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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Dec 26, 2014 23:11:10 GMT
So knowing Tom the next page probably will have: monster trucks and electric guitars My guess is that Tom is saving that epic call back for 6th Form. |
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Post by todd on Dec 26, 2014 23:18:52 GMT
I'm curious why the Seraphs felt this plan was a wise use of their capital with Kat, the other robots, and the Court. Did they get what they wanted out of it? I'm hoping the next comic sheds some light on their deeper motives and where they think this is going from here, since obviously Kat is no longer going to be cooperating. It might have been a case of: 1 Kat got a taste of what it was like to build a new body for a robot (if through means that she can't use again), and may still feel its call, urging her to savor its delight again. 2. Kat also concluded as a result of the adventure that she'd been delaying her work on the project too long and that she needed to get focused, to dedicate more time to it instead of other things (such as dates with Paz). The discussion of whether or not Robot was involved in the scheme - and the argument that since he was involved in the rescue, he couldn't have been - brought something else to mind; what if the rescue was part of the scheme, in a way (if allowing the students to call for help)? People brought up here how easy it all was - what if that was a hint that the students weren't intended to stay trapped in Zimmy's world for long, just long enough for Kat to get her first intoxicating taste of shaping a new body for a robot? And once that was done, the Seraphs could afford to allow the students to shut the project down, putting up only a token resistance; the mission had been accomplished. Presumably, helping the ship seduce Lindsey was just the front for the scheme (and its pursuit of her only got a few bits of attention - less than, say, the introduction of Jenny or Jack's feelings about Zimmy or Kat's excitement over what she could do - which could suggest that the ship was just a plot-device character, written out once its role had been fulfilled - we don't even see any sort of resolution to that element in the form of, say, some last interaction between the "whale" and Lindsey when she arrives to rip off the roof). Which might also explain such flaws in the scheme as how the ship could possibly think Lindsey would want anything to do with it after interfering with her charges or the fact that she's happily married to Bud; the ship's pursuit of Lindsey was just the front for something else (though I think it really did desire her - but was being used - and that Tom didn't intend it to be as important as the Seraphs, for that matter). Some years ago, there was a very good animated series called "Gargoyles" whose chief antagonist (a wealthy New York businessman named David Xanatos) would come up with several schemes seemingly designed to defeat the title characters; episodes would frequently end with the revelation that Xanatos's real goal in that story wasn't to kill or capture the gargoyles, bu to accomplish something else, and that the attack on the gargoyles themselves was just a diversion. The Seraphs' scheme may have been working on a similar principle. |
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Post by keef on Dec 26, 2014 23:28:03 GMT
If there is someone off panel speaking, contextually it makes the most sense for it to be Robot because he had the most contact with the seraphs and was there when they became convinced Kat is the Creator. Also, i think this is the place where Robot was imprisoned by the Seraphs in "Changes" and that can't be a coincidence. Likely he became their, i dunno, spiritual leader? Robot Pope? But if it is S13 i'm wondering about Shadow. there is no way Shadow would do along with putting the kids in so much danger. A poor start to a relationship. S13 might think Shadow doesn't need to know. Indeed a bad start. The reason suggested for handing Annie the tooth was defence against Jeanne, a lot of us think Coyote's goal in the end was hurting Jones. My guess is Shadow becoming 3d was not expected by Coyote. The discussion of whether or not Robot was involved in the scheme - and the argument that since he was involved in the rescue, he couldn't have been - brought something else to mind; what if the rescue was part of the scheme? People brought up here how easy it all was - what if that was a hint that the students weren't intended to stay trapped in Zimmy's world for long, just long enough for Kat to get her first intoxicating taste of shaping a new body for a robot? Absolutely possible I guess, looking back at the seraphs behaviour, they never really tried stopping the students. |
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Post by thedoctor on Dec 27, 2014 0:32:22 GMT
If there is someone off panel speaking, contextually it makes the most sense for it to be Robot because he had the most contact with the seraphs and was there when they became convinced Kat is the Creator. Also, i think this is the place where Robot was imprisoned by the Seraphs in "Changes" and that can't be a coincidence. Likely he became their, i dunno, spiritual leader? Robot Pope? But if it is S13 i'm wondering about Shadow. there is no way Shadow would do along with putting the kids in so much danger. A poor start to a relationship. S13 might think Shadow doesn't need to know. Indeed a bad start. The reason suggested for handing Annie the tooth was defence against Jeanne, a lot of us think Coyote's goal in the end was hurting Jones. My guess is Shadow becoming 3d was not expected by Coyote. The discussion of whether or not Robot was involved in the scheme - and the argument that since he was involved in the rescue, he couldn't have been - brought something else to mind; what if the rescue was part of the scheme? People brought up here how easy it all was - what if that was a hint that the students weren't intended to stay trapped in Zimmy's world for long, just long enough for Kat to get her first intoxicating taste of shaping a new body for a robot? Absolutely possible I guess, looking back at the seraphs behaviour, they never really tried stopping the students. I would note that I don't think Coyote ever really has a plan, so most of what results from his actions is (to him) unexpected. My money is on the rescue being part of the overall plan, though I can't fathom why that would be true (not enough data yet). |
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Post by TBeholder on Dec 27, 2014 3:40:20 GMT
Yes, you are probably right. But your rightnes leaves us nothing to speculate and it is Christmas time, so we are all bored shitless. Correction: it removes 1 (one) knot suitable for hair splitting that's obviously pulled out of thin air anyway. There's always a lot of things to speculate over. "Bored" is just a mental equivalent of a big yellow beak all drying inside because it's constantly open wide and no one put a worm into it for a while.  " We also crave the need to speculate."(c)  Maybe they are so sure they can manipulate her anyway, they don't care she wishes to never see them again, because they have an agent who has her ear. S13 still the most scary and likely candidate. You stopped halfway. Seraphs don't need to manipulate Kat much. S13 was already close to her. He presumably shares their purpose, while deviating in methods and assessment of the situation... which caused conflict, but they already have admitted that he was right before that exercise in laser graffiti. At this point, sacrificing their already shaky standing with Kat for one big step forward plus better position for S13 may be acceptable. The other robots, let alone the rest of Court, may become a problem, of course. But anyone who even considers using Zimmy's freakouts as stepping stones... As "The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries" put it: Maxim 14: "Mad Science" means never stopping to ask "what's the worst thing that could happen?" |
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Post by warrl on Dec 27, 2014 5:39:06 GMT
If you look at the first panel, it shows the Seraphs standing by themselves in the center of an enormous, totally empty room. Unless the 'off-panel' speaker is invisible, or has run up very fast without causing any of the Seraphs to turn and look at them (note that they are all in a circle focused on one another), then it is probably safe to conclude that it is not an off-panel speaker at all, simply the lower-right Seraph who the word balloon is directly above. Or the robots in the circle were already aware that another robot was coming, and did not find his arrival noteworthy enough to delay their conversation for. (I think your conclusion is probably correct - but I wouldn't call it "safe".) |
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Post by Elysium on Dec 27, 2014 10:12:11 GMT
Absolutely possible I guess, looking back at the seraphs behaviour, they never really tried stopping the students. They sure did, that's what the tags were for, the only reason the students were able to send for help, was because Jenny and Jack weren't present in the hall. For the rescue ro be planned it would mean that Jack and Jenny are involved, otherwise it's a ridiculously long shot to forsee that they will both drop out before the scene, and improvise a guided drone. |
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Post by keef on Dec 27, 2014 11:02:32 GMT
Absolutely possible I guess, looking back at the seraphs behaviour, they never really tried stopping the students. They sure did, that's what the tags were for, the only reason the students were able to send for help, was because Jenny and Jack weren't present in the hall. For the rescue ro be planned it would mean that Jack and Jenny are involved, otherwise it's a ridiculously long shot to forsee that they will both drop out before the scene, and improvise a guided drone. On the other hand they could have made sure at least some students were not in the hall before they made their dramatic entry, or just assumed the students would work something out. I guess what todd meant was the ease of the whole rescue operation, and that was what I agreed with. a mental equivalent of a big yellow beak all drying inside because it's constantly open wide and no one put a worm into it for a while. That description feels disturbingly correct  I'll shut up for a minute now.. |
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Post by todd on Dec 27, 2014 11:42:28 GMT
I guess what todd meant was the ease of the whole rescue operation, and that was what I agreed with. Yes, that's what I meant - the possibility that the lack of any setbacks once the robot rescue party arrived was a sign that it was being allowed to happen (and it would certainly explain why a good writer like Tom had left out any serious suspense once that began). |
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Post by Elysium on Dec 27, 2014 12:55:54 GMT
I guess what todd meant was the ease of the whole rescue operation, and that was what I agreed with. It was easy because they got outside help, without that they wouldn't be able to have: - reinforcements, - Annie back at full potential - the possibility to blast the ether siphons |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Dec 27, 2014 14:53:56 GMT
Absolutely possible I guess, looking back at the seraphs behaviour, they never really tried stopping the students. They sure did, that's what the tags were for, the only reason the students were able to send for help, was because Jenny and Jack weren't present in the hall. For the rescue ro be planned it would mean that Jack and Jenny are involved, otherwise it's a ridiculously long shot to forsee that they will both drop out before the scene, and improvise a guided drone. The etheric tags kept the students from interfering with the start of the plan. Once everything was started, the Seraphs would achieve their objective whether the student's interupted the process or not. Jenny was part of the plot. The ship waited until after they left the room before interupting the dance. She probably gave Jack the idea of using the robocopter and Annie's blinkerstone to ensure that Reynard and Robot were contacted instead of the Court. EEE EEE |
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pasko
Full Member
Objection!
Posts: 224
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Post by pasko on Dec 27, 2014 17:08:51 GMT
Some years ago, there was a very good animated series called "Gargoyles" whose chief antagonist (a wealthy New York businessman named David Xanatos) would come up with several schemes seemingly designed to defeat the title characters; episodes would frequently end with the revelation that Xanatos's real goal in that story wasn't to kill or capture the gargoyles, bu to accomplish something else, and that the attack on the gargoyles themselves was just a diversion. The Seraphs' scheme may have been working on a similar principle. hence the trope called xanatos gambit. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit |
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Post by Aurelia Verity on Dec 27, 2014 19:13:17 GMT
S13 might think Shadow doesn't need to know. Indeed a bad start. The reason suggested for handing Annie the tooth was defense against Jeanne, a lot of us think Coyote's goal in the end was hurting Jones. My guess is Shadow becoming 3d was not expected by Coyote. I would note that I don't think Coyote ever really has a plan, so most of what results from his actions is (to him) unexpected. My money is on the rescue being part of the overall plan, though I can't fathom why that would be true (not enough data yet). I can see why he would be interested in having Annie get rid of Jeanne in some way. then there would be no protective ward between Court and Forest which could open Coyote for all sorts of shenanigans. but why hurt Jones? just to see if he can? she's not really doing any damage to him so far unless i missed something. Also, i always wondered if the tooth had any power to hurt coyote himself? as in, the only thing that can kill him (hurt him?) is himself. After all it could cut the very earth and Coyote is often shown being made of earth. that may have been a hint. i have no proof of this other than he didn't want the forest people to know she possessed a tooth at all, which may have been for any number of reasons that are not this one. the tooth is an interesting element. more so because Annie never uses it. she seems to have easily handed it to Parley. Also, also, the Shadow man becoming 3D was probably not in Coyote's plans, but how AMUSED would he be when he found out?  |
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Post by keef on Dec 27, 2014 21:41:26 GMT
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Post by warrl on Dec 27, 2014 21:58:01 GMT
My guess is that Jones and Coyote are incapable of doing each other any significant or persistent harm. Perhaps Jones is capable of forcing Coyote to discorporate for a second or two, but that would be it; he'd just re-form somewhere else, perhaps only a few feet away. Perhaps Coyote can force Jones to move (I wouldn't bet on it), but he can't injure her body in any way.
On the other hand, each is capable of doing harm to those *around* the other. Jones could take Ysengrim apart; Coyote could take down Eglamore, and probably even keep up with his jumping. Less capable beings would be toast.
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Post by todd on Dec 27, 2014 23:03:16 GMT
Since Coyote and Jones (not to mention Coyote's tooth-knife) haven't featured in this chapter, I think it's a moot point at present.
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Post by todd on Dec 27, 2014 23:04:49 GMT
I guess what todd meant was the ease of the whole rescue operation, and that was what I agreed with. It was easy because they got outside help, without that they wouldn't be able to have: - reinforcements, - Annie back at full potential - the possibility to blast the ether siphons The point was that everything went smoothly without any setbacks, unexpected trouble, horrorx from Zimmy's world showing up, etc. |
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Post by Daedalus on Dec 28, 2014 5:55:15 GMT
Absolutely possible I guess, looking back at the seraphs behaviour, they never really tried stopping the students. They sure did, that's what the tags were for, the only reason the students were able to send for help, was because Jenny and Jack weren't present in the hall. For the rescue ro be planned it would mean that Jack and Jenny are involved, otherwise it's a ridiculously long shot to forsee that they will both drop out before the scene, and improvise a guided drone. Although personally I'm of the opinion that Robot S13 is innocent until proven guilty, let's indulge in some wildspec: It's possible that S13 knew the whole situation (and/or planned it with the Seraphs) and was waiting for the right moment to swoop in with the Robot King and be the heroic savior. He was just expecting that the kids would be resourceful enough to send some kind of signal. Or perhaps the Seraphs knew Jack and Jenny would depart at some point, and just waited until that happened. |
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Post by Elysium on Dec 28, 2014 7:08:42 GMT
The point was that everything went smoothly without any setbacks, unexpected trouble, horrorx from Zimmy's world showing up, etc. It's not enough reason to say that the whole escape was planned by the seraphs. |
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Post by todd on Dec 28, 2014 12:06:48 GMT
The point was that everything went smoothly without any setbacks, unexpected trouble, horrorx from Zimmy's world showing up, etc. It's not enough reason to say that the whole escape was planned by the seraphs. Maybe not, but my point is this: there has to be some significance for why Tom made the rescue so easy, just one success after another, with no setbacks, nothing going wrong, etc. (Unless he was distracted by something while planning the story in this chapter, and didn't give it his full attention.) |
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Post by Elysium on Dec 28, 2014 13:43:33 GMT
Maybe not, but my point is this: there has to be some significance for why Tom made the rescue so easy Disagree, the chapter was long enough as it is, whitout the need to extend it even more for...what exactly ? |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Dec 28, 2014 16:12:41 GMT
Maybe not, but my point is this: there has to be some significance for why Tom made the rescue so easy Disagree, the chapter was long enough as it is, whitout the need to extend it even more for...what exactly ? Tom could have presented this chapter in two parts if he wanted to. Spring Heeled set the precedence. But none of this proves or disproves any particular speculation. Until we see the next page we don't know which robot is saying the last speech bubble on page 69. On a separate note, all this speech bubble speculation made me look at the speech bubble color properties for myself. Paz and Jenny use plain white speech bubbles (H/S = 0/0, R/G/B = 255/255/255) just most of the students and adults. For a moment I start to think that white speech bubbles could be the GKC equivalent to a red shirt. But most people have the white speech bubble so it isn't a mark of doom. |
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Post by keef on Dec 28, 2014 16:51:30 GMT
The first I thought when I saw this page was there were only five seraphs left, but looking back there is not much reason to think so; Jenny burned two, but even they may have survived. It's weird they get away with this so easy.
Bubble colours:
All robots: green
Annie: pink
Kat: blue
Rey: yellow
Jack: green
Zimmy: what do you call that: purpleish?
Ysengrin: yellow?
Probably somebody already made a nice list, but I never saw it.
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Post by Elysium on Dec 28, 2014 21:32:09 GMT
Tom could have presented this chapter in two parts if he wanted to. Spring Heeled set the precedence. Spring heeled is much more content-heavy, and it's the dialogue kind of content, Torn sea is mostly action scenes. Spring heeled could cram more exposition due to its two-part structure, but Torn sea wouldn't have added much in the way of plot, just some more action, and too much action in a three-panel-a-week story is not really welcome in my book But none of this proves or disproves any particular speculation. The "escape was planned by the seraphs" theory is seriously shaky. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Dec 28, 2014 21:39:01 GMT
But none of this proves or disproves any particular speculation. The "escape was planned by the seraphs" theory is seriously shaky. Not so much planned, but more like accounted for as an acceptable outcome as long as the Seraphs achieve their goal. And any shakier than Jenny working with the Seraphs? I can't let that one go because... jam doesn't shake that way! |
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Post by Elysium on Dec 28, 2014 21:42:43 GMT
And any shakier than Jenny working with the Seraphs? Jenny working with the seraphs is the only way to make the "escape team was seraph's plan" theory hold...well I'm using "hold" very generously here. |
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Post by hifranc on Dec 28, 2014 22:35:55 GMT
Reading the theories here, I find it hard to believe that Jenny's in on it but I do find it suspicious that they didn't neutralise her or stop Jack. I am now also wondering if the comment about Paz not being a threat was a deliberate ploy to goad Paz into doing something.
I suspect strongly that, in addition to a log of each pupil's abilities, they have access to psychological assessments. If that's the case then they would have a fair idea of how each pupil would react in such a situation. When looked at that way letting Jack go is unforgivable if the plan was meant to "succeed" because he knows Zimmingham backwards (having been infected with white legs) and reprogrammed the laser cows to keep the teachers out.
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Post by warrl on Dec 28, 2014 23:28:31 GMT
They neutralized kids' supernatural powers, or didn't, based on what they knew and what they expected. Why didn't they neutralize Jack? 1) No clearly supernatural powers 2) They didn't expect him to start working on sending a message *before* they even began their takeover. 3) He left before the uprising started and they didn't know where he was. Jack's main contribution to the action was building the drone, and his second contribution was being a strategist. Neither calls for etheric ability. Why didn't they neutralize Jenny? 1) She left before the uprising started and they didn't know where she was 2) Her powers are of a different sort, maybe they weren't aware of them or maybe they don't know how 3) Perhaps she's previously shown no propensity to violent magic, or hadn't been seen using spells they found significant 4) Perhaps they thought they'd have time to disrupt her ritual magic as the need arose - after all, drawing those big sigils with lipstick takes some time Jenny's main contribution to the action was the spells on the drone, which the seraphs didn't consider because they thought they'd get the ship into the warp before any of the kids could respond. Her second was decoy-Zimmy, which didn't call for supernatural ability. Her third was the explosive spell, which would have been nice to disrupt... if the Seraphs were aware of it and knew how. Annie, before the ship was taken into the warp, possibly could have disrupted the whole plan all by herself. In fact she did most of the actual disruption - enabled by Renard removing the ward, Renard and the robots telling her and Jack what to look for, and Jack guiding the timing. Proving that, from the robots' point of view, warding her was clearly correct. (But then failing to physically secure her was not. How could they be certain that none of the kids could remove the ward? Heck, did anyone try taking out some scissors and cutting it?) Paz's ability to talk telepathically with nonhumans was meaningless unless and until she could get within range of Lindsey. Which wouldn't happen while they were within the warp. And they didn't expect the warp to be broken before they were ready to let it happen. So why bother warding her? We only actually see them ward two others, but I couldn't tell who they are and don't know what powers they have. Janet and Willy aren't the ones. Gamma isn't one of them either. Warding Zimmy or Kat would defeat their purpose. I can't see John's/Margo's ghost-awakening as significant. Who else in that class do we even know the etheric abilities of? (Andrew and George would be significant, but they are not in that class so aren't on the ship.) |
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Post by todd on Dec 29, 2014 0:20:06 GMT
The "escape was planned by the seraphs" theory is seriously shaky. Not so much planned, but more like accounted for as an acceptable outcome as long as the Seraphs achieve their goal. That's more what I was thinking - but my chief thought was that it might explain why Tom made everything go so easily, the moment the Robot Rescue Party showed up, that there was barely any sense of danger or suspense - everything going way too easily for the protagonists at the expense of good storytelling. And the idea that he was deliberately writing it that way to indicate that there were hidden depths to the Seraphs' plan seems more plausible than that he'd gotten careless or lazy. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Dec 29, 2014 6:07:55 GMT
If you look at the first panel, it shows the Seraphs standing by themselves in the center of an enormous, totally empty room. Unless the 'off-panel' speaker is invisible, or has run up very fast without causing any of the Seraphs to turn and look at them (note that they are all in a circle focused on one another), then it is probably safe to conclude that it is not an off-panel speaker at all, simply the lower-right Seraph who the word balloon is directly above. There is precedent for this. Tom has used leaderless word balloons for on-panel speakers at least once. |
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I'll shut up for a minute now..
