vision of Kat does not seem to be an etheric form like "worm-coyote", "fabulous-ysengrim", "hairy-annie" or "fox-Rey". Rather, that HR Giger version of Kat seems like Zimmy`s interpretation of what she senses of the other girl. Remember, when she was in Annie`s infirmary room Zimmy saw Kat`s inner thoughts as a pigeon above her head, something no one had seen before (like Annie or Rey).
Xenomorph-kat appeared phisically on "Torn Sea" only because the ship was feeding Zimmie with ether, which made her hallucinations come true. Even the ship had an etheric form like a whale. IIRC it has been said that, without containment, Zimmy`s visions can manifest in the real world.
3) The fact Kat's parents are keeping her hidden from Coyote (they won`t allow her to go to the forest or even to show up at medium meetings) seems to imply that the god would figure something if he saw her.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jan 25, 2015 4:30:25 GMT
three thoughts: 1) But how can Kat not have a presence in the ether? I wonder if she`s not what it seems at first sight. Maybe an advanced robot, some form of clone or another kind of being. Maybe she`s an incarnation of the seed Bismuth itself, or have some of it in her (just as Annie is some diluted form of fire elemental). LAUGHING ON LINE (edit: "laughing on line"? What the heck) Jones also can`t get in touch with the ether and she seems to be an artificial being. Kat could read Diego`s code after all, something the robots said was impossible for humans. She also could see beyond the "smoke and mirrors" when they were in the RotD. 2) Zimmy`s vision of Kat does not seem to be an etheric form like "worm-coyote", "fabulous-ysengrim", "hairy-annie" or "fox-Rey". Rather, that HR Giger version of Kat seems like Zimmy`s interpretation of what she senses of the other girl. Remember, when she was in Annie`s infirmary room Zimmy saw Kat`s inner thoughts as a pigeon above her head, something no one had seen before (like Annie or Rey). Xenomorph-kat appeared phisically on "Torn Sea" only because the ship was feeding Zimmie with ether, which made her hallucinations come true. Even the ship had an etheric form like a whale. IIRC it has been said that, without containment, Zimmy`s visions can manifest in the real world. 3) The fact Kat's parents are keeping her hidden from Coyote (they won`t allow her to go to the forest or even to show up at medium meetings) seems to imply that the god would figure something if he saw her. speculated that Kat is an android created by Anja and Donald. I've babbled about Kat using the Seed Bismuth to grow robots and link them to the ether. Mostly because the Seed Bismuth is a pretty big Chekov's Gun hanging on the wall. It is going to go off sooner or later. |
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Post by thedoctor on Jan 25, 2015 7:55:46 GMT
I can't help but think that Kat would just see a coyote. Like how she sees the ROTD. She can't even hear him talk, it's just a coyote jumping around being a jabrony. Not a serious theory, I just think it'd be funny if Kat went to the forest and was all "animals?? and trees?? what's the big deal?" I really like this theory as well. Incidentally, what does "jabrony" mean? |
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Post by keef on Jan 25, 2015 12:16:40 GMT
IF worship from the robots is capable of turning Kat into a deity of some kind - thus giving her a presence in the ether, then Coyote/Kat could well see something different to her boring old form. Of course, Kat may need to be in the ether herself for that to work, and barring Zimmingham shenanigans, that seems hard to accomplish. I still want to hold to the theory that Kat is the inspiration for the Mecha-Angel, not the actual Mecha-Angel. I agree. This was mentioned in the Robot religion thread around here.
To quote myself:
Paz seeing Kat the angel does not necessarily mean Kat the girl did not exist at that point. Coyote looking at Kat would be completely different. He may not be all-seeing, and even a bit stupid, but he would probably not miss something even a simple verification-bat notices. |
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Post by hypixion on Jan 25, 2015 14:05:47 GMT
I think it will do good if Kat went to the forest.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jan 25, 2015 16:07:34 GMT
Paz seeing Kat the angel does not necessarily mean Kat the girl did not exist at that point. Coyote looking at Kat would be completely different. He may not be all-seeing, and even a bit stupid, but he would probably not miss something even a simple verification-bat notices. True. Zimmy's (and Zimmingham related) hallucinations may be visions of the future. And even if Kat and the Mecha-Angel exist as two separate entities, then the two may still be blurred together in a hallucination. Also, if Coyote sees the Creator symbol above Kat, then he might also say " I don't recognize this junk!" Which would probably fascinate Coyote even more than immediately recognizing Kat for what she is or will be. Jones and Coyote, both have been around so long and seen so much that now they are just looking for another good time.* EDIT: Inspired by this from Dead Winter. Particularly like the GIF-like animated page here. * Sorry about linking to a Vevo channel with its annoying ads, but it is the legal posting of this copyrighted material. |
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