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Post by Sky Schemer on Dec 30, 2014 21:47:05 GMT
His actions, however well-intentioned, have created dangerous situations. I like him, but I don't regard him as being safe to have around. He's a loose cannon. Not to be flippant, but this description could apply to Annie, too. |
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Post by Daedalus on Dec 30, 2014 22:41:42 GMT
I don't get that, Robot has been an important character in the whole comic, and a friend of Annie and Kat, you know, one of the good guys That is exactly the problem. He's one of our heroes, right? Then we all find out that, suddenly, he appears to be on the side of the villains (insofar as GKC has villains). It's heartbreaking. He even knew that Kat would not approve ('we knew this was a likely outcome')! But he did it anyway, demonstrating that he is now following his own agenda rather than trying to promote/help Kat. Or, alternatively, he's decided he knows what's best for her. Both are bad. Specifically, my problem is with how he has betrayed our protagonists' trust (and by proxy, the trust of the audience). Furthermore, anyone who embraces 'the ends justify the means' fully is dangerous and worrysome - I've disliked the new 'Prophet' Robot for a while now; this is just the most blatant action he's taken. When did our innocent robot decide that he'd be willing to sacrifice our heroines or even his own goddess to achieve his murky ends? At that exact moment, when he decided 'it would be worth it' to betray his friends to get what he wanted, he deserved to be paperclipped. At least, IMO. (shrug) (All of this could be reversed with future information, of course. Or he could be redeemed some day. But for now...bad Robot!) |
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icekatze
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Post by icekatze on Dec 30, 2014 22:57:29 GMT
hi hi
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr.
Objectifying young children and treating them simply as tools to your own ends cannot put an end to people being treated as tools. There wasn't just potential danger, they seriously violated Zimmy.
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Post by todd on Dec 30, 2014 22:59:34 GMT
hi hi "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr. Objectifying young children and treating them simply as tools to your own ends cannot put an end to people being treated as tools. There wasn't just potential danger, they seriously violated Zimmy. Yes - I think that the look of horror on Zimmy and Gamma's faces as the crew-robots grabbed them - followed by Gamma bowing her head in what looked like pain and despair on the page where the ship turned into Zimmy's world - was enough to make it clear that what the Seraphs had done was wrong. |
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Post by keef on Dec 31, 2014 0:54:00 GMT
Looking back at this chapter:
There was a plan. I do not doubt the plan is S13's. Maybe he involved the seraphs and the ship, maybe the other s-series were in on it from the beginning. The ship is no more then a fool in love. Pity him.
The plan: Hijack the ship, with two possible outcomes:
1 Kat tries to make a 'Fleshbot' but fails because of early interruption. Result: Kat realizes there is something very interesting about her control over artificial flesh.
(speculation)
2 The ship becomes 'Fleshbot' still an robot driven by CPU, but with artificial muscle. What they planned beyond that I really don't understand.
But the real objective: Kat realizes she has a supernatural power?(/speculation)
From the moment they hurt Zimmy, and later tagged Annie and some of her classmates they burned their bridges.
The seraphs have fallen, S13 is now (to the readers) officially a bad guy...., but rejoice: there is love!
Robot loves people. Real love, not Diego's obsessive stalking, but real. Friendship: Kat, Rey. Parental love: Annie. And passionate love: Shadow. And of course religious love: The Angel.
(speculation)
I think it's unlikely the other robots knew.
Robot/S13 is more then the other seraphs a copy of Diego (maybe the extra part on his chip, not just a prophesy coprocessor, but an upload of Diego's personality.) This makes him both more dangerous and more human.
Kat's enthusiasm for summer might be partly based on the fact she felt some control over the artificial tissue she couldn't really explain, but was divine...
(/speculation)
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Dec 31, 2014 1:09:40 GMT
Looking back at this chapter: There was a plan. I do not doubt the plan is S13's. Maybe he involved the seraphs and the ship, maybe the other s-series were in on it from the beginning. The ship is no more then a fool in love. Pity him. The plan: Hijack the ship, with two possible outcomes: 1 Kat tries to make a 'Fleshbot' but fails because of early interruption. Result: Kat realizes there is something very interesting about her control over artificial flesh. (speculation) 2 The ship becomes 'Fleshbot' still an robot driven by CPU, but with artificial muscle. What they planned beyond that I really don't understand. But the real objective: Kat realizes she has a supernatural power?(/speculation) From the moment they hurt Zimmy, and later tagged Annie and some of her classmates they burned their bridges. The seraphs have fallen, S13 is now (to the readers) officially a bad guy...., but rejoice: there is love! Robot loves people. Real love, not Diego's obsessive stalking, but real. Friendship: Kat, Rey. Parental love: Annie. And passionate love: Shadow. And of course religious love: The Angel. (speculation) I think it's unlikely the other robots knew. Robot/S13 is more then the other seraphs a copy of Diego (maybe the extra part on his chip, not just a prophesy coprocessor, but an upload of Diego's personality. This makes him both more dangerous and more human. Kat's enthusiasm for summer might be partly based on the fact she felt some control over the artificial tissue she couldn't really explain, but was divine... (/speculation) Annie gave Robot something he never had, a choice. Maybe towards the end of Robot's story arc, Kat will end up giving Robot something else he's never had, forgivness. |
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Post by Daedalus on Dec 31, 2014 1:37:39 GMT
keef: question - where do you get that Diego's personality was uploaded into Robot S13? Was it when his CPU was plugged into the vintage Seraph?
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Post by davidm on Dec 31, 2014 4:08:17 GMT
keef: question - where do you get that Diego's personality was uploaded into Robot S13? Was it when his CPU was plugged into the vintage Seraph? Robot CPU was always special, had an extra piece grafted on, that they didn't understand... could be many things including something hand created by Diego long ago, using microscopic runes. Runes also allow one to tap into a different larger computer, so it could be a form of remote connection to something even bigger that Diego secretly left behind. The original golem robots shut themselves down to make room for new generations, we don't know why, possibly there is some dark secret, something they didn't want to have repeat, and Robot has a fragment of that dark secret glued to his cpu. We could even have something as crazy as older Diego having a long term plan to: 1) preserve part of himself in runes as a golem/robot, or some other trick. Eg if they can trap Jeanne's spirit, perhaps he can trap his own somewheres and use runes in a chip to link to it or contain it. 2) Work towards turning robot into human looking. 3) At same time, work towards having Jeanne "she died and we did nothing" brought back/possessing flesh - take over mind of a current young girl or implant into a "human like" robot. 4) Robot Diego would then attempt to win robot Jeanne's love, he is no longer ugly or weak but a robot that appears to be a handsome human, obviously that was only reason she wasn't in love with him in first place! (Perfect plan, even better than the Love Boat!) would be the sort of plot twist of a horror/sf/twilight zone/outer limits. |
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Post by avurai on Dec 31, 2014 8:21:08 GMT
In all honesty, I don't get what's happening here. So, the Seraphs, Robot included (and other Court robots?), view the possession of flesh as a form of 'ascension', a step closer to a higher plane of existence (a.k.a. Kat and her human world), and desire it also because it will be an act of love from their angel. To motivate Kat to 'ascend' them, Robot convinces the ship to express their desire of possessing flesh. Whether the intended outcome would be achieved we will see in later chapters, but the expected side effect of the plan which the Seraphs and Robot were willing to bear was that Kat would distrust the Seraphs. They justified this based on Kat's analysis of Diego's actions: love makes people act in strange ways; that much I know. Please enlighten me if I have any misconceptions. The chapter where "It was worth it" was introduced came along when Kat and Paz first became a couple. The artificial muscle/bone structure that Kat had been working on was incinerated and completely destroyed, but as a result of the ordeal, Paz and Kat shared their first kiss, prompting Kat to say "It was worth it"... Which Robot parroted to the other robots as they buried the ashes, referring to the arm as a corpse. There's two phrases at play here. "It was worth it" and "Love can make you act in strange ways." Robot is using both of these phrases to meet his own near-evangelical ends. From the robots' perspective, on the one hand we have Kat deciding that a sacrifice of 'life taken at her own hand' was worth it because it resulted in consummated love. This meant that they could themselves make sacrifices if it justified their own means. What were these means? Those means were of a robotic construct wishing to be given 'real flesh' similar to what Kat accidentally incinerated on her 'date' with Paz, in the sake of consummating love. Kat was deterred from completing this construction by Paz, who snapped her out of it. We see two sides here. On one, the innocent and personal side. On the other, the darker and stalker-ish side. The sacrifice that was made which resulted in Kat and Paz's relationship is blown out of proportion in order to justify the same thought processes that wracked Diego's interactions with Jeanne before he had her killed, which obviously parallel the Ship's to Lindsey. We see also the the manipulative nature of Robot's message to the other AI. This semi-biological construct was worth destroying for the sake of love > this semi-biological construct was worth endangering lives for the sake of unrequited love. They're devolving into their basest programming, which was done by Diego: to lust from afar (Diego > Jeanne; Ship > Lindsey) and use whatever ends may get them what they want (creating robots; creating a physical form). The next, most horrifying step, is what happens when they can't get what they want. We've seen this story before with Diego and Jeanne. We know what happens then. |
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Post by matoyak on Dec 31, 2014 9:32:41 GMT
keef: question - where do you get that Diego's personality was uploaded into Robot S13? Was it when his CPU was plugged into the vintage Seraph? Robot CPU was always special, had an extra piece grafted on Would someone mind pointing me towards where I could find where it is shown that Robot/S13's CPU is different than the others'? I never caught that, myself, and it's definitely interesting. The next, most horrifying step, is what happens when they can't get what they want. We've seen this story before with Diego and Jeanne. We know what happens then. I wonder what happens if they DO get what they want? |
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Post by keef on Dec 31, 2014 9:47:19 GMT
keef: question - where do you get that Diego's personality was uploaded into Robot S13? Was it when his CPU was plugged into the vintage Seraph? It was between home made speculation tags of course, but my wild guess is Diego made the S-CPUs himself. Robot CPU was always special, had an extra piece grafted on Would someone mind pointing me towards where I could find where it is shown that Robot/S13's CPU is different than the others'? I never caught that, myself, and it's definitely interesting. |
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Post by matoyak on Dec 31, 2014 10:33:42 GMT
Would someone mind pointing me towards where I could find where it is shown that Robot/S13's CPU is different than the others'? I never caught that, myself, and it's definitely interesting. Oooh, right. Thank you kindly. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Dec 31, 2014 12:08:23 GMT
keef: question - where do you get that Diego's personality was uploaded into Robot S13? Was it when his CPU was plugged into the vintage Seraph? Robot CPU was always special, had an extra piece grafted on, that they didn't understand... could be many things including something hand created by Diego long ago, using microscopic runes. Runes also allow one to tap into a different larger computer, so it could be a form of remote connection to something even bigger that Diego secretly left behind. The original golem robots shut themselves down to make room for new generations, we don't know why, possibly there is some dark secret, something they didn't want to have repeat, and Robot has a fragment of that dark secret glued to his cpu. We could even have something as crazy as older Diego having a long term plan to: 1) preserve part of himself in runes as a golem/robot, or some other trick. Eg if they can trap Jeanne's spirit, perhaps he can trap his own somewheres and use runes in a chip to link to it or contain it. 2) Work towards turning robot into human looking. 3) At same time, work towards having Jeanne "she died and we did nothing" brought back/possessing flesh - take over mind of a current young girl or implant into a "human like" robot. 4) Robot Diego would then attempt to win robot Jeanne's love, he is no longer ugly or weak but a robot that appears to be a handsome human, obviously that was only reason she wasn't in love with him in first place! (Perfect plan, even better than the Love Boat!) would be the sort of plot twist of a horror/sf/twilight zone/outer limits. I guess I assumed the extra blue piece was on every Seraph's CPU, but there is nothing definitive in the comic. Perusing the Formspring Q&A was interesting, but also inconclusive. Q: Will we find out what the "extra part" on Robot's CPU is? A: I hope so. And I saw that Tom explained why the original Court robots and the current robots used the same CPU socket. That was noted and debated in other threads, but I don't recall this WOT coming up. Q: Do Court robots reuse the CPUs from their previous designs as they build new bodies? A: Largely yes |
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Post by todd on Dec 31, 2014 23:02:50 GMT
Let's hope that in the future, Kat's parents or teachers don't decide that she's spending too much time on her robot project at the expense of other things (like regular schoolwork) and try to get her to cut back; I shiver to think of how the Seraphs would respond to that.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jan 1, 2015 1:03:27 GMT
Let's hope that in the future, Kat's parents or teachers don't decide that she's spending too much time on her robot project at the expense of other things (like regular schoolwork) and try to get her to cut back; I shiver to think of how the Seraphs would respond to that. I kind of wonder if the school work is even a challenge for Kat anymore. It could be trivial enough that she is finishing her schoolwork during class and has plenty of time to work on the robots. Maybe Kat is already capable of testing out of the remaining years. Take all the A Levels cold, correct the errors in the tests, drop the mike and walk away. I really thought about Kat knocking out A Levels in response to two questions: 1. If Kat was offered the A Levels early, would she turn it down to finish the remaining school years with Annie and Paz. I think she would stay with her class and I can see her parents supporting that desire so she can grow up like a normal girl. 2. If Annie was kicked out of the Court (for going to far over to the forest side or just leaving in disgust to live the rest of her short life in the forest), and Kat was separated from Paz (they simple broke up or Paz's family pulls her out of the school after finding out about their relationship), would Kat knock out the A Levels so she could leave the school. I could see Kat doing that to get away from the school and its bad memories. The sixth treatise shows Kat wearing a Court administration badge, so I think the second unpleasant scenario is likely. I don't see Annie leaving Kat willing and I can see Annie curbing her behavior to keep from being separated from Kat. I don't see Paz having a problem with Kat being some kind of Mecha-Angel because Paz can see the beauty in others regardless of their form (i.e. Lindsey). And I could see the Court "helping" Paz's parents accept her, where else can Paz go that will let her develop her talents and not burn her at the stake. Things will probably get really rocky, there is no drama without suffering, but I think the sixth treatise is an indication that Kat will stay with the Court even after school. |
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Post by snipertom on Jan 1, 2015 9:54:33 GMT
Let's hope that in the future, Kat's parents or teachers don't decide that she's spending too much time on her robot project at the expense of other things (like regular schoolwork) and try to get her to cut back; I shiver to think of how the Seraphs would respond to that. I kind of wonder if the school work is even a challenge for Kat anymore. It could be trivial enough that she is finishing her schoolwork during class and has plenty of time to work on the robots. Maybe Kat is already capable of testing out of the remaining years. Take all the A Levels cold, correct the errors in the tests, drop the mike and walk away. I really thought about Kat knocking out A Levels in response to two questions: 1. If Kat was offered the A Levels early, would she turn it down to finish the remaining school years with Annie and Paz. I think she would stay with her class and I can see her parents supporting that desire so she can grow up like a normal girl. 2. If Annie was kicked out of the Court (for going to far over to the forest side or just leaving in disgust to live the rest of her short life in the forest), and Kat was separated from Paz (they simple broke up or Paz's family pulls her out of the school after finding out about their relationship), would Kat knock out the A Levels so she could leave the school. I could see Kat doing that to get away from the school and its bad memories. The sixth treatise shows Kat wearing a Court administration badge, so I think the second unpleasant scenario is likely. I don't see Annie leaving Kat willing and I can see Annie curbing her behavior to keep from being separated from Kat. I don't see Paz having a problem with Kat being some kind of Mecha-Angel because Paz can see the beauty in others regardless of their form (i.e. Lindsey). And I could see the Court "helping" Paz's parents accept her, where else can Paz go that will let her develop her talents and not burn her at the stake. Things will probably get really rocky, there is no drama without suffering, but I think the sixth treatise is an indication that Kat will stay with the Court even after school. Judging at least from my experience with the option of finishing school early with few friends and many (sort-of) enemies to go off and have more of a challenge, I'd be skeptical that kat would want to stay on just for Annie and Paz seeing as she'd still probably be living in the coirt. However, love is a pretty strong emotion I guess? |
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Post by todd on Jan 1, 2015 12:01:42 GMT
2. If Annie was kicked out of the Court (for going to far over to the forest side or just leaving in disgust to live the rest of her short life in the forest), and Kat was separated from Paz (they simple broke up or Paz's family pulls her out of the school after finding out about their relationship) I doubt that the Court would actually expel Annie, simply because of the problem with Reynardine that would lead to; if they stop Annie from taking him with her, that could break her hold on him, meaning he could leave the doll body and do who knows what (the bulk of the administratin must still see him as just a body-snatching demon - without even giving any thought to their being partly responsible for what he did), and if they don't, then he'll be outside the Court, and they'll be unable to keep watch over him at all. (Though that doesn't prevent Annie from deciding just to leave - which might also give the Court administration some anxious moments). Paz's parents might also try pulling her out of the Court if they find out about the cruise ship incident and think that the Court's much too dangerous for their daughter to attend. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 1, 2015 23:43:23 GMT
2. If Annie was kicked out of the Court (for going to far over to the forest side or just leaving in disgust to live the rest of her short life in the forest), and Kat was separated from Paz (they simple broke up or Paz's family pulls her out of the school after finding out about their relationship) I doubt that the Court would actually expel Annie, simply because of the problem with Reynardine that would lead to; if they stop Annie from taking him with her, that could break her hold on him, meaning he could leave the doll body and do who knows what (the bulk of the administratin must still see him as just a body-snatching demon - without even giving any thought to their being partly responsible for what he did), and if they don't, then he'll be outside the Court, and they'll be unable to keep watch over him at all. Let us not forget that Renard is relatively easy to kill, as supernatural beings go. Destroy his body and he will die. The Court might not want to do that, but if the administration sees him as that big of a threat, they might consider it (especially if they're been pressed by an imminent robot revolution). |
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Post by thedoctor on Jan 11, 2015 0:13:24 GMT
His actions, however well-intentioned, have created dangerous situations. I like him, but I don't regard him as being safe to have around. He's a loose cannon. Not to be flippant, but this description could apply to Annie, too. YES! In addition, it's pretty clear that Robot didn't orchestrate this whole thing " your actions have led..." That said, I don't think his approval is a good thing; I just think that he wouldn't ever deliberately threaten the safety of the Angel or those she is close to. While Robot is pretty crazy, he's not as bad as the Seraphim. Robot's like the pope, and the Seraphim are his crusaders. They follow his doctrine, but they also do crazy stuff that's out of his control. I don't think that's a very good comparison; Urban II absolved his crusaders of all wrongdoing; he knew perfectly well what was going to happen. I'm pretty sure the Pope was at least as culpable as his crusaders. They did crazy stuff, but he fully intended them to. |
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Post by todd on Jan 11, 2015 12:15:09 GMT
One thing that occurred to me recently was that Robot's being part of the rescue party was beneficial for the Seraphs. As the final pages of this chapter pointed out, they knew that their actions would lead to Kat's anger at them. This, in turn, would make it difficult for them to observe her progress on her work if they're banished from her presence.
But if Robot remains in her good graces, he can observe it and secretly report to the Seraphs. And while he was already friends with Kat and Annie anyway, his helping them and their classmates escape from Zimmy's world would reinforce that. (Indeed, maybe the Seraphs made themselves seem all the more menacing to the students so that they'd welcome a deliverer all the more. Their plan was going to alienate Kat anyway - there was no way they could give her a taste of etheric powers without kidnapping Zimmy and forcing her to bring Kat into her world, as far as we know - so why not add to it by doing it on the cruise where all of her classmates would be subjected to it as well, threatening Paz when she tries to persuade the ship that its obsession with Lindsey was wrong, maybe even making the surface demand of Kat to be an accessory to an attempted seduction of a married woman?) So the Seraphs continue to have eyes and ears to keep themselves updated on Kat's work, even after their exile.
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