[1280] It was that obvious?

[nightwind]

Nov 25, 2013 11:01:19 GMT Lightice said:

The problem is that in Annie's bloodline there can be only one!

When one half-elemental descendent is born, the mother always dies. So there can't be a single one who'd opt to remain childless. There's only one line of descent, period.

Just a note. What if the hybrid is the male? I assume a half-elemental father would have the same problems. It doesn't always have to be the mother.
Btw since Surma lived until Annie was about 12, maybe there is the chance for the parents to have other children. They wouldn't be half-elementals though.

On topic, talking time! I guess there will be more of that and a lot of self-exploration in this chapter, especially when Kat finds Annie. Or if?

[Rymdljus]

Nov 25, 2013 14:12:49 GMT Maeniel said:

Nov 25, 2013 9:38:53 GMT Rymdljus said:

That doesn't seem specific to fire elementals in itself. It is most often assumed that people (girls especially) will want to have children some day. This can be very annoying as the same people often doesn't believe you when you say you don't. But I digress.

As to how it would happen, well... probably the stork?

I think it's much less about reproduction and more about survival. In humans, we might feel a need to reproduce, (which is entirely debatable,) but we're able to choose whether to reproduce or not because we're ultimately talking about another life. We can evaluate whether a child is going to be a good part of our life, or if we might have goals centered around something other than family.


In Surma's case, it's a little more complex. It's clear that Annie is indeed her own person, but she's also a continuation of the fire elemental's life force. I'd guess that having a child in a fire elemental's case is less about reproduction and more about self-preservation.

Seems reasonable. What makes me uncomfortable is the thought of having a biological urge that you can't fight, that will kill you. Your line of thought still leaves room for choice. Die sooner, and live on in another form. Die later, and die forever.

It's very sad to have to effectively kill yourself in the name of self-preservation, but on the other hand, that kind of makes you immortal.

[Daedalus]

Nov 25, 2013 11:01:19 GMT Lightice said:

Nov 25, 2013 10:42:32 GMT snipertom said:

That's somewhat circular. We just don't know about the non-reproducing fire-elementals. Just like how all our ancestors, amazingly ALL REPRODUCED.

The problem is that in Annie's bloodline there can be only one!

When one half-elemental descendent is born, the mother always dies. So there can't be a single one who'd opt to remain childless. There's only one line of descent, period. And Surma had Annie quite young in spite of being aware of her condition; what drove her to that decision? Not Anthony, certainly. He was a lot more distraught than she was.

I wonder if Surma could have (theoretically) had a second child in the time after Annie was born but before she died. Would the fire-elemental-ness have been diluted between two offspring?

[kukapetal]

"It explains a lot"..."was it that obvious"...I just don't get this. What exactly was this girl doing that was broadcasting her sexuality around like beacon for everyone BUT me to see?

Honestly, I don't care that she's gay or bi or whatever. But this entire plotline confuses the heck out of me. What does this girl do that makes everyone think it's so obvious she's gay/bi? She's a tomboy, sure, but it's not like she's got posters of half-naked ladies hanging up all over her room or something. Plenty of tomboys are heterosexual and all Kat's romantic interests/crushes prior to this point were male. Yeah, that doesn't mean she wasn't in denial about her sexuality, but it doesn't make it "obvious" either.

Like I said, I'm fine with the plot developement, but I just don't see what was so glaringly obvious about this.

[quinkgirl]

Nov 25, 2013 16:40:14 GMT kukapetal said:

"It explains a lot"..."was it that obvious"...I just don't get this. What exactly was this girl doing that was broadcasting her sexuality around like beacon for everyone BUT me to see?

Honestly, I don't care that she's gay or bi or whatever. But this entire plotline confuses the heck out of me. What does this girl do that makes everyone think it's so obvious she's gay/bi? She's a tomboy, sure, but it's not like she's got posters of half-naked ladies hanging up all over her room or something. Plenty of tomboys are heterosexual and all Kat's romantic interests/crushes prior to this point were male. Yeah, that doesn't mean she wasn't in denial about her sexuality, but it doesn't make it "obvious" either.

Like I said, I'm fine with the plot developement, but I just don't see what was so glaringly obvious about this.

If I remember correctly (I probably don't, so if you notice please correct me), wasn't Paz hanging around Kat more often?
...but maybe that doesn't make it glaringly obvious.

[Gulby]

For the elemental part, what if the "bones-like-stuff" that go out of the fire elemental body when Zimmy penetrates Antimony's thoughts are a mi-scientific/mi-etheric bound, and that's the reason why her parents didn't tell anything to her, hoping that the bounding would be enough ? What if, at a certain age (puberty ?), the elemental "show off" to the hoster, explains what he/she is and the reproduce-and-die thing, and convince the hoster to do so ? And what if Surma later discovered that if she didn't accepted that, she had could live a normal life, but killing the fire-elemental ?...

[temnoc]

Tom's comment should've been: "Forum predictions continue to be foisted." (With the possible exception of Kat only caring about Annie knowing.)

[eskhn]

It looks like Reynard still has his City Face comic on the wall in panel 5.

[Lightice]

Nov 25, 2013 16:40:14 GMT kukapetal said:

"It explains a lot"..."was it that obvious"...I just don't get this. What exactly was this girl doing that was broadcasting her sexuality around like beacon for everyone BUT me to see?

Well, it's been in development for a couple of years now, albeit in a pretty subtle manner. Kat slowly stopped talking about boys or birds, when you'd think that going through puberty would add to her interest. Then there was that party and little misunderstanding with Paz, and ever since Kat has been decidedly uncomfortable about all things involving romance and public closeness with Annie. Plenty of people did count 2+2, though I don't think that anyone expected Paz to be Kat's closet key.

[philman]

Nov 25, 2013 17:34:15 GMT Lightice said:

Nov 25, 2013 16:40:14 GMT kukapetal said:

"It explains a lot"..."was it that obvious"...I just don't get this. What exactly was this girl doing that was broadcasting her sexuality around like beacon for everyone BUT me to see?

Well, it's been in development for a couple of years now, albeit in a pretty subtle manner. Kat slowly stopped talking about boys or birds, when you'd think that going through puberty would add to her interest. Then there was that party and little misunderstanding with Paz, and ever since Kat has been decidedly uncomfortable about all things involving romance and public closeness with Annie. Plenty of people did count 2+2, though I don't think that anyone expected Paz to be Kat's closet key.

On the contrary, I think a lot of people expected Paz would be the eventual subject of affection, although most of us didn't expect Paz to be the one to make the first move!

And on the fire elemental's "need to reproduce". Erm, maybe you need a refresher course in reproduction and evolution?

The fact that there is an unbroken line of fire elementals going back isn't that strange. There is also an unbroken line of men with my surname going back many centuries, what a coincidence! The mere fact that any person is alive today means that there has been an unbroken line of reproduction. Other human/elemental offspring may have occurred, but then at some point one of them may have failed to have children and the line died out. Ok it is slightly different here in that the mother knew she would die if she had a baby, but there are children/adults out there today who have been born in similar conditions, with the parents knowing that their child would have a certain disease, or the mother has a high chance of some serious complication. Not quite the same thing, but then there aren't many fire elementals in the world today either (that we know of).

And hey, Surma survived until Annie was 12! With mothers who have various blood conditions, or other conditions, having babies can be a massive risk.


Sorry for a bi of a rant, I just think people are over-estimating the contribution of the fire elemental side in causing Surma to want children. the function of all life is to reproduce, not all of us choose to, but it is the basic function of all life.

[warrl]

Nov 25, 2013 14:12:49 GMT Maeniel said:

What makes me uncomfortable is the thought of having a biological urge that you can't fight, that will kill you.

It's actually not that unusual. Female octopuses die shortly after their eggs hatch, exhausted and starved from the time spent guarding them. Salmon lay and fertilize the eggs and then die, well before the eggs hatch. They are not unique.

However, in both cases the eggs vastly outnumber the parents. One-for-one replacement leaves no room for mortality by ANY other cause.

[philman]

Nov 25, 2013 18:19:12 GMT warrl said:

Nov 25, 2013 14:12:49 GMT Maeniel said:

What makes me uncomfortable is the thought of having a biological urge that you can't fight, that will kill you.

It's actually not that unusual. Female octopuses die shortly after their eggs hatch, exhausted and starved from the time spent guarding them. Salmon lay and fertilize the eggs and then die, well before the eggs hatch. They are not unique.

However, in both cases the eggs vastly outnumber the parents. One-for-one replacement leaves no room for mortality by ANY other cause.

There was also that story recently of some species of marsupial, the males go into a sexual frenzy mating with as many females as possible for a few days before dying of exhaustion: www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24443104

Although as you said, that involves many many matings, not just one for one.

[lit]

Nov 25, 2013 16:40:14 GMT kukapetal said:

"It explains a lot"..."was it that obvious"...I just don't get this. What exactly was this girl doing that was broadcasting her sexuality around like beacon for everyone BUT me to see?

Honestly, I don't care that she's gay or bi or whatever. But this entire plotline confuses the heck out of me. What does this girl do that makes everyone think it's so obvious she's gay/bi? She's a tomboy, sure, but it's not like she's got posters of half-naked ladies hanging up all over her room or something. Plenty of tomboys are heterosexual and all Kat's romantic interests/crushes prior to this point were male. Yeah, that doesn't mean she wasn't in denial about her sexuality, but it doesn't make it "obvious" either.

Like I said, I'm fine with the plot developement, but I just don't see what was so glaringly obvious about this.

It may have been obvious to Renard. Renard and Kat do spend a lot of time around one another. I'm not sure it's implied in the comic that it is obvious to anybody else - apart from maybe Gamma and Zimmy (in Divine) or Paz herself in Faraway Morning.

It would make sense that of anyone, those three would pick up on it - Zimmy and Gamma at least being in a homosexual relationship themselves. As for Paz, I dunno, maybe Kat had been sending her body language; it's possible she's secretly liked Paz for a long time.

[philman]

Nov 25, 2013 18:28:10 GMT lit said:

Nov 25, 2013 16:40:14 GMT kukapetal said:

"It explains a lot"..."was it that obvious"...I just don't get this. What exactly was this girl doing that was broadcasting her sexuality around like beacon for everyone BUT me to see?

Honestly, I don't care that she's gay or bi or whatever. But this entire plotline confuses the heck out of me. What does this girl do that makes everyone think it's so obvious she's gay/bi? She's a tomboy, sure, but it's not like she's got posters of half-naked ladies hanging up all over her room or something. Plenty of tomboys are heterosexual and all Kat's romantic interests/crushes prior to this point were male. Yeah, that doesn't mean she wasn't in denial about her sexuality, but it doesn't make it "obvious" either.

Like I said, I'm fine with the plot developement, but I just don't see what was so glaringly obvious about this.

It may have been obvious to Renard. Renard and Kat do spend a lot of time around one another. I'm not sure it's implied in the comic that it is obvious to anybody else - apart from maybe Gamma and Zimmy (in Divine) or Paz herself in Faraway Morning.

It would make sense that of anyone, those three would pick up on it - Zimmy and Gamma at least being in a homosexual relationship themselves. As for Paz, I dunno, maybe Kat had been sending her body language; it's possible she's secretly liked Paz for a long time.

Renard can smell all sorts of things, he's been saying things to Kat for ages that hint he knew she was into girls before she even did.

[nightwind]

Nov 25, 2013 16:04:54 GMT Daedalus said:

I wonder if Surma could have (theoretically) had a second child in the time after Annie was born but before she died. Would the fire-elemental-ness have been diluted between two offspring?

Well, the 'flame' went on from Surma to Annie; since Surma not even survived that process I think there's simply no flame left for the hypothetical second child. Or, having to feed it two children, she would have died faster, and there's no way to tell if the flame is sufficient for two persons.
For the problems with lineage: Nature surely didn't provide for the possibility of mating humans and fire elementals. There are quirks and flaws to a union like that. Also fire elementals are beings of aether. Most hybrids of natural beings (say, horse and donkey, lion and tiger) are even sterile.

[kukapetal]

Nov 25, 2013 17:34:15 GMT Lightice said:

Well, it's been in development for a couple of years now, albeit in a pretty subtle manner. Kat slowly stopped talking about boys or birds, when you'd think that going through puberty would add to her interest. Then there was that party and little misunderstanding with Paz, and ever since Kat has been decidedly uncomfortable about all things involving romance and public closeness with Annie. Plenty of people did count 2+2, though I don't think that anyone expected Paz to be Kat's closet key.

Yes, I'm aware it's been a plot point for a while now, but, as you said, it's been much more subtle. And what hints we did get were via being able to view Kat's behavior as responses to the "hitting" on Paz incident in "Faraway Morning," which is info the other characters don't have.

So yeah, I don't see what's so "obvious" about it, especially to a character in the strip who doesn't have the omniscient POV we the readers have.

[warrl]

Nov 25, 2013 19:25:08 GMT kukapetal said:

have the omniscient POV we the readers have.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Is our prediction accuracy rate up into the single-digit percentages yet? Or is it still in tenths of a percent?

[Lightice]

Nov 25, 2013 19:25:08 GMT kukapetal said:

So yeah, I don't see what's so "obvious" about it, especially to a character in the strip who doesn't have the omniscient POV we the readers have.

It's probably not for anyone but Renard who is both very attentive and has a keen sense of smell. Don't dwell on that second point too hard.

[Intelligence]

The only way it could be obvious is if its with Annie. And Renard, why are you apologizing?

[Momo]

I think it's important to remember that a lot of things in this comic happen "off screen". Just the fact that Kat is the one to go after Paz in Faraway Morning suggests that they're pretty good friends at that point, and they HAVE been raising a baby bird together.

With Paz being the one to break Kat out of her funk and the aforementioned bird raising, I think it's entirely possibly that Kat has had a crush on Paz for a while now. Whether or not she recognized it as romantic in nature prior to Faraway Morning is up in the air (when I was younger I had a FEROCIOUS crush on a girl that I only realized was a crush in retrospect, just because at the time being a big gaymo wasn't even something that was on my radar), but Rey may have seen it for what it was since he's been broadly hinting at things for a long time.

[Daedalus]

Nov 25, 2013 19:34:41 GMT Intelligence said:

The only way it could be obvious is if its with Annie. And Renard, why are you apologizing?

Whether or not you think it makes sense, this is a sensitive moment for Kat. Renard mocking her would make it more awkward/painful.

Though, of course, everyone should know that Rey always knows what's up. There are benefits to being a canine.

[CoyoteReborn]

Nov 25, 2013 19:34:41 GMT Intelligence said:

The only way it could be obvious is if its with Annie. And Renard, why are you apologizing?

Because only *I* am allowed to mock anyone in the Gunnerverse! Obviously.

[Gotolei]

Random thought: what are the chances that Annie's in her (and Kat's) dorm next door, listening through the wall or something?
The other strip didn't show Kat checking there, just Rey's room.

[fishtie]

A lot of speculation for "it's obvious" could be drawn from various small points; for example divine contains elements that suggest everyone has suspicions.

[Covalent]

X-axis is amount of time before/after the update

Y-axis is the predicted amount of Pazkat Rule 34

[Señor Goose]

Nov 25, 2013 21:54:59 GMT Covalent said:

X-axis is amount of time before/after the update

Y-axis is the predicted amount of Pazkat Rule 34

It would not be that gentle of a curve.

And there is already a staggering volume of porn depicting the two. I know there was one that was created sometime between Kat getting the love letter and Paz asking her out. So, well done, random porn artist.

[philman]

Nov 25, 2013 22:00:18 GMT Señor Goose said:

Nov 25, 2013 21:54:59 GMT Covalent said:

X-axis is amount of time before/after the update

Y-axis is the predicted amount of Pazkat Rule 34

It would not be that gentle of a curve.

And there is already a staggering volume of porn depicting the two. I know there was one that was created sometime between Kat getting the love letter and Paz asking her out. So, well done, random porn artist.

I am worried as to how you know about that. Where does one even find out about stuff like that?

[The Anarch]

Nov 25, 2013 23:55:36 GMT philman said:

Nov 25, 2013 22:00:18 GMT Señor Goose said:

It would not be that gentle of a curve.

And there is already a staggering volume of porn depicting the two. I know there was one that was created sometime between Kat getting the love letter and Paz asking her out. So, well done, random porn artist.

I am worried as to how you know about that. Where does one even find out about stuff like that?

The internet.

Damn thing's chock full of porn and information (about porn).

[eskhn]

Nov 25, 2013 23:55:36 GMT philman said:

Nov 25, 2013 22:00:18 GMT Señor Goose said:

It would not be that gentle of a curve.

And there is already a staggering volume of porn depicting the two. I know there was one that was created sometime between Kat getting the love letter and Paz asking her out. So, well done, random porn artist.

I am worried as to how you know about that. Where does one even find out about stuff like that?

This probably has something to do with why the forum automatically changes "/ co /" to "The Butt Zone".

[Daedalus]

Back to the actual canon story (what a strange idea!), I love how Kat's soliloquy is done here. Renard is also very interesting: Tom shows his abrupt personality changes very well.