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Post by warrl on Jan 10, 2014 14:58:04 GMT
Remember, the Court did not directly kill Jeanne. They lowered her into the ravine, killed her lover, and abandoned her.
It probably took well over a week for her to die. (It would be about a week with no water, but she was next to a river.)
The robots had plenty of time to do something. They were programmed to love her, so they would have done something. Except their creator (presumably) ordered them not to.
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Post by aaroncampbell on Jan 10, 2014 15:01:38 GMT
Time to play the devil's advocate, but she's down there for a reason, Carver. The court had used a life to keep the forest's denizens away from Gunnerkrigg, and we only have what appears to be the "forest" side of the story and Jeanne's side of the story. Who knows what other reasons could be revealed when the court's story is put in a more open light? Also I still think this is an awful idea. Eglamore, stop them. Whatever the reason may be, it doesn't justify killing two people (the green one and Jeanne) and trapping the soul of (at least) one. It's time for Jeanne not to be an agonizing victim anymore. If it destroys the court because they have to rely on methods like this, the court should be destroyed. I just had a really odd thought. What if Jeanne isn't trapped? I mean, clearly she's down there and destroying most anything that comes by (which we're all guessing is what the Court wanted her to be doing down there), but what if the arrow didn't really do anything to her? What if she's only persisting as a "terror ghost" in this world due to the power of her own anger at the Court for what they did to her lover? (I like the "rage ghost" comment someone else made; in my mind that label seems to fit her even better.) If this theory is in fact the case, then it raises several interesting questions: - It clearly means she won't want to be "put to rest" and taken to the ether. If/when she finds out what Annie's intentions are, won't that simply make her more dangerous rather than less?
- If the arrow didn't do anything to Jeanne, what did it do? Clearly it was something etheric. I wonder -- perhaps it killed her lover physically, but trapped his spirit in that little bottle-like component, so he can't go back to the ether. Maybe that's why Jeanne's so angry, and why she chose to stay behind as well?
- If that theory is true, then they need to figure out how to get to the arrow, how to release his spirit, and who his spirit guide should be -- all without being killed by Jeanne in the process. That could be complicated she's not really bound there, as I posited in my original theory, so taking the arrow to a safe place to work on it might not be the clear-cut option it sounds like.
(Sorry for all the guesses; this should probably be in wild speculation, except that the kids themselves are speculating on this page so it seems to fit.) |
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Post by Deepbluediver on Jan 10, 2014 15:45:58 GMT
This still has bad news written all over it. It's seems like kind of a gamble that Jean will want to peacefully move on instead of, y'know, seeking revenge or something.
Gang of Meddling Kids: Hooray Mister Spirit, you're free!
Terror-Ghost: F-free? I've been trapped for so long.
GMK: Yeah, but we broke the spell and let you out!
TG: Yes...YES! I have longed for this day!
GMK: Yaaaaaaaay!
TG: Now the skies will weep blood and all humanity will suffer!
GMK: Yaaa- wait, what?
TG: Well, yeah, I mean I was trapped down there because I'm the ghost of a serial killer; didn't you do the research?
GMK: Well, not really; we just kind of ignored out teachers and parents cause they're boring, and we think we know better anyway.
TG: Ah, well, honest mistake....I'm still gonna torture you all horribly though.
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gary
Full Member
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Post by gary on Jan 10, 2014 16:09:51 GMT
The ammount of gunnerkrigg readers who are adamantly against freeing someone enslaved for eternity is somewhat disturbing to me, tbh.
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Post by eyemyself on Jan 10, 2014 16:10:57 GMT
Whatever the reason may be, it doesn't justify killing two people (the green one and Jeanne) and trapping the soul of (at least) one. It's time for Jeanne not to be an agonizing victim anymore. If it destroys the court because they have to rely on methods like this, the court should be destroyed. I just had a really odd thought. What if Jeanne isn't trapped? I mean, clearly she's down there and destroying most anything that comes by (which we're all guessing is what the Court wanted her to be doing down there), but what if the arrow didn't really do anything to her? What if she's only persisting as a "terror ghost" in this world due to the power of her own anger at the Court for what they did to her lover? (I like the "rage ghost" comment someone else made; in my mind that label seems to fit her even better.) If this theory is in fact the case, then it raises several interesting questions: - It clearly means she won't want to be "put to rest" and taken to the ether. If/when she finds out what Annie's intentions are, won't that simply make her more dangerous rather than less?
- If the arrow didn't do anything to Jeanne, what did it do? Clearly it was something etheric. I wonder -- perhaps it killed her lover physically, but trapped his spirit in that little bottle-like component, so he can't go back to the ether. Maybe that's why Jeanne's so angry, and why she chose to stay behind as well?
- If that theory is true, then they need to figure out how to get to the arrow, how to release his spirit, and who his spirit guide should be -- all without being killed by Jeanne in the process. That could be complicated she's not really bound there, as I posited in my original theory, so taking the arrow to a safe place to work on it might not be the clear-cut option it sounds like.
(Sorry for all the guesses; this should probably be in wild speculation, except that the kids themselves are speculating on this page so it seems to fit.) I like your line of reasoning. I am also leaning towards the idea the the arrow was designed to do something to Jeanne's lover and whatever unknown purpose it serves his death and his spirit are an integral part of it. Things we know for certain: 1. Jeanne did not know she was going into the ravine to die. She went willingly thinking she was going to freedom. We see her sending letters into the forest to coordinate with green dude and looking hopeful when he starts to swim towards her. She clearly thinks the court is allowing her to leave and join him in the forest up until the arrow-device takes him down. 2. Jeanne describes what happened as her body being " ensnared" by the green light from the arrow that killed her lover. This might imply that she was trapped by some etheric force from the arrow or it might be metaphorical... she couldn't leave because of her deep love for green dude who is now dead on the bottom of the river at the hands of those she thought were helping her join him. Whether by choice or by compulsion she sees herself as the sentinel of the waters and says to Parley that her experiences as a "coddled child of that damn place" are a "luxury afforded by my death." Seems to imply that she resents to duty of guarding the waters. 3. Those responsible for planning this scheme on the court side wanted to cover it up. The order was given to have all records of what was done destroyed. (They failed, clearly, since there is a robot with a recording of the events and Jeanne's memory lives on in all court robots.) Things we don't know: 1. What did the arrow do to green dude? Is his spirit also trapped in the ravine? 2. Are Jeanne's activities confined to killing anything that attempts to cross the river from the forest? How often does she turn back potential infiltrators? 3. Does anyone on the court side (aside from our pals and the robots) still know about Jeanne and what she does to protect the court? Was the secret of her existence perhaps passed on by word of mouth from one headmaster to the next? |
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Post by TBeholder on Jan 10, 2014 16:12:22 GMT
Either way, the obvious solution would be a double burial at the other shore. Either where Jeanne was heading, or even better aside, but in sight of the bridge.
This would also solve most practical problem, because if the Mediums get to do it their own way, it probably will be agonizingly awkward to raise related issues ever after. For either side. Sure, 'Grin and company didn't kill them, but it still looks like they actually didn't care much about what happened to one of their own (and/or possibly grossly misrepresented it without good enough reasons).
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gary
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Post by gary on Jan 10, 2014 16:22:53 GMT
If the court didnt intend to enslave jeannie it's something of a coincidence that the court wanted to fortify the river and ended up doing exactly what they wanted to do by accident.
Her ghost does exacly what the court wanted from this plan so I assume it worked. She's an etheric land mine, basically, and like all land mines she remains there even after her military use is over. (Like annie says the court-forest relationship now seems a very different to the rpe bridge early seperation days when jeannie and her lover were murdered. There's a great many tragic things about jeannie, including the way her fate was orchestrated by her supposed friends but the fact that there's now a bridge and tests and honest relationships between the sides she's meant to seperate and she's still trapped in agony is possibly the worst of it).
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Post by Per on Jan 10, 2014 16:36:00 GMT
The road to hell is paved with the good intentions of freeing Jeanne with no regard for unknown circumstances. The road to hell is also paved with the good intentions of invoking unknown circumstances to justify leaving her there. All roads lead to hell and you may as well pick the one that lines up with your moral compass.
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Post by eyemyself on Jan 10, 2014 16:53:43 GMT
If the court didnt intend to enslave jeannie it's something of a coincidence that the court wanted to fortify the river and ended up doing exactly what they wanted to do by accident. Her ghost does exacly what the court wanted from this plan so I assume it worked. She's an etheric land mine, basically, and like all land mines she remains there even after her military use is over. (Like annie says the court-forest relationship now seems a very different to the rpe bridge early seperation days when jeannie and her lover were murdered. There's a great many tragic things about jeannie, including the way her fate was orchestrated by her supposed friends but the fact that there's now a bridge and tests and honest relationships between the sides she's meant to seperate and she's still trapped in agony is possibly the worst of it). I think that assuming that Annie's positive experiences in the forest means that things have changed between the forest and the court is a mistake. When the headmaster picks Smitty over Annie as medium to me that is a message to both her and the forest that this friendly back and forth isn't meant to continue. (A message that backfires when Coyote gets involved. He is literally salivating!) The kids have very different opinions about the forest than their parents did, for certain, but they are not the ones calling the shots yet. |
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eskhn
Full Member
You like 'em? Huh? You like 'em?
Posts: 167
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Post by eskhn on Jan 10, 2014 17:00:18 GMT
But what if they could free Jeanne without sending her off to the ether? What if they could bring her back to the Court hundreds of years after the last time she was there? Think of all the wacky time-displacement sitcom hijinks!
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Post by eyemyself on Jan 10, 2014 17:05:23 GMT
But what if they could free Jeanne without sending her off to the ether? What if they could bring her back to the Court hundreds of years after the last time she was there? Think of all the wacky time-displacement sitcom hijinks! I'm still holding out for the Jeanne/Zimmy Super Hero/Sidekick team. Just imagine the fun! |
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gary
Full Member
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Post by gary on Jan 10, 2014 17:14:39 GMT
Is it different though? I think that assuming that Annie's positive experiences in the forest means that things have changed between the forest and the court is a mistake. When the headmaster picks Smitty over Annie as medium to me that is a message to both her and the forest that this friendly back and forth isn't meant to continue. (A message that backfires when Coyote gets involved. He is literally salivating!) The kids have very different opinions about the forest than their parents did, for certain, but they are not the ones calling the shots yet. Yes, I would say it is different. Remember that until the court build a bridge there was literally no way for the two sides to talk. Now they have a procedure for communication with picked indivuals representing each side and agreed signals for talks to happen. Also now there is an explicit and accepted way for citiens of one side to become citizens of the other that both sides agree upon and help happen. As opposed to jeanne and her boyfriend having to defect by themselves. I'm not saying the relationship is warm in the present day but having a diplomatic structure in place and no open warfare is a huge improvement over what we know of the conditions when Jeanne was murdered. Will the forest attack the court the moment Jeanne's protection is removed? I would have to say no because otherwise they'd have attacked over the bridge. And that's really the only question that needs to be answered to argue that the relationship has improved enough that Jeanne is no longer needed. |
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Post by bluevitriol on Jan 10, 2014 17:19:18 GMT
Here's to hoping they think of what the ramifications of freeing Jeanne might be. Donlan has a very nice nose in panel 7. Actually its totally normal for flexible women to sit like this. Annie is "Side Sitting" and turning away from her legs. Side SittingIn fact; with its low tables, it is seen as very lady-like in Japan and is called yokozuwari.  P.S. Yes, very good profiles this day. P.P.S, Donlans nose is awesome as always. P.P.S, Donlan does need a new haircut though... maybe a faux-hawk or other sport haircut... like...  |
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 10, 2014 17:21:01 GMT
It could be plausible that she is more than a barrier stopping things from crossing the river. If she was just that, she would be very ineffective at it. The ravine is still passable by air or even just a bridge. At the moment there's just one bridge, so "traffic" is easily monitored by both sides. But it wouldn't be exactly hard to add to that, especially if the additional bridges/zip-lines were removable after use and thus mobile. The biggest obstacle would be the alarms on the Court-side and we have seen those bypassed multiple times. From what I got the gang's original plan was to just get back to Jeanne again before giving anyone (including Jones) any kind of information about her. Now they are talking about freeing her ASAP, which could be very stupid. Jeanne was trapped there unjustly and freeing her should be their ultimate goal. As the Court's and forest's mediums they arguably have the official authority to do so by now, and given the information we have it is obviously the morally right thing to do. But they aren't thinking about what they are unleashing. It may be against Parley's wishes, but not to at least consult Jones seems uncharacteristically stupid. Since robot is apparently party to the the whole thing, maybe they should ask how the robots would react to Jeanne being freed. The robots are by design regretful about Jeanne's fate. Could be even considered their Original Sin. I had talked about this on the Jeanne and Green Arrow thread: I concluded that if the ever had military value, she has it no longer (unless she can leave the ravine, and we just haven't seen it yet). |
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Post by eyemyself on Jan 10, 2014 17:22:29 GMT
Is it different though? I think that assuming that Annie's positive experiences in the forest means that things have changed between the forest and the court is a mistake. When the headmaster picks Smitty over Annie as medium to me that is a message to both her and the forest that this friendly back and forth isn't meant to continue. (A message that backfires when Coyote gets involved. He is literally salivating!) The kids have very different opinions about the forest than their parents did, for certain, but they are not the ones calling the shots yet. Yes, I would say it is different. Remember that until the court build a bridge there was literally no way for the two sides to talk. Now they have a procedure for communication with picked indivuals representing each side and agreed signals for talks to happen. Also now there is an explicit and accepted way for citiens of one side to become citizens of the other that both sides agree upon and help happen. As opposed to jeanne and her boyfriend having to defect by themselves. I'm not saying the relationship is warm in the present day but having a diplomatic structure in place and no open warfare is a huge improvement over what we know of the conditions when Jeanne was murdered. Will the forest attack the court the moment Jeanne's protection is removed? I would have to say no because otherwise they'd have attacked over the bridge. And that's really the only question that needs to be answered to argue that the relationship has improved enough that Jeanne is no longer needed. It is possible that the reason diplomacy is possible is because access is limited by Jeanne's presence. The forest has made cursory attacks on the court even in the time Annie has been in school. (Ys's seed dropping, Robot being taken over by a shadowman, the tree dogs, and who knows what else that we don't see because either Jeanne or Eggers stops it.) Court members who want to head to the forest not only have to pass a test but are required by Ys and Coyote to give up their human bodies and forest citizens who want to move to the court have to die first and are considered traitors by Ys. |
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Post by Toloc on Jan 10, 2014 17:42:11 GMT
It could be plausible that she is more than a barrier stopping things from crossing the river. If she was just that, she would be very ineffective at it. The ravine is still passable by air or even just a bridge. At the moment there's just one bridge, so "traffic" is easily monitored by both sides. But it wouldn't be exactly hard to add to that, especially if the additional bridges/zip-lines were removable after use and thus mobile. The biggest obstacle would be the alarms on the Court-side and we have seen those bypassed multiple times. From what I got the gang's original plan was to just get back to Jeanne again before giving anyone (including Jones) any kind of information about her. Now they are talking about freeing her ASAP, which could be very stupid. Jeanne was trapped there unjustly and freeing her should be their ultimate goal. As the Court's and forest's mediums they arguably have the official authority to do so by now, and given the information we have it is obviously the morally right thing to do. But they aren't thinking about what they are unleashing. It may be against Parley's wishes, but not to at least consult Jones seems uncharacteristically stupid. The robots are by design regretful about Jeanne's fate. Could be even considered their Original Sin. I had talked about this on the Jeanne and Green Arrow thread: I concluded that if the ever had military value, she has it no longer (unless she can leave the ravine, and we just haven't seen it yet). According to Muut she shouldn't even be able to cross the river. (Although he was wrong!) She never could have had any military value for stopping an invasion. Flying across ( at least for forest dwellers capable of flight) or shooting a rope across was just as possible back then as it is now. I'd guess that Ysengrin would be able to just grow a bridge across the ravine in a manner of seconds if he wanted to. |
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Post by nero on Jan 10, 2014 17:51:51 GMT
It is right to free Jeanne but I hope that they are fully prepared for what might go wrong. Like Jeanne going around and finding all the people with a connection to the Old Court. Annie might need the help of the right psychopomp to send Jeanne and maybe her lover into the ether. Jones could help, she did tell Annie she wants to know the whole story. |
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Søren
Junior Member
Pursuing Authenticity
Posts: 78
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Post by Søren on Jan 10, 2014 18:53:20 GMT
I hope they get around to explaining how various psychompomps "take jurisdiction" over a dead soul.
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Post by Intelligence on Jan 10, 2014 19:44:10 GMT
Now that I look at the issue, they really should consult Jones.
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Post by GK Sierra on Jan 10, 2014 19:54:43 GMT
Now that I look at the issue, they really should consult Jones. It is kind of weird that an indestructible being is asking a bunch of schoolkids to confront a murderous ghost for her. Probably some sort of elaborate test, but still. What the heck Jones. You didn't even have them sign a waiver. |
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Post by eyemyself on Jan 10, 2014 20:01:48 GMT
Now that I look at the issue, they really should consult Jones. It is kind of weird that an indestructible being is asking a bunch of schoolkids to confront a murderous ghost for her. Probably some sort of elaborate test, but still. What the heck Jones. You didn't even have them sign a waiver. Jones actually doesn't know anything about Jeanne other than that Annie asked a question about someone with that name. |
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Post by GK Sierra on Jan 10, 2014 20:11:49 GMT
Really? Hmm. I guess Antimony hasn't filled her in on any of what they've found out so far.
edit: For some reason I thought it was Jones who gave her the assignment rather than Muut.
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Post by atteSmythe on Jan 10, 2014 20:42:54 GMT
Annie was about to fill her in, but Jones cut her off and said (paraphrasing) that Annie should come back to her when she knows more. To our knowledge, Annie never did.
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Post by eyemyself on Jan 10, 2014 21:27:26 GMT
Annie was about to fill her in, but Jones cut her off and said (paraphrasing) that Annie should come back to her when she knows more. To our knowledge, Annie never did. Actually it has always seemed to me more like Annie was trying to figure out how to dodge the question when Jones gave her and easy out: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=588 |
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Post by todd on Jan 10, 2014 23:15:09 GMT
The ammount of gunnerkrigg readers who are adamantly against freeing someone enslaved for eternity is somewhat disturbing to me, tbh. I feel the same way, but I think what concerns those people is that Jeanne's enslavement is keeping the Court safe from being invaded and its people slaughtered by the forest - an argument that Jeanne should be kept imprisoned so that everyone else can be safe. (Though I don't think that Jeanne's imprisonment is the only alternative to such a massacre. The Court could try diplomacy with the forest-folk - something that the Founders presumably didn't bother do.) |
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Post by nightwind on Jan 10, 2014 23:33:46 GMT
That's the point. The Court should've found a way to be safe without relying on a horribly misused soul. Yes, Annie and company probably should put some thought into the 'What then?'-matter, but Jeanne being down there is a wrong that must be righted.
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Post by nightwind on Jan 10, 2014 23:37:17 GMT
Is anyone else bothered by Panel 1? I smell someone's pants on fire - but not Kat's. Everyone, including the adults...maybe even especially the adults...loved her anti grav device. There is no way they would just dismantle it. Not with their desire for power and control. For instance...Anti-grav device inside a room = ability to suspend subjects in the air without their control = great jail. It's like the prison the Incredibles are locked in, without the weakness to barriers. Take it - yes. Steal it - yes. Try to modify it for their own plots - yes. Destroy it - no. On a side note: We didn't see any evidence for this, but a possible explanation could be the antigrav is old news to the Court. Kat's teacher maybe wasn't all "gosh golly an antigrav device!" but rather "Wow, a student built an antigrav device using junk? Astounding!" They just don't want her messing around with it. |
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Post by Angry Individual on Jan 10, 2014 23:53:31 GMT
I don't think Jonathan is anything more than a figurehead, a spokesman as you will. If he does have true power, I believe he slouches because he looks down on the forest, not because he's too lazy to sit up and is not looking at their problems. He looks like a tired man with a lot on his plate, or a very lethargic man with a very boring role. Also that's why they need to tell him so he can slap them. Hope Carver got another "emergency" stick. edit; Alright, maybe he is too lazy to sit up! I'm not very sure, but either way there's more people than Mr. Slouchie Mc Slouchenston in the court and I'm sure they have problems. We know he's not a vacuous figurehead because he was the one who made the call that Smith was to be medium. Was it him? I'm fairly certain there's got to be far more behind the scenes than just him making all the shots everywhere in the court. Just because Jones gave him the recommendation letter doesn't mean he was the only one to read it. Was it ever clarified that he's the only one with power of decision making in the court? If it was then please excuse my random mad rambling. |
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Post by chickenbone on Jan 11, 2014 0:51:02 GMT
I'd like to say that I have more respect for Annie today than I've had for some time. I like the way that she made a straightforward case and then stated her own conclusions. Rather than "blah blah... and therefore we must...", she says "blah blah... and therefore I want to...". This is a very honest statement, without any weakness. Very female. Well played Tom.
As for Smitty, maybe he's just talking things through; you should never be afraid to challenge your basic assumptions. On the other hand, if he's kin to Muddy Panda, then all I can say is that the Headmaster chose well for the position of Court Medium. Lord Young would have approved.
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Post by todd on Jan 11, 2014 0:56:43 GMT
I do think, incidentally, that Andrew's argument is weak - at least, a lot weaker than other possible arguments. I can't see how Jeanne's imprisonment would be more "all right" because it had gone on for a long time. (Unless what he meant was that the length of her imprisonment might have undermined her sanity to the point where it would be dangerous to free her.)
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