[1340] You just can't beat a good scary story!

[sidhekin]

Apr 14, 2014 13:27:31 GMT ctso74 said:

Apr 14, 2014 7:19:21 GMT Eversist said:

Oh, poor Mort.

I don't know. He's left his "mark on the world" through Kat and Annie.

And Paz. Don't forget Paz!

[warrl]

Ankou possibly was called away on business.

Or he could be just off the edge of the screen.

As for the overall situation:

* The initial cheesy-Halloween appearance that we saw was based on Mort's kids'-cartoon-ghost self-image. And that's what Kat saw.

* Annie obviously immediately saw something different from what Kat saw. She would have been familiar with cheesy Halloween decorations from, for example, nurses' stations and the pediatric ward at Good Hope Hospital. But she was impressed.

* And at that point, the RotD/residents had no known reason to present two different illusions (if they are capable of doing so) to the two girls.

* So, there is a "reality": a fairly stable default appearance that is seen when nobody is making an effort to cause a viewer to see something different, or when that effort fails.

* Speculation: a being's "reality" is his self-image. So Mort's "real" form is a kids'-cartoon ghost. (Kids'-cartoon ghosts can be scary, because the script says so, through simple means that in real life are not very scary - he needed lessons in scaring real people. It fits. Which doesn't necessarily mean it's right.)

* We don't know what Mort saw. He's a younger kid who would be happy with the cheesy-Halloween decor, not annoyed like Kat was. But whatever he saw, he wouldn't be awed like Annie was because he's been around it for decades. On the other hand, it was sufficiently consistent with what Annie saw that their mostly-vague comments on it didn't demonstrate any incompatibilities.

* Annie currently (and automatically) sees through RotD illusions to that "reality" - for the setting, not necessarily for beings, and perhaps only when she is herself in the RotD. A couple years ago she couldn't automatically see through Mort's illusions while in the physical world, but she's gotten a lot of experience and training since then so we don't know about that ability now.

* But if Annie could automatically see through RotD illusions for beings, she would have seen through the caseworker's vampire illusion as well. (He took it off as soon as he saw she was there on proper RotD business rather than a random visitor - which says to me he isn't attached to it, it isn't his self-image.)

* The differences in when they all see the librarian don't fit with all this. Also note that Kat sees a "guy" while Annie sees a "creature"; and in the Special Cases room it appears that Kat is getting angry at him while Annie is somewhat frightened. Perhaps he is himself a special case (of a different sort) and isn't completely bound by the "normal" rules. (Or perhaps the "normal" rules are "please behave this way" rather than "laws of nature". Or perhaps I'm wrong on a lot of stuff.)

[descoladavirus]

Apr 14, 2014 14:59:43 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

I think reality in the Gunnerverse is on the sliding scale. We're very close to the ether here. It's not surprising that things are quite fluid. Farther from the ether would be the Court, where things appear stable but avenues of etheric science are available that are not available elsewhere. Farther still from the ether would be the mundane world where ghosts would be (presumably) more rare and rarely kill people with swords.

If there really is no deeper purpose to the haunting than just people's ghosts wanting to make their marks instead of keeping etheric channels open I'll be a bit disappointed in that segment of my longstanding complex flow/layering theory being shot down... but it may be the case that the RotD is just an overlay and this dude doesn't know his real place in the cosmic design...

Where would Zimmy's inner city and perception fit in I wonder?

[Per]

Zimmingham is an invasive perceptual overlay that is "as real as you let it" and where the time scale is very compressed. (RotD is similar at a glance, but more benign than malign.) It may ultimately be an effect rather than a cause, but having been created, it can in turn create. (Mort left the RotD to be a "real" ghost.) Unreal things in it can manifest in the real world by insinuating themselves into the beliefs of those who enter. (A vampire can manifest in London for reasons that may or may not be similar.)

[King Mir]

Apr 14, 2014 7:37:11 GMT philman said:

Kat could see the psychopomps as they really are, when they chose to reveal themselves to her, because they are real.

Except, psychopomps DO NOT EXIST. It is the either that makes them real, and the either that makes RotD illusions real.

Now there are a few differences between RotD illusions, and psychopomps:
1)psychopomps have more believers than individual ghosts do.
2)RotD intends to deceive and scare
3)RotD are ex humans. Psychopomps are (except Annie) mythic creatures, born of the either.
4)RotD are less trained in manipulating the either than Psychopomps are, perhaps less than even Annie.
5)RotD illusions are intentional and thought out by the perpetrator. Mythic creatures don't choose their mythic species.

And there may be others. Probably, one or more of these is what makes Kat see the RotD as smoke and mirrors, but still see psychopomps as scary monsters.

[melkior]

Here's my theory: Annie is a being partly born of the ether, therefore she is more likely to be influenced by what it wants to present itself as. Mort became an etheric being so he's in the same boat with Annie.

Kat is fully human and also has a technical and realistic mind, so she's less influenced by the illusions which the RotD presents to the minds of those who see it.

So robe-guy probably really was a guy in a robe, but to etheric beings, he appears like a giant horror creature.

Kat is practically immune to etheric illusions while Annie isn't.

The psycopomps probably aren't a deliberate illusion created by the ether, even though they're etheric beings, therefore Kat sees them as they "really" are.

[descoladavirus]

Apr 15, 2014 4:16:55 GMT King Mir said:

Apr 14, 2014 7:37:11 GMT philman said:

Kat could see the psychopomps as they really are, when they chose to reveal themselves to her, because they are real.

Except, psychopomps DO NOT EXIST. It is the either that makes them real, and the either that makes RotD illusions real.

Now there are a few differences between RotD illusions, and psychopomps:
1)psychopomps have more believers than individual ghosts do.
2)RotD intends to deceive and scare
3)RotD are ex humans. Psychopomps are (except Annie) mythic creatures, born of the either.
4)RotD are less trained in manipulating the either than Psychopomps are, perhaps less than even Annie.
5)RotD illusions are intentional and thought out by the perpetrator. Mythic creatures don't choose their mythic species.

And there may be others. Probably, one or more of these is what makes Kat see the RotD as smoke and mirrors, but still see psychopomps as scary monsters.

Apr 15, 2014 4:48:38 GMT melkior said:

Here's my theory: Annie is a being partly born of the ether, therefore she is more likely to be influenced by what it wants to present itself as. Mort became an etheric being so he's in the same boat with Annie.

Kat is fully human and also has a technical and realistic mind, so she's less influenced by the illusions which the RotD presents to the minds of those who see it.

So robe-guy probably really was a guy in a robe, but to etheric beings, he appears like a giant horror creature.

Kat is practically immune to etheric illusions while Annie isn't.

The psycopomps probably aren't a deliberate illusion created by the ether, even though they're etheric beings, therefore Kat sees them as they "really" are.

Is it so hard to accept that the Psychopomps might not be an illusion? That is to say, they are really how they appear? I mean even if they are like Coyote created from the minds of the people they shepherd into the ether, at some point they began to exist, and that existence makes them real enough to do the tasks they exist to do.

[Ophel]

I have nothing to add in this discussion.

...Except for this.



Surpurrise kitteh, motherfluffer.

[descoladavirus]

I'd prefer my soul being shepherded by the Cat-Bus

[melkior]

Apr 15, 2014 20:26:46 GMT descoladavirus said:

I'd prefer my soul being shepherded by the Cat-Bus

Catbus makes everything better! (But you'll only see him when you're very young)

[imaginaryfriend]

Apr 14, 2014 19:20:30 GMT warrl said:

* The initial cheesy-Halloween appearance that we saw was based on Mort's kids'-cartoon-ghost self-image. And that's what Kat saw.

* Annie obviously immediately saw something different from what Kat saw. She would have been familiar with cheesy Halloween decorations from, for example, nurses' stations and the pediatric ward at Good Hope Hospital. But she was impressed.

* Speculation: a being's "reality" is his self-image. So Mort's "real" form is a kids'-cartoon ghost. (Kids'-cartoon ghosts can be scary, because the script says so, through simple means that in real life are not very scary - he needed lessons in scaring real people. It fits. Which doesn't necessarily mean it's right.)

* We don't know what Mort saw. He's a younger kid who would be happy with the cheesy-Halloween decor, not annoyed like Kat was. But whatever he saw, he wouldn't be awed like Annie was because he's been around it for decades. On the other hand, it was sufficiently consistent with what Annie saw that their mostly-vague comments on it didn't demonstrate any incompatibilities.

* Annie currently (and automatically) sees through RotD illusions to that "reality" - for the setting, not necessarily for beings, and perhaps only when she is herself in the RotD. A couple years ago she couldn't automatically see through Mort's illusions while in the physical world, but she's gotten a lot of experience and training since then so we don't know about that ability now.

* But if Annie could automatically see through RotD illusions for beings, she would have seen through the caseworker's vampire illusion as well. (He took it off as soon as he saw she was there on proper RotD business rather than a random visitor - which says to me he isn't attached to it, it isn't his self-image.)

* The differences in when they all see the librarian don't fit with all this. Also note that Kat sees a "guy" while Annie sees a "creature"; and in the Special Cases room it appears that Kat is getting angry at him while Annie is somewhat frightened. Perhaps he is himself a special case (of a different sort) and isn't completely bound by the "normal" rules. (Or perhaps the "normal" rules are "please behave this way" rather than "laws of nature". Or perhaps I'm wrong on a lot of stuff.)

What if Kat sees cheesy Halloween decor because she doesn't really believe in all this undead stuff but she does believe in death, which is why she freaked when she met Ankou? Note Antimony does not see cheesy Halloween decor but something like Hollywood movie stages after the Vampire-ghost does his reveal. I figure this is because she still imagines these things on a grand scale (compared to Kat, see here) like her POV when the chapter started, just fake.

To add an additional layer of complexity the Vamp-ghost in panel two has trouble getting out of the coffin because of his short legs and other limitations of the body he has when he was alive. The ether is making that "real" it seems, though it is obviously not possibly presenting him with "real" limitations. Heh. Ponder that one awhile, genteel forum-goers.

Apr 15, 2014 7:19:40 GMT descoladavirus said:

Apr 15, 2014 4:16:55 GMT King Mir said:

Except, psychopomps DO NOT EXIST. It is the either that makes them real, and the either that makes RotD illusions real.

Now there are a few differences between RotD illusions, and psychopomps:
1)psychopomps have more believers than individual ghosts do.
2)RotD intends to deceive and scare
3)RotD are ex humans. Psychopomps are (except Annie) mythic creatures, born of the either.
4)RotD are less trained in manipulating the either than Psychopomps are, perhaps less than even Annie.
5)RotD illusions are intentional and thought out by the perpetrator. Mythic creatures don't choose their mythic species.

And there may be others. Probably, one or more of these is what makes Kat see the RotD as smoke and mirrors, but still see psychopomps as scary monsters.

Apr 15, 2014 4:48:38 GMT melkior said:

Here's my theory: Annie is a being partly born of the ether, therefore she is more likely to be influenced by what it wants to present itself as. Mort became an etheric being so he's in the same boat with Annie.

Kat is fully human and also has a technical and realistic mind, so she's less influenced by the illusions which the RotD presents to the minds of those who see it.

So robe-guy probably really was a guy in a robe, but to etheric beings, he appears like a giant horror creature.

Kat is practically immune to etheric illusions while Annie isn't.

The psycopomps probably aren't a deliberate illusion created by the ether, even though they're etheric beings, therefore Kat sees them as they "really" are.

Is it so hard to accept that the Psychopomps might not be an illusion? That is to say, they are really how they appear? I mean even if they are like Coyote created from the minds of the people they shepherd into the ether, at some point they began to exist, and that existence makes them real enough to do the tasks they exist to do.

They could have existed before they were created, in that case! That is one of the more interesting things that may be going on here, actually, that the 'pomps may be more than illusions covering chutes and the gods/goddesses may be more than overlays on waves in the ether.