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Post by artezzatrigger on Oct 8, 2014 15:06:28 GMT
Oh, she'll see you, alright: the big target of aggression you've turned yourself into for kidnapping the students :<
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 8, 2014 15:07:06 GMT
Ha, the ship says "She does not see me for who I truly am!" I bet Lindsey had a much better opinion of the ship all those years than she does now. She will now see the ship for who he truly is - a manipulative jerk with serious emotional problems. Yeah...Seriously, WHO put him up to all this though? I didn't think robots were capable of so much drama. Coyote, I'm looking at you. It's always your fault SOMEHOW. Then you've never met their Creator. Hopefully they will follow the advice of their Angel over their Creator/Father. |
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Post by warrl on Oct 8, 2014 16:21:45 GMT
I wonder what a merostomatazon of that size eats.
Their closest living relatives eat clams, worms, and other invertebrates one might find on the ocean floor - but they don't swim nearly as well as Lindsey.
Does Lindsey have a certain culinary fondness for whales?
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Post by N.Tashley on Oct 8, 2014 16:40:06 GMT
I really can't see anything the ship is doing as romantic.
I don't see this as love, I see it as obsession.
He didn't mention anything about her personality. He only likes her for her looks.
He say's he loves Lindsey, but if he knew anything about her, he'd know she'd hate this. Her job is to watch over the students and she takes it seriously. Putting them in any harm is a huge deal breaker. If you really love someone, you wouldn't impede the task they've devoted their life to.
Plus she's very happily married.
The robots learned well from Diego: love means obsessing over someone without any concern about their feelings.
I predict the ship acting very badly when Lindsey rejects him.
Also, it's a little scary that readers aren't seeing this as textbook abusive behavior. This is not a one-sided crush, this is putting your desires over other people's lives.
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Post by sapientcoffee on Oct 8, 2014 18:08:40 GMT
Because the ship is a robot. Because Diego was an obsessive, manipulative genius robot god whom the robots modeled themselves after (or there's how he programmed them, it's hard to tell how self-actualizing they are). Because their angel said, "Love makes you act in strange ways". Because Tom has showed us again and again that the robots have non-human intelligence. Think of them as aliens. What's going on right now is a failure to communicate. We'll learn more about this particular robot after Paz does her thing. It may yet back off once it learns that what it's doing is wrong. Besides, humans praise obsessive behavior all the time, it's not strange that non-humans get confused.
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Post by thecarvergirl on Oct 8, 2014 18:40:32 GMT
While thinking about these robot's idea and capacity of love, I remember Robot realizing his love for Shadow. And what we've seen of their interactions indicate a much healthier relationship, as Robot has constantly proven that he tries to do things in Shadow's best interest and safety (like helping him escape when the S1s attacked them on the roof). Either being around Kat and Annie has showed him what real love is like, or at some point during the many times he was reassembled, something was changed. (Assuming all the robots inherited this obsessive "love" of Diego's.)
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Post by davidm on Oct 8, 2014 18:41:24 GMT
I find the ship's reasoning less romantic and more creepy stalker like. I think Love is a two-way street. If it's one-way, then it's Infatuation. Both can equally inspire obsession, but Infatuation can be far less considerate. In my opinion love is self sacrificing, caring more about welfare of other person, while infatuation/lust is more selfish/me first. Eg Diego verses James Eglamore on how they acted over object of their affections. Infatuated person if sees no hope of future selfish reward from their "love", eg Diego rejected by Jeanne won't care about their life. James Elgamore likely would in similar situation likely have jumped down and risked his life to save Surma driven by emotions same way a mother would risk life for child, even if he knew she would always reject him. 2 people can be infatuated with each other, yet both selfishly fight to be the one with the life jacket if their romantic cruise ship springs a leak. Love tends to value the actual person, while infatuation tends to have a fantasy ideal and often tries to change "their love" to fit the fantasy. (Love cares about the target and will look for ways to help target become stronger/happier, while infatuation cares about how to change the target to better "please me" even if harms the target) A person who loves may have wrong idea on what is best. Eg Anthony Carter likely loves his daughter, to point where he is willing to risk his life and future to "save her" from what killed her mother. He may fear others would stop him and perhaps harm him. Just as Renard distrusts the forest, Anthony may have his reasons for distrusting the Court and going into hiding and keeping his actions secret. In trying to save is daughters life he may have put her life at risk. |
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icekatze
New Member
Nothing Important
Posts: 22 
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Post by icekatze on Oct 8, 2014 19:58:29 GMT
hi hi
Dude, or chick, whichever you may be, ship... Don't be a creeper. Seriously.
Maybe Kat can use her robo-flesh-crafting powers to just make her own boat and take everyone to safety.
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 8, 2014 20:42:35 GMT
He didn't mention anything about her personality. He only likes her for her looks. Where do you get this from? He just says that he's happy when she's around, but she doesn't recognize his love. And though he says on another page that he thinks she's beautiful, he says nothing about whether that's the only thing he likes about her. Also, it's a little scary that readers aren't seeing this as textbook abusive behavior. This is not a one-sided crush, this is putting your desires over other people's lives. I would like to defend my previous comment about whether or not this situation is romantic. (please please please don't let me start a multiple-page argument...)Before I do, however, let me make one thing clear - what the robot is doing is very wrong: kidnap, reckless behavior, endangerment, and more. I do not at all agree with the Ship's methods. And even though the Ship most likely does not realize that this is wrong (robots in the Gunnerverse think quite differently from humans, and the Ship was likely manipulated by the Seraphs), it still is morally wrong in many ways. However, we also don't know how much of this idea came from the Ship and how much was from the Seraphs (who want Kat here to facilitate the process of Godhood) - it's possible that the Ship will throw itself in harm's way to protect the kids, if it did not know how harmful Zimmy's world can be. Conversely, the Ship could cross a moral event horizon if on an upcoming page it chooses to place its love above everyone's safety, in which case of course this would be abusive. Time will tell... Let's look at the aspects we know about this, and see what we can glean about Ship's 'relationship' with Lindsey: - Ship appears to be happy just to be in Lindsey's company. Good.
- Lindsey is married. Bad.
- Ship loves her from afar but is afraid to talk to her. Ambiguous - it could be construed either as stalking or psuedo-courtly love.
- Ship wishes her to notice him. Also ambiguous - sad and unhealthy, but not abusive. Everyone's felt this way before. Right in the feels.
- Addressing davidm's points: we do not know yet whether this is love or infatuation or something on the sliding scale between them, as said above. Again, this will certainly be tested in the future pages.
Writing this post, I definitely see now how this can be abuse. It could also be similar to a tragic romance, as all of the criteria above also fit. And, though we don't agree with them, we do sympathize with the loveless characters of many tragic romances. Once again, we will need more time to tell. I also had assumed that the Ship was being manipulated, and perhaps did not realize the level of danger it has put everyone in. If this is disproved in following pages, my view of this as romantic will entirely reverse. In fact, there are a multitude of facts that could be revealed which would change my opinion, depending on where Tom goes from here. From this, my conclusions from what we have so far: again, I believe that this is a case of good (or at least not boxbot-level terrible) ends, atrocious means. And quoting fwip, "Love can make you act in strange ways" - for both robots and humans. PS: Though if romances between a robot and a giant crab is 'textbook' abuse, your textbook is interesting  |
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Post by keef on Oct 8, 2014 22:42:20 GMT
I wonder what a merostomatazon of that size eats. Their closest living relatives eat clams, worms, and other invertebrates one might find on the ocean floor - but they don't swim nearly as well as Lindsey. Does Lindsey have a certain culinary fondness for whales? That would make a tasteful bonuspage. I earlier thought the ship was smart enough to know about the size of male merostomatazons, but as he didn't even take the trouble to find out, he deserves to become sushi. Lindsey ending the chapter with the words: "It was worth it." I'm curious if Paz is going to enlighten him. EDIT: I just noticed I account for >1/3 of the posts on this page, and 1/4 of the users. (So far.) Where is everyone?? Work, school, asleep, so many things you can do at 9 in the morning.  And this. Welcome new forumites! |
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Post by N.Tashley on Oct 8, 2014 23:46:19 GMT
The only thing he has mentioned is her looks, so that's my basis. If he likes more about her, he hasn't done anything to show that.
He has already placed love over everyone's safety, he sent them all to Zimmyburg! Remember how messed up Jack was after spending too much time there? It is a dangerous place.
The most generous explanation is that the ship didn't know Zimmydale was dangerous, but then he is sending a boat-full of kids into unknown territory. Both show an apathy to other's safety, as long as he gets what he wants.
And the ship seems to be doing a bit too much ordering around for someone who got roped into something they don't understand. Nothing in his behavior and dialogue implies he is a hapless chump, it shows him as completely in control. I mean, he literally has a captive audience. He has them out in the middle of the ocean, he has eyes and ears all over the ship. The ship is the one in power in this situation and it shows.
You can't love someone from afar. If you never interact with the person, then you don't actually know them. If you don't know them, you can't love them. All you can love is some idealized version of them you have in your head.
I really have no patience for the "tragic lover", who only harms because "they love too much" and "they know not what they do."
Love shouldn't hurt; love should build you up. How is the ship building up Lindsey? How is the ship trying to make her happy? Where is the ship thinking of Lindsey's wants at all?
Compare this situation to James. Would he kidnap children? Would he send them to Zimmyland Heights? Would he harm other people to get Surma to love him?
No he wouldn't, because he actually loved Surma and he's not abusive.
There is no grey line between love and abuse. Period. The two come from different places, and anyone who's lived it can tell the difference. You don't go to hug someone and accidently strangle them; you don't go to kiss someone and accidently bite them; and you don't go to love someone and accidently abuse them.
This is textbook abuse, and it is not something to be making jokes about:
Does your partner:
have a bad and unpredictable temper?
Interrupting a party to force children to make you a body is unpredictable and bad.
act excessively jealous and possessive?
The ship will do whatever he thinks it will take to get Lindsey's love, even kidnapping.
threaten to take your children away or harm them?
Forget threats, the ship as already taken the kids away.
Intimidation – Your abuser may use a variety of intimidation tactics designed to scare you into submission. Such tactics include making threatening looks or gestures, smashing things in front of you, destroying property, hurting your pets, or putting weapons on display. The clear message is that if you don't obey, there will be violent consequences.
link
There is no defense for abuse. Abuse is not confused love. We live in a culture that loves to defend and excuse abuse.
Conflating the two is what kept me in an abusive relationship. It's what keeps so many people in abusive relationships. It seriously needs to stop. I've been lurking for years, but I had to make an account to respond to defenses for the ship.
He's not just sitting around feeling glum that his crush doesn't like him back.
He is kidnaping children.
He is taking hostages.
He is crippling people.
He refuses to take no for an answer.
He doesn't care who gets harmed, so long as he gets what he wants.
He hasn't even bother asking Lindsey how she feels.
Failure to recognize abuse is LITERALLY a life and death matter. People die because those around them can't spot the signs. It doesn't matter if it's a fictional portrayal in a comic, it should still be clear this is abuse.
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keeana
New Member
Bip
Posts: 32
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Post by keeana on Oct 9, 2014 0:19:17 GMT
(Get that ship a whale. Ships love whales.)
Seriously though, it is not healthy to change yourself for other people. The ship has not expressed self-identification as a fleshly being and has not thought this through. Ship should change for shipself.
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Post by davidm on Oct 9, 2014 0:42:58 GMT
A male wolf may love a female wolf without caring much for safety of the deer he brings to feed her. Ship may view "Lindsey" different then humans. Lindsey is large like him, top of the "food chain", he watches the large fish of ocean eat the smaller ones, humans are tiny/less important? (Coyote talks Renard into possibly killing a normal human in order to gain love of Surma... uses idea of Renard godlike, more important than humans, and Surma being part fire elemental would likely seem "more important than humans" as well. Renard might have self sacrificingly "love" Surma in own foolish way despite killing other human in attempt to get her, stupid yes, he regretted later yes.)
Ship may also have a clueless innocence on dangers. Could be argued that Annie was similar, eg Annie's original adventure with Renard to rescue Robot from body turned to paperclips and CPU in a jail/death like state... Annie and Renard could have faced jail or elimination/death by robots in another universe... robots could have pulled out guns/lasers and shot the jailbreakers dead, etc... you break into a human prison or military base and flee like that and you may end up dead.
Love at first sight, etc... love apparently can come from more far away as relationship... James Eglamore may love Annie because she is what is left of Surma... he may never try to have sex with her, he was quick to react when Jones gave him a friendly warning, but at same time he reacted emotional, similar to how a mother or father reacts when child is in danger when Annie faced danger on bridge.
Abusive... we have a whole subculture these days dedicated to a form of "abuse"... BSDM. Sadism, discipline, domination some peoples relationships are consequentially full of this... 50 shades of grey is given out by media as example of spicing up marriage. I personally don't agree with this sort of thing, but judging from success of things like 50 shades of grey, etc... lots "like it this way".
I have farm type animals, seen others with dogs, etc... they sometimes have a pecking order, they establish that pecking order using "violence" and threats of violence. Eg sheep are one of most mild animals and yet they *like* to bang heads with each other. So do llamas, the females every night went though a complex spitting and dominance fight behaviour. Yet at same time, they deeply care about others in herd to point where alpha llama or sheep might risk own life to confront a danger to the herd... a female sheep confront a dog, seen nose damaged and life in danger as result, on youtube videos of buffalo attacking the lion who is hunting them.
Our current societies definitions of "abuse" might seem strange to others such as Renard and forest creatures, people from a different time, etc. Eg we put people in prison for years with other nasty criminals and joke about "Bubba in the shower behind you when you pick up soap", yet think 20 beatings with a cane is abuse/torture. Renard would probably happily take a beating rather than lose months in a cage/jail.
...
IMO one should be careful on how one judges situation to make sure really fair. Eg guy punches a girl when angry... "abusive guy". But what happens if a girl punches a guy if angry? Eg act like a savage in an elevator all sorts of violence against fiance of sister (Beyonce's Sister Punches & Kicks Jay Z) is that similar abuse? Some of the people who likely would think a guy in such a situation should be in jail for months+ for that level of violence, seemed to be defending the violent girl "Jay Z probably deserved it". Are there any calls for Boyonce's sister to be in jail, on probation, registered as dangerous offender, lose her job, etc? (compare to Chris Brown for example)
Similarly another culture that canes someone 20 times, while we instead put in prison for months for same vandalism act... (From a certain perspective the jail may seem much more abusive than the being wacked by a cane... lose much more of precious lifetime behind bars where caning you can "live again" and look after your family in a week, the state does not have to take valuable resources away from social programs that might feed several hungry kids in order to house an inmate for months)
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Annie puts on poor disguise, infiltrates robot prison, rescues Robot. Long time later, the rest of robots still have delusions about this event. IMO too early to tell if ship is evil like Diego or "did evil acts that he regrets later" like Renard, or simply extremely clueless child like the robots who fell for Annie's disguise, or a 5 year old kid who will pick up a rock and throw it at brother.
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Post by sapientcoffee on Oct 9, 2014 1:04:40 GMT
Compare this situation to James. Would he kidnap children? Would he send them to Zimmyland Heights? Would he harm other people to get Surma to love him? No he wouldn't, because he actually loved Surma and he's not abusive. 1) Damn, proboards puts a lot of trash html/bbcode in what I'm guessing are mobile posts. <p></p> and <strong> all over the place. 2) You keep comparing WhaleShip to Eglamore. This is comparing apples and oranges. Eglamore: a) is human b) likely had healthy relationships modeled for him both at home and Court c) understood the context of those relationships d) saw and interacted with the same people on a near daily basis There's a reason I keep saying the obvious thing about robots not being human, because you can't judge them on a human basis. In the GKC world, robots keep to themselves, and the court (except for a few individuals) only interact with them as needed. Then there's the advice that if a robot confesses it likes a human, that human is to mock it in front of its peers. No one since Diego has apparently tried to teach the robots anything - after all, as long as your scissors (security bot/weather center) perform their work, why mess with a good thing? Why make sure that robot understands love instead of mocking it? I think both Paz and Lindsey will help WhaleShip better understand love. After all, Lindsey is a couples therapist (and an adult), she's uniquely qualified to teach how love should work. She and Bud could model how a couple works for the robots. Much better than just-teen Kat currently could. All that said, I agree with Daedalus's previous post. What is happening is wrong. If it's shown in the next pages that WhaleShip knows what it's doing and is fine with putting the kids in danger, then that'll change my opinion and I'll be all for turning Whaleship into paperclips. But right now? With what we've seen of the Court and the robots? I'm willing to give the ship a small benefit of a doubt and see what comes of Paz's conversation. Abusive... we have a whole subculture these days dedicated to a form of "abuse"... BSDM. Sadism, discipline, domination some peoples relationships are consequentially full of this... 50 shades of grey is given out by media as example of spicing up marriage. I personally don't agree with this sort of thing, but judging from success of things like 50 shades of grey, etc... lots "like it this way". Whoa. Those are two wildly, WILDLY different things. "Safe, sane, and consensual" is a common phrase in BDSM circles for a reason - an actual abusive relationship will be NONE of those things. 50 Shades of Grey is in no way an accurate portrayal of a good BDSM relationship. Also, 50 Shades of Grey is wildly popular because "just racy enough" sex sells. |
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 9, 2014 1:13:11 GMT
Less consequential things: 1) Damn, proboards puts a lot of trash html/bbcode in what I'm guessing are mobile posts. <p></p> and <strong> all over the place. True that o_0 it's not a mobile post, but I don't know what happened. Huh. Abusive... we have a whole subculture these days dedicated to a form of "abuse"... BSDM. Sadism, discipline, domination some peoples relationships are consequentially full of this... 50 shades of grey is given out by media as example of spicing up marriage. I personally don't agree with this sort of thing, but judging from success of things like 50 shades of grey, etc... lots "like it this way". Whoa. Those are two wildly, WILDLY different things. "Safe, sane, and consensual" is a common phrase in BDSM circles for a reason - an actual abusive relationship will be NONE of those things. 50 Shades of Grey is in no way an accurate portrayal of a good BDSM relationship. You beat me to making this comment, haha. I am entirely in agreement. This is textbook abuse, and it is not something to be making jokes about I am assuming that this comment^ refers to this: Though if romances between a robot and a giant crab is 'textbook' abuse, your textbook is interesting I did not say this was a joking matter. I just meant that any textbook covering topics like giant crabs and robots must be a funny textbook. It was meant to use humor to defuse the situation - which did not work obviously, and I apologize for confusion. END OF SPOILERThe only thing he has mentioned is her looks, so that's my basis. If he likes more about her, he hasn't done anything to show that. has nothing to do with looks, as far as I can tell. It is a dangerous place...The most generous explanation is that the ship didn't know Zimmydale was dangerous, but then he is sending a boat-full of kids into unknown territory. Both show an apathy to other's safety, as long as he gets what he wants. I had assumed this was covered under 'the means are atrocious'. We're not in disagreement here. And the ship seems to be doing a bit too much ordering around for someone who got roped into something they don't understand. Nothing in his behavior and dialogue implies he is a hapless chump, it shows him as completely in control. I mean, he literally has a captive audience. He has them out in the middle of the ocean, he has eyes and ears all over the ship. The ship is the one in power in this situation and it shows. A complete compendium of literally every word the Ship's said so far: - You will make me flesh, and I will finally win the heart of Lindsey.
- Creator, please make me flesh.
- You can, Creator. Yes! Like that!
Then today's page: - I have admired Lindsey for a long time...
- Every year, when this journey is made, I am beyond happy as she swims next to me, sharing my ocean.
- But what am I to her? A floating shell of glass and metal?
- She does not see me for who I truly am!
- But now, with the new body you will give me, Creator...
- She will truly see me.
The only order-y part whatsoever is the 'you will give me', and I think that's just that the Ship's being optimistic/naïve that Kat will do this out of kindness. Plus, judging from the previous page, she probably would have if Paz were not around. Actually, the way the Ship asked seems immensely respectful.
You can't love someone from afar. If you never interact with the person, then you don't actually know them. If you don't know them, you can't love them. All you can love is some idealized version of them you have in your head. Entirely true, but not applicable here - the Ship has indeed interacted with her over all the other years he's referred to (I assume?) and presumably gotten to know her. He's just never made his romantic feelings clear - possibly because he's shy or embarrassed due to Appendix H etc. Though this is (I repeat) not a positive thing, it's an extremely common thing out here in real life and nobody calls it abuse. (Note: sorry about text size, I dunno what happened there...) (more may be edited in soon, after I finish my work irl sorry) |
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Post by davidm on Oct 9, 2014 1:17:48 GMT
Abusive... we have a whole subculture these days dedicated to a form of "abuse"... BSDM. Sadism, discipline, domination some peoples relationships are consequentially full of this... 50 shades of grey is given out by media as example of spicing up marriage. I personally don't agree with this sort of thing, but judging from success of things like 50 shades of grey, etc... lots "like it this way". Whoa. Those are two wildly, WILDLY different things. "Safe, sane, and consensual" is a common phrase in BDSM circles for a reason - an actual abusive relationship will be NONE of those things. 50 Shades of Grey is in no way an accurate portrayal of a good BDSM relationship. Also, 50 Shades of Grey is wildly popular because "just racy enough" sex sells.
have a bad and unpredictable temper?
act excessively jealous and possessive?
Intimidation – Your abuser may use a variety of intimidation tactics designed to scare you into submission. Such tactics include making threatening looks or gestures, smashing things in front of you, destroying property, hurting your pets, or putting weapons on display. The clear message is that if you don't obey, there will be violent consequences.--- from someone elses list of what supposedly qualifies as Abuse posted in this thread. BSDM often features all the above as *part* of the consenting sex game. ... At same time that some people think BSDM between consenting people is "good", the same people may feel polygamy relationships must stay illegal because "dominate" and potential for "abuse" despite obviously at times "consenting". If "consenting" always means ok, then there are lots of cults where the ringleader is in jail and some of his wives are still fighting to get him free years later. If the polygamy part makes it "wrong" then how about the dominatrix with her many male clients that she whips and chains up as her "slaves"? ... IMO too early to judge ship in long term given how Renard murdered one human to win Surma and attempted to murder Annie. |
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Post by sapientcoffee on Oct 9, 2014 1:19:10 GMT
Less consequential things: 1) Damn, proboards puts a lot of trash html/bbcode in what I'm guessing are mobile posts. <p></p> and <strong> all over the place. True that o_0 it's not a mobile post, but I don't know what happened. Huh. I wonder if it happens when a post is composed in the preview tab instead of the BBCode tab. Let's see what this looks like when I quote it. |
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 9, 2014 1:22:28 GMT
Your post: [quote source="/post/108844/thread" timestamp="1412817550" author="@sapientcoffee"][quote source="/post/108842/thread" timestamp="1412817191" author="@daedalus"]Less consequential things:[spoiler]True that o_0 it's not a mobile post, but I don't know [b]what[/b] happened. Huh.[/spoiler][/quote]I wonder if it happens when a post is composed in the preview tab
instead of
the BBCode tab.
[b]Let's[/b] see what this looks[i] like[/i] when
I quote [b]it.[/b]
[/quote]No, still looks fine in BBCode. I've got nothing. <p> should refer to paragraphs, but I don't know which button here would invoke that... |
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Post by sapientcoffee on Oct 9, 2014 1:23:06 GMT
Whoa. Those are two wildly, WILDLY different things. "Safe, sane, and consensual" is a common phrase in BDSM circles for a reason - an actual abusive relationship will be NONE of those things. 50 Shades of Grey is in no way an accurate portrayal of a good BDSM relationship. Also, 50 Shades of Grey is wildly popular because "just racy enough" sex sells. Does your partner: have a bad and unpredictable temper? act excessively jealous and possessive? Intimidation – Your abuser may use a variety of intimidation tactics designed to scare you into submission. Such tactics include making threatening looks or gestures, smashing things in front of you, destroying property, hurting your pets, or putting weapons on display. The clear message is that if you don't obey, there will be violent consequences. --- from someone elses list of what supposedly qualifies as Abuse. BSDM often features the above as *part* of the sex game. If it's part of the game, then it's consensual and predictable. Look, if you have to hit someone as part of a play/movie, have you abused them? |
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Post by Brother_Spartacus on Oct 9, 2014 1:46:19 GMT
"I love her but she does not see me for who I truly am... so I came up with a convoluted scheme involving kidnapping an entire school year, forcing one of the kids to bend reality so that another kid can turn me into a flesh/metal hybrid! Then she'll see the real me and return my love! "What, she's married? That will not stand in the way of our true love. We truly belong together" I see no flaws in this logic. Ignore the approaching sirens and expect to receive the restraining order in 2 - 3 days. I find the ship's reasoning less romantic and more creepy stalker like. "I must create a robotic fleshing device to carry my love across to Lindsey!" "What an odd thing to say." |
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Post by davidm on Oct 9, 2014 1:47:36 GMT
Does your partner: have a bad and unpredictable temper? act excessively jealous and possessive? Intimidation – Your abuser may use a variety of intimidation tactics designed to scare you into submission. Such tactics include making threatening looks or gestures, smashing things in front of you, destroying property, hurting your pets, or putting weapons on display. The clear message is that if you don't obey, there will be violent consequences. --- from someone elses list of what supposedly qualifies as Abuse. BSDM often features the above as *part* of the sex game. If it's part of the game, then it's consensual and predictable. Look, if you have to hit someone as part of a play/movie, have you abused them? Normally in a movie it is faked, no real bruises or blood or other damage. In real life tend to be blurred lines, people are not always "nice" to people they "love", the same flaws that happen in "marriage of love" also happen in "games". Even kids who consensually get together to play a sport like football can have tempers flair and do nasty stuff to each other that is not really wanted. IMO you are kidding yourself if you think that doesn't commonly happen in "games" that feature savage emotions, in stockholm syndrome a person can in end accept abuse, claim to "want it"... kidnapped persons have ended up defending the violent kidnapper... the kidnapper has not done worse to them than the dominating party in a BSDM game and yet somehow "brainwashed" them. As far as consent goes, the "brainwashed" harem of the cult leader consent to never sleep with their former husbands but only with the cult leader and happily take whatever abuse he dishes out. Ugly human nature can take place without a formal cult, consent is not always such a black and white issue. The forest loves coyote and coyote sometimes "abuses" them... you won't lose your arm or ear if you follow coyotes orders... can work like a "cult"... coyote is after all a "god". Spank coyote and I get angry despite all that Coyote does to me. |
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Post by TBeholder on Oct 9, 2014 2:00:23 GMT
So, what do you suppose the chances are that one of the girls can just say that Lindsey is married, the ship responds "Oh, terribly sorry then, you're free to go," and we see the end of chapter symbol. Pretty low, I bet, but weirder things have happened. And why everyone here assumes that Merostomata can't be polygamous? Granted, the deluded golem doesn't seem to know even the part about extreme sexual dimorphism. I'd expect GC fans not to jump on conclusions so arbitrary, however. Of course, now Lindsey indeed is likely to disapprove of the ship's presumptions and indiscretions either way. So far she seemed to be a very no-nonsense lady, except the taste for harmless surface-racing. |
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Post by sapientcoffee on Oct 9, 2014 2:03:42 GMT
If it's part of the game, then it's consensual and predictable. Look, if you have to hit someone as part of a play/movie, have you abused them? Normally in a movie it is faked, no real bruises or blood or other damage. In real life tend to be blurred lines, people are not always "nice" to people they "love", the same flaws that happen in "marriage of love" also happen in "games". Even kids who consensually get together to play a sport like football can have tempers flair and do nasty stuff to each other that is not really wanted. IMO you are kidding yourself if you think that doesn't commonly happen in "games" that feature savage emotions, in stockholm syndrome a person can in end accept abuse, claim to "want it"... kidnapped persons have ended up defending the violent kidnapper... the kidnapper has not done worse to them than the dominating party in a BSDM game and yet somehow "brainwashed" them. As far as consent goes, a the "brainwashed" harem of the cult leader consent to never sleep with their former husbands but only with the cult leader and happily take whatever abuse he dishes out. Ugly human nature can take place without a formal cult, consent is not always such a black and white issue. The forest loves coyote and coyote sometimes "abuses" them... you won't lose your arm or ear if you follow coyotes orders... can work like a "cult"... coyote is after all a "god". Spank coyote and I get angry despite all that Coyote does to me. You seem to be conflating rather a lot of things that, in my experience, don't have much to do with each other. I've stated my bit though, and will be bowing out of this particular conversation. |
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Post by davidm on Oct 9, 2014 2:16:20 GMT
You seem to be conflating rather a lot of things that, in my experience, don't have much to do with each other. Same argument is made in website forums in africa discussing polygamy (compared to western viewpoint)... whole spectrum of different human experiences with polygamy, BSDM, physical violence, religion/cults, marriage, etc. (In my country supreme court recently ruled polygamy as still illegal because of "potential for abuse"... was a case of a small offshoot of mormons that practised it. Easy to find a wife who says husband is always good/loving to her and his other 2 wives. Africa forums they talk about male lion and his group of mates/wives.) African logic may seem alien to us, and ours to them. (Instead of Kat and Paz, african gunnerkrigg comic might have Jack and his 4 girlfriends who later all become his wives... Annie, Zimmy, Gamma, Jenny... why choose rather than have all 4? In western world we have a subculture with an "open marriage" concept, eg some of popular stars in Hollywood talk about how they are allowed to sleep around with other people than their official mate whenever they want to) Logic of a ship surrounded by sea creatures and big fish eating smaller fish, or Renard and Coyote may be alien to us, Renard did things he regretted later that most of us would see differently to begin with. Edit: www.celebromance.com/10-celebrities-redefining-love-by-practicing-open-relationships/ small example of how even in western world, Lindsay having both Bud and ship at same time would be acceptable with some famous people. Google "open marriage", etc for lots more. |
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Post by goldenknots on Oct 9, 2014 2:52:44 GMT
Failure to recognize abuse is LITERALLY a life and death matter. People die because those around them can't spot the signs. It doesn't matter if it's a fictional portrayal in a comic, it should still be clear this is abuse. This. |
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Post by davidm on Oct 9, 2014 2:58:27 GMT
Failure to recognize abuse is LITERALLY a life and death matter. People die because those around them can't spot the signs. It doesn't matter if it's a fictional portrayal in a comic, it should still be clear this is abuse. This. It is not obviously life and death to Lindsey, it was not risk to Surma when Renard killed a different human for his love because as Coyote said he is "god like, why should mere human stand in way". Abusive of others, racist/speciest, stupid, etc is not abusive of the one you "love". Not saying it is right, but clarifying the crime... is like saying a wolf has "abusive relationship" with mate when he brings her a dead deer to feed her. An SS officer in world war 2 might be perfect husband when he comes home after day job of working the gas chamber. A professional boxer might never hit his wife. It is possible that Renard would never *DREAM* of intentionally hurting Surma, and that ship is similar with Lindsey. (Renard probably expected Surma to be happy when he showed up with his new human body) Of course the ship could be another Diego with Jeanne rather than Renard with Surma, too soon to tell. |
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Oct 9, 2014 3:27:58 GMT
The forest loves coyote and coyote sometimes "abuses" them... you won't lose your arm or ear if you follow coyotes orders... can work like a "cult"... coyote is after all a "god". Spank coyote and I get angry despite all that Coyote does to me. Hey! Don't drag me into your mortal matters! Leave me out of this! Also, Ysengrin would be totally right to be indignant about the abuse he suffered at my paws if, you know, he actually remembered it. |
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Post by davidm on Oct 9, 2014 3:31:00 GMT
The forest loves coyote and coyote sometimes "abuses" them... you won't lose your arm or ear if you follow coyotes orders... can work like a "cult"... coyote is after all a "god". Spank coyote and I get angry despite all that Coyote does to me. Hey! Don't drag me into your mortal matters! Ysengrin would be more rightfully indignant about the abuse he suffered at my paws if, you know, he actually remembered it. I don't think that my actions at all justify others doing similar things (He says with only a bit of hypocrisy)Ysengrin saw the band on Annie's arm, he knew what it meant "no harm will come if you do what coyote says" so he did remember the "lose your arm" sort of thing I gave as example, we don't know how he lost his ear, we have other hints from conversation with Annie as well on how forest has to obey Coyote or else. ... Jones says Coyote does not lie. Coyote says Renard loves Annie. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=817 (Renard may not know Annie any better than Ship knows Lindsey) Jones says Annie put many people in danger because she let her emotions get the best of her www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=823Ysengrin: Do not worry about the binding... (Kindness "encouraged" by Coyote?) Maybe www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=827 ("encouraged" right after "binding" talk, suggests Coyote maybe using methods similar to binding to "encourage" forest creatures) |
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Oct 9, 2014 3:36:50 GMT
Hey! Don't drag me into your mortal matters! Ysengrin would be more rightfully indignant about the abuse he suffered at my paws if, you know, he actually remembered it. I don't think that my actions at all justify others doing similar things (He says with only a bit of hypocrisy)Ysengrin saw the band on Annie's arm, he knew what it meant "no harm will come if you do what coyote says" so he did remember that sort of thing eg "lose your arm or ear", we don't know how he lost his ear. . I still have it around somewhere. |
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Post by Covalent on Oct 9, 2014 3:48:33 GMT
I really hope that sometime soon Bud busts in heroically to save his girl, all muscled and stuff while fanfare is playing.
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