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Post by GK Sierra on Apr 19, 2014 0:44:41 GMT
so while we don't know any specific time, we do know it is drawing ever closer. Believing and knowing are two very different things. First of all, World News Daily is probably one of the worst news sites in existence today. I would believe an astrology column fetched out of a dumpster before I would trust WND. Second, having read through each one of those "prophecies", none of them strike me as remarkable or prescient. All the Israel "prophecy" says is that one day they will become a nation. It didn't specify a date, and the WND article is a perfect example of an apologist trying to connect the dots ex-post-facto. "the Jews were set free from their captivity in the year 538 B.C.E. The year 538 B.C.E, therefore becomes the base year with which we begin our calculations..."He arbitrarily sets down a start year and then "does some calculations" to arrive at... oh my gosh! May 14th, 1948, it's a miracle, praise G-d! Once you start to look through, every other so-called "prophecy" follows a similar pattern. 1. There are several mundane ways in which a prediction of the future can be fulfilled: 1. Retrodiction. The "prophecy" can be written or modified after the events fulfilling it have already occurred. 2. Vagueness. The prophecy can be worded in such a way that people can interpret any outcome as a fulfillment. Nostradomus's prophecies are all of this type. Vagueness works particularly well when people are religiously motivated to believe the prophecies. 3. Inevitability. The prophecy can predict something that is almost sure to happen, such as the collapse of a city. Since nothing lasts forever, the city is sure to fall someday. If it has not, it can be said that according to prophecy, it will. 4. Denial. One can claim that the fulfilling events occurred even if they have not. Or, more commonly, one can forget that the prophecy was ever made. 5. Self-fulfillment. A person can act deliberately to satisfy a known prophecy. There are no prophecies in the Bible that cannot easily fit into one or more of those categories. 2. In biblical times, prophecies were not simply predictions. They were warnings of what could or would happen if things did not change. They were meant to influence people's behavior. If the people heeded the prophecy, the events would not come to pass; Jonah 3 gives an example. A fulfilled prophecy was a failed prophecy, because it meant people did not heed the warning. 3. The Bible also contains failed prophecies, in the sense that things God said would happen did not (Skeptic's Annotated Bible n.d.). For example: * Joshua said that God would, without fail, drive out the Jebusites and Canaanites, among others (Josh. 3:9-10). But those tribes were not driven out (Josh. 15:63, 17:12-13). * Ezekiel said Egypt would be made an uninhabited wasteland for forty years (29:10-14), and Nebuchadrezzar would plunder it (29:19-20). Neither happened. Huzzah! how many internets have I received? Condense your multi-post spree into one and fix your quotes and I will consider giving you half an internet. Bring me back some real hard-hitting support for your statements and I will give you the whole baker's dozen. |
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Post by louisxiv on Apr 19, 2014 10:44:32 GMT
So there's been some discussion already about the raven-like symbol below the shaft and ... mystery bulb ... of the arrow. But what of the sun-like symbol off the end of the forked arrowhead? It seems familiar, but I haven't been able to place it exactly yet. Does it match anything we've seen before? There is something a bit like it – an arc with spikes rather than a disc and spikes – on p498. And a symbolic sun on p821 and p488, possibly others. |
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Post by descoladavirus on Apr 19, 2014 15:10:10 GMT
I think I'm going to take another break from the forums. This real world religious debate via forumspam is making my skin crawl.
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Post by freeformline on Apr 19, 2014 18:46:31 GMT
Also, anyone here read Skin Deep? Changing the subject? I heartily approve! |
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 19, 2014 19:35:06 GMT
On a semi-related note, do we know what the approximate timeline is between Jeanne and Annie? I just realized I didn't actually know how long she's been trapped down there. A few hundred years? A thousand? If robot numbers are any indication, it's been 12 "generations" of the Seraph model, however long those lifecycles last... Both are pretty much arbitrary and not intrinsically linked, given that those are half-golem robots. If the comic is set in "present day" and the Court was founded around 1715 (guessing by fashion and by that eclipse-thing on that one page) Where's that "eclipse thing"? Fashion may be somewhat more reliable, though. I think I'm going to take another break from the forums. This real world religious debate via forumspam is making my skin crawl. I didn't notice any religious debates. Only rather half assed trolling, the only catch of which was superfluous ad hominem addressed toward a legal-fiction type entity, followed by spherical bull fighting in vacuum. You're just too optimistic.  |
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Post by warrl on Apr 20, 2014 0:10:07 GMT
I think I'm going to take another break from the forums. This real world religious debate via forumspam is making my skin crawl. Two useful tools: 1) Above a message, on the right, there's a gear symbol with a down-arrow. Click the down-arrow and you'll see that one of the options is "Report Post". 2) Click on the username on the left of a message. You'll get a screen with a bit of info about that user. There's another gear and down-arrow on the right. Click the down-arrow and you'll see that one of the options is "Block Member". It leads to another screen with some options (look them over, the defaults are a bit odd). |
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Post by smurfton on Apr 20, 2014 0:41:27 GMT
So back to the arrow, I can see the raven, but don't know what Raven represents. Anyone mind telling me?
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Post by freeformline on Apr 20, 2014 1:44:31 GMT
The raven appears to be associated with the Steadman person. I'm not clear what its significance is beyond that.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 20, 2014 2:11:50 GMT
On a semi-related note, do we know what the approximate timeline is between Jeanne and Annie? I just realized I didn't actually know how long she's been trapped down there. A few hundred years? A thousand? If robot numbers are any indication, it's been 12 "generations" of the Seraph model, however long those lifecycles last... Both are pretty much arbitrary and not intrinsically linked, given that those are half-golem robots. If the comic is set in "present day" and the Court was founded around 1715 (guessing by fashion and by that eclipse-thing on that one page) Where's that "eclipse thing"? Fashion may be somewhat more reliable, though. Is Proboards dorking my links again? I thought it had quit. Perhaps it is due for more parody. The possible eclipse is on this page in the form of a blindfolded sun that shows the founders of the Court heading into the Wood. That blindfolded sun could mean several things, like self-deception, but an eclipse is the most common contemporary interpretation In My Humble Opinion. I was trying to link to the post here but I think I first mentioned this spec here.And of course this all depends on the history of the world in the Gunnerverse being a reasonably close parallel of that in our world. Being non-conformists they were more likely to have fashions that were more liberated (therefore more advanced) than the rest of the world so people might want to take that into consideration. Assuming the author thought of that. |
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 20, 2014 5:56:45 GMT
Not conclusive, but fairly likely, yes. Two useful tools: 1) Above a message, on the right, there's a gear symbol [...] You'll get a screen with a bit of info about that user. There's another gear and down-arrow on the right. Not seeing either - Is Proboards dorking my links again? I thought it had quit. Perhaps it is due for more parody. The whole thing is more buggy than a bad motel. |
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freeman
Full Member
That 70's Coyote!
Posts: 242
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Post by freeman on Apr 20, 2014 7:35:23 GMT
Both are pretty much arbitrary and not intrinsically linked, given that those are half-golem robots. Where's that "eclipse thing"? Fashion may be somewhat more reliable, though. Is Proboards dorking my links again? I thought it had quit. Perhaps it is due for more parody. The possible eclipse is on this page in the form of a blindfolded sun that shows the founders of the Court heading into the Wood. That blindfolded sun could mean several things, like self-deception, but an eclipse is the most common contemporary interpretation In My Humble Opinion. I was trying to link to the post here but I think I first mentioned this spec here.And of course this all depends on the history of the world in the Gunnerverse being a reasonably close parallel of that in our world. Being non-conformists they were more likely to have fashions that were more liberated (therefore more advanced) than the rest of the world so people might want to take that into consideration. Assuming the author thought of that. Well, this total eclipse above England in 1715 is a good candidate, and also gives a good approxiamation of the location of the Court! Apparently this one eclipse was "magnificent" with no recorded match, as all the other total eclipses have been very brief or in Scotland.  |
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Shire
Junior Member
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Post by Shire on Apr 20, 2014 22:37:08 GMT
Hmm, that's interesting. In that same year was the Jacobite rising of 1715, which could have been the war that the proto-Gunnerkriggers were fleeing.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 21, 2014 8:02:12 GMT
Hmm, that's interesting. In that same year was the Jacobite rising of 1715, which could have been the war that the proto-Gunnerkriggers were fleeing. Aye but I don't think it was quite clear they were fleeing a war so maybe more importantly the eclipse was a bit after the Occasional Conformity act. Fun factoid: There were generations of unrest in Birmingham around then (see those links to my previous posts for handy links to even more obscure but interesting stuff). |
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Post by keef on Apr 21, 2014 8:27:21 GMT
Tom insisted on formspring the exact date was not important, but I guess you guys are getting close. |
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Post by todd on Apr 21, 2014 10:40:45 GMT
I think we should remember two things:
1. We don't know whether that astronomical event in the flashback was a real historical one, or something that Tom made up for the needs of the story.
2. We don't know whether the people of the Court really were refugees, or if that was just what they said. (I still get the suspicion that they were running towards something - like the Bismuth Seed - rather than away from it.)
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Post by Lightice on Apr 21, 2014 12:58:23 GMT
It's a classic game of pick and choose enough numbers, mix and match them until they form something that looks meaningful, and present them as an infallible prophecy. Christians and Jews and others have been doing that for centuries, too. I'm sure that if you take a fine enough a comb through the Bible's dates you can predict anything from the fall of the Roman Empire to 9/11 with the same "accuracy". But get an accomplished theologican, historian and mathematician together and they show a dozen alternate meanings that are all equally valid and equally nonsensical. |
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Post by aaroncampbell on Apr 21, 2014 15:14:25 GMT
Tom insisted on formspring the exact date was not important, but I guess you guys are getting close.
Great posts on the dating; I hadn't caught the original thread about the eclipse idea so that's a fascinating line of thought.
Dating via fashion is an interesting theory, but I had another thought -- architecture. I looked at a couple of these older pages, which were "the last remnants of human buildings from before the divide" according to Ysengrin. It's a mix of Norman (the rounded arches) and Gothic (the pointed arches). Here's another page with a nice closeup of a Norman arch. You can tell from these pages that the Norman designs were older pieces of construction and the Gothic newer, given the aging of the stones and the joins in the masonry, and that makes sense. Norman was the older of the two styles, and it developed into Gothic in 13th century in England.
It's hard to tell for sure, but it could be that the Court and Forest split somewhere around 1200 AD. (That still doesn't tell us how long until the Annan Waters were made, nor the time until the bridge was made. But still, it's a start.)
Busy times, the 13th century. I wonder where Jones was? Jerusalem? Constantinople? Wandering about central Asia with the Mongol horde? Tom, if you read this, it sure would be fascinating to see a bonus collection of Jones' travels. And for the record, as soon as I wrote that, this came to mind and I immediately started laughing as I tried to picture Jones. 
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Post by KMar on Apr 21, 2014 15:37:08 GMT
Tom insisted on formspring the exact date was not important, but I guess you guys are getting close.
Great posts on the dating; I hadn't caught the original thread about the eclipse idea so that's a fascinating line of thought.
Dating via fashion is an interesting theory, but I had another thought -- architecture. I looked at a couple of these older pages, which were "the last remnants of human buildings from before the divide" according to Ysengrin. It's a mix of Norman (the rounded arches) and Gothic (the pointed arches). Here's another page with a nice closeup of a Norman arch. You can tell from these pages that the Norman designs were older pieces of construction and the Gothic newer, given the aging of the stones and the joins in the masonry, and that makes sense. Norman was the older of the two styles, and it developed into Gothic in 13th century in England.
It's hard to tell for sure, but it could be that the Court and Forest split somewhere around 1200 AD. (That still doesn't tell us how long until the Annan Waters were made, nor the time until the bridge was made. But still, it's a start.)
Busy times, the 13th century. I wonder where Jones was? Jerusalem? Constantinople? Wandering about central Asia with the Mongol horde? Tom, if you read this, it sure would be fascinating to see a bonus collection of Jones' travels. And for the record, as soon as I wrote that, this came to mind and I immediately started laughing as I tried to picture Jones.
On the other hand, even if those buildings were originally built in 13th century, they might have been already centuries old even when the divide happened; their existence might hint that the humans of the Court and the Forest people lived together for quite long time, not that they were left to crumble into ruins soon after they were finished. And there's also a possibility they might be faux-Norman / Gothic, mimicking an older style despite being built in more recent times. In my opinion, the clothing style is a more reliable indicator. Of course, in the Court the time might not flow in a as linear and orderly fashion as we except. |
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Post by aaroncampbell on Apr 21, 2014 19:13:00 GMT
On the other hand, even if those buildings were originally built in 13th century, they might have been already centuries old even when the divide happened; their existence might hint that the humans of the Court and the Forest people lived together for quite long time, not that they were left to crumble into ruins soon after they were finished. And there's also a possibility they might be faux-Norman / Gothic, mimicking an older style despite being built in more recent times. In my opinion, the clothing style is a more reliable indicator. Of course, in the Court the time might not flow in a as linear and orderly fashion as we except. Oh yes, good point -- the buildings certainly could have been built later than that period. I was just establishing an early bounds on the division of Court and Forest. ... Hmm, unless of course one posits that the Court developed the Gothic architectural style, which is a fascinating theory! It would certainly be an easy possibility in the Gunnerverse, and I think I'm going to subscribe to the idea because I don't like to think of the Court as "all bad all the time." Dang, now that means I still have no idea what the timeline is like. But at least I got a fun new "fact" to throw out there: Gothic architecture arose not in France, but in Gunnerkrigg Court before the division of Court and Forest! More theory (because why not?): After the division, those disillusioned with both Court and Forest wandered back to the outside world. They made their way to France and started building there, from whence the style spread. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 21, 2014 21:38:13 GMT
Being "non-conformists" (heh, forgive me for abusing the term) I figure the same dating problem exists with architecture as with fashion. These people are not all penniless refugees; instead they're a mixed group looking for a place to unmoor themselves from tradition and social pressure to conform. Since some of the founders have money they could borrow from various styles and build as they wish, others may not have any money and might have to rebuild whatever ruins exist on the site, or I suppose fell trees to clear fields and make cabins like a new settlement, which may have started the divide in a tiny way. But I believe 'twas Q'd to T Formsprung that the founders did have a variety of spiritual beliefs, something that would have set them against the existing conformist external society, but that this was abandoned as they discovered that technology could work apart from the etheric later on. |
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Post by diztrakted on Apr 24, 2014 15:46:47 GMT
I wonder how they knew exactly how to make such a thing. Diego's skill was for his robots. It seems a strange step from robot building to creating a weapon capable of tearing through the ROTD (even assuming the living at that time knew about the existence of the ROTD). On this topic and in response to everyone talking about it in this thread: I'm surprised that anyone thinks that Diego was not capable of making this thing on his own. Here's a few arguments I've thought of supporting it being Diego's creation alone: 1. It's totally Diego's field! He created the robots, which through advanced understanding of both technology and the ether, manage to replicate consciousness through technological means. Making an arrow that messes with the ether using related technology does not seem like such a stretch to me. 2. To destroy is far easier to create. In regards to the damage it caused the ROTD and the other departments, it should be a far easier task to do that than to, say, create the robots in the first place. It might not exactly have been his field of expertise, so collateral damage is to be EXPECTED, and was likely not intentional. 3. Adding another influence to the creation of the device seems needlessly complicated. The bird on the arrow is already an allusion to Steadman, who was explicitly involved, need it be an allusion to another allusion? I'm calling on Occam's Razor here. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jul 25, 2014 8:46:14 GMT
also 'then device you mean' Tom's comic is great and all, but proofreading should have caught that. It's not the first typo, either. Two more in the last week... There's nothing as surreal as googling to find an old post related to the current topics (specifically eclipses), and finding you were the one who started that thread. |
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