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Post by madjack on Apr 23, 2018 12:37:03 GMT
Somebody in the SomethingAwful GC thread posited that if the Kat = Etheric computer theory holds water, and if the computer is generating the shield (with the robots just projecting it) then Kat might be under a huge amount of stress, or even blacked out, from this being thrust upon her. This got a few wildspec gears turning in my head and I started wondering: Why would the computer necessarily work that way? This is fairly murky guesswork, so strap in.
Perhaps, if events did play out that way, the machine that is the etheric computer (if its not physically Kat herself, and just runs her), isn't a warehouse sized single unit like Kat is currently messing with, but a command and control node that piggybacks processing power off every single court robot to do its computational heavy lifting, possibly using the extra purple bits on their CPUs as links. Now the robots have none to spare by being completely occupied generating the shield (If that's even what they're doing), there isn't any to spare for extras and Kat gets thrown into sleep mode.
This could explain a few things:
-Why she can read the robots' code: It physically runs her brain.
-Why the robots view her as an angel: She's born from their minds in the same way that an etheric being is born from the minds of a human, except without involving the ether at all, except on the main processor that Anja and Donny built, and also without having to die.
-Why some some etheric beings see her as an abomination: See above.
-Why her etheric form is insectoid: It's a visual pun, she's literally a hive mind.
Edit: She was first seen as an angel the same way coyote was first seen as a god: Someone seeing them as something they're not.
Edit Edit: Upon reread this feels like making the scenario fit the conclusions a bit much, but those conclusions fit the themes of balance and duality a little too well for me to dismiss them.
More Edits: After sleeping on this, I've been overthinking things again, there's no reason why their computer couldn't work this way regardless of whether Kat is a part of it or not.
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 25, 2018 12:47:18 GMT
-Why the robots view her as an angel: She's born from their minds in the same way that an etheric being is born from the minds of a human, except without involving the ether at all, except on the main processor that Anja and Donny built, and also without having to die. What if...the robots' memory was regularly uploaded onto that computer, filling more and and more of its memory banks with records of the Angel/Creator? |
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Post by netherdan on Apr 26, 2018 13:15:42 GMT
-Why the robots view her as an angel: She's born from their minds in the same way that an etheric being is born from the minds of a human, except without involving the ether at all, except on the main processor that Anja and Donny built, and also without having to die. What if...the robots' memory was regularly uploaded onto that computer, filling more and and more of it's memory banks with records of the Angel/Creator? That could actually explain why her etherical form is changing even though robots don't have a soul to feed the ether with information (and as far as I remember none of them died so even if they "developed" a soul that information would still not be in the ether) and why this "etherical feedback" happened so fast, because it doesn't need the robots dying one by one to carry on the "creator" myth, they're doing it all at the same time all the time with their connection to that supercomputer which in turn has a direct link to the ether Edit: now that I thought about it, have we seen Kat's etherical form before her looking like a cybernetic hivemind queen? Has Annie looked at her through the blinker stone or any other character with etherical form did it before the whole creator thing and saw something strange? Is she really transforming or just revealing to be like that? |
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Post by madjack on Apr 26, 2018 13:34:54 GMT
Robots aren't normally networked like this, except when they are (and aren't supposed to be)? Memory might not even need to be involved on the computer end, it could just be the more and more the robots believe, the stronger the effect gets.
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 26, 2018 16:46:44 GMT
I did not think of the robots to be really networked like those on the ship. We still do not know what the blue extra part does. It could be a one-way connection. They could regularly go and connect physically to a computer terminal via their communication ports. I am not a computer or robotics scientist, but I believe a regular memory dump would make sense both in the Court's and the robots' eyes. Arthur for example has existed for, what, ten years? I do not think he simply overwrites stored memories when the storage capacity is exhausted.
Thus, I propose the following theory: As an equivalent to living being's dreaming, robots regularly hook themselves up to the central computer. The content of their memory banks is copied, defragmented and processed, possibly to avoid data being lost again (like it happened to their predecessors, who did not know how to maintain themselves). The robot can then decide to delete data on they do not need on their hard drive and just keep the index to remember they can access it later by connecting again with the central computer, thus freeing hard drive space.
Alternatively, they are/can be connected wirelessly to the external storage, so they do not have to pause in their work when they need to transfer data.
What this theory needs, though, is an explanation why robots would then be not allowed to access data other robots have stored on the supercomputer. "Because that would make them a hive-mind" is not an answer I am fond of. Maybe the supercomputer does not keep the data available and just processes it for unknown means. Robots have to do something anyway to avoid their data storage capacity running out.
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Post by Runningflame on Apr 26, 2018 18:11:02 GMT
Edit: now that I thought about it, have we seen Kat's etherical form before her looking like a cybernetic hivemind queen? Has Annie looked at her through the blinker stone or any other character with etherical form did it before the whole creator thing and saw something strange? Is she really transforming or just revealing to be like that? It's a little complicated, because Kat isn't normally in the ether and can't get there voluntarily (unlike ether-sensitive beings like Coyote, Renard, and Annie). Even when Annie's in the ether, the other person must also be in the ether for Annie to see their etheric form ( for example). So whenever Annie looked through her blinker stone, Kat wasn't in the ether and looked like her gray, boring self. The only times we've seen Kat's etheric form are when Zimmy was involved (because with Zimmy, etheric things start bleeding over into the primary world, such as the cut on Annie's face1), and when Kat's Diego-inspired device yanked her into the ether. I'm not sure why the RotD didn't have any effect on how she looked--but then again, it didn't make Annie's cut show up either. Now, it is possible that Kat's etheric form is developing over time, since Zimmy doesn't seem to have been scared of her at first. On the other hand, maybe Zimmy just hadn't started having visions about Kat in particular yet. The interesting question is: what exactly do the robots see when they look at Kat?
1 The other interesting question is: if Kat actually had been blipped into Zimmingham during Power Station, what would she have looked like? (We'll probably never know because the Kat that showed up there wasn't real.) |
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Post by netherdan on Apr 26, 2018 20:15:14 GMT
What this theory needs, though, is an explanation why robots would then be not allowed to access data other robots have stored on the supercomputer. "Because that would make them a hive-mind" is not an answer I am fond of. Maybe the supercomputer does not keep the data available and just processes it for unknown means. Robots have to do something anyway to avoid their data storage capacity running out. Well, I have the answer for that concern of yours: Encryption! Whether the robots actually use Anja's or Kat's computer or both as a cloud drive or auxiliary processor is a mystery (yet) but if they really do it there's this simple way to prevent them to become said hive mind: they just need to encrypt their memories so that only the individual who stored the data can access it. It's a little complicated, because Kat isn't normally in the ether and can't get there voluntarily (unlike ether-sensitive beings like Coyote, Renard, and Annie). Even when Annie's in the ether, the other person must also be in the ether for Annie to see their etheric form ( for example). So whenever Annie looked through her blinker stone, Kat wasn't in the ether and looked like her gray, boring self. The only times we've seen Kat's etheric form are when Zimmy was involved (because with Zimmy, etheric things start bleeding over into the primary world, such as the cut on Annie's face1), and when Kat's Diego-inspired device yanked her into the ether. I'm not sure why the RotD didn't have any effect on how she looked--but then again, it didn't make Annie's cut show up either. Now, it is possible that Kat's etheric form is developing over time, since Zimmy doesn't seem to have been scared of her at first. On the other hand, maybe Zimmy just hadn't started having visions about Kat in particular yet. The interesting question is: what exactly do the robots see when they look at Kat?
1 The other interesting question is: if Kat actually had been blipped into Zimmingham during Power Station, what would she have looked like? (We'll probably never know because the Kat that showed up there wasn't real.) Very well put. From what I got, the RotD was just a facade (that Kat could see right through, somehow) that was located in another dimension and wasn't exactly etheric but made of illusions. It may be a bit of a stretch but I think of if as a "prototype" to what the ether is: because there are souls there that believe in it then it looks real but it can't be actually real since the souls aren't merged with it like they're merged with the ether. And the reason I think Kat can see through its facade is because she's already an etheric goddess and just didn't realize it yet (damn robots turning people into gods fulfilling the Court's purpose without informing upper management) Edit: remember that Kat had valid credentials to enter the RotD and didn't need any insisting from "Antimony/Gillitie Medium/Afterlife Guide" to be allowed in Edit 2: Think of it on the lines of the same illusions Mort could create, but on a larger scale, and for some reason it doesn't affect gods (maybe Mort couldn't "scare" Kat anymore after she became the Angel/Creator) |
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 27, 2018 10:03:34 GMT
What this theory needs, though, is an explanation why robots would then be not allowed to access data other robots have stored on the supercomputer. "Because that would make them a hive-mind" is not an answer I am fond of. Maybe the supercomputer does not keep the data available and just processes it for unknown means. Robots have to do something anyway to avoid their data storage capacity running out. Well, I have the answer for that concern of yours: Encryption! Whether the robots actually use Anja's or Kat's computer or both as a cloud drive or auxiliary processor is a mystery (yet) but if they really do it there's this simple way to prevent them to become said hive mind: they just need to encrypt their memories so that only the individual who stored the data can access it. Right, thanks! And "cloud drive" was the word that would not come to me yesterday... |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 27, 2018 10:32:42 GMT
I think looking at the Gunnerverse as being subjective, more so closer to the ether and less so closer to the mundane world, solves all problems including retroactive causality and selective phenomena. [edit] Kat may just be very gifted but if not she could be somewhat gifted and Anja made her a user account on her majick computer when she was still young without telling her, waiting until she was older to give her access and a tattoo, but unknowingly letting Kat access resources on a subconscious level. In that case she would have been able to use magic if she believed in it and her life would have gone very differently. I think that's less likely than the Gunnerverse just being subjective though.[/edit] |
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Post by netherdan on Apr 27, 2018 13:38:08 GMT
Right, thanks! And "cloud drive" was the word that would not come to me yesterday... Also, they are acting like a hive mind right now but that's most certainly not how they normally operate and is just an emergency override of the Court's defense system (probably implemented by Anja) PS: it would be funny if Sky Watcher were the shield's origin |
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Post by Daedalus on Mar 19, 2019 18:39:14 GMT
It makes me sad that this plot seems to have been abandoned for the moment.
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Post by Runningflame on Mar 20, 2019 2:59:46 GMT
It makes me sad that this plot seems to have been abandoned for the moment. Don't worry, Kat is still fiercely protective of her robot worshipers friends. She just needs time to perfect her plan to free them from the shield generation program and the headcrabs. Soon we'll see her marching into the throne room of Jonathan Llanwellyn, shouting, "Let my people go!" |
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Post by mturtle7 on Mar 20, 2019 21:46:38 GMT
It makes me sad that this plot seems to have been abandoned for the moment. Don't worry, Kat is still fiercely protective of her robot worshipers friends. She just needs time to perfect her plan to free them from the shield generation program and the headcrabs. Soon we'll see her marching into the throne room of Jonathan Llanwellyn, shouting, "Let my people go!" Although, come to think of it, that shield generation program actually seems to have them acting even MORE like a massive, single-minded cult than before. In particular, that pose of lining up on all the rooftops and staring up at the sky simply SCREAMS "waiting for the savior/destroyer to come". Perhaps if, instead being shut DOWN, that emergency program could just be...modified a little... |
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Post by saardvark on Mar 21, 2019 13:35:27 GMT
Remember that Annie was the one that started it all when she gave Robot something nobody had: a choice. So, was Annie the snake equivalent on that theory? nice. and to extend the religious allegory, perhaps robots "corrupted" by the ability to choose (knowledge of good and evil) now become sentient/human(ish)? and "fall" from the "purity" (or simplicity at least) of robot-hood into something... more? on a religious tangent, Kat-angel strikes me as a Moses figure for the robots, potentially bringing them into the "promised land" of organics, real feeling, ether contact, becoming more human-like. It makes me sad that this plot seems to have been abandoned for the moment. Don't worry, Kat is still fiercely protective of her robot worshipers friends. She just needs time to perfect her plan to free them from the shield generation program and the headcrabs. Soon we'll see her marching into the throne room of Jonathan Llanwellyn, shouting, "Let my people go!" the Moses parallels are intriguing. I was poking around with them earlier as well.... |
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Post by Runningflame on Mar 22, 2019 17:59:44 GMT
Somewhat off-topic, but I gotta say: Every time I see the title of this thread, I misread it as "Theology: Kat, Robots, and Religion."
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 24, 2019 11:33:11 GMT
nice. and to extend the religious allegory, perhaps robots "corrupted" by the ability to choose (knowledge of good and evil) now become sentient/human(ish)? and "fall" from the "purity" (or simplicity at least) of robot-hood into something... more? on a religious tangent, Kat-angel strikes me as a Moses figure for the robots, potentially bringing them into the "promised land" of organics, real feeling, ether contact, becoming more human-like. the Moses parallels are intriguing. I was poking around with them earlier as well.... Would not rather Robot be Moses, being their prophet and all? Kat must be an angel of the Creator himself, having his powers. Actually, it has been a while since I read the OT. |
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Post by saardvark on Mar 24, 2019 23:56:42 GMT
the Moses parallels are intriguing. I was poking around with them earlier as well.... Would not rather Robot be Moses, being their prophet and all? Kat must be an angel of the Creator himself, having his powers. Actually, it has been a while since I read the OT.You are right; Kat isn't just leading them to the "promised land" of organics and feelings and a touch of "human-ness" (ie, a Moses figure),she is actually creating that promised land - more than even an Angel, she is the Creator! But vis-a-vis the Headmaster she is Moses to his Pharaoh. So Kat is a bit of both - Moses and the Creator (as the robots, the seraphs, specifically, themselves have deemed her). |
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Post by todd on Mar 25, 2019 12:42:55 GMT
And Kat doesn't even know about the robot religion.
Though the remark about Kat to the Headmaster as Moses to Pharaoh reminds me of the notion I'd sometimes imagined of the Court leadership, once it finds out about the robot religion and seeing it as a threat (or even an inconvenience - say, too many robots neglecting their duty to hear Robot's sermons or go on pilgrimages to Jeanne's "shrine"), decide to discipline Kat in front of the robots, in the hopes that it will discredit that religion and get them to see her as just a schoolgirl rather than an angel or goddess. (And then having it go disastrously wrong - maybe, have the Court leadership become the equivalent of the Devil in the robots' theology.)
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Post by DonDueed on Mar 25, 2019 15:22:49 GMT
And Kat doesn't even know about the robot religion. Though the remark about Kat to the Headmaster as Moses to Pharaoh reminds me of the notion I'd sometimes imagined of the Court leadership, once it finds out about the robot religion and seeing it as a threat (or even an inconvenience - say, too many robots neglecting their duty to hear Robot's sermons or go on pilgrimages to Jeanne's "shrine"), decide to discipline Kat in front of the robots, in the hopes that it will discredit that religion and get them to see her as just a schoolgirl rather than an angel or goddess. (And then having it go disastrously wrong - maybe, have the Court leadership become the equivalent of the Devil in the robots' theology.) "... but the Creator hardened the heart of the Headmaster, so he would not let the robots go." |
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Post by saardvark on Mar 25, 2019 18:08:58 GMT
And Kat doesn't even know about the robot religion. Though the remark about Kat to the Headmaster as Moses to Pharaoh reminds me of the notion I'd sometimes imagined of the Court leadership, once it finds out about the robot religion and seeing it as a threat (or even an inconvenience - say, too many robots neglecting their duty to hear Robot's sermons or go on pilgrimages to Jeanne's "shrine"), decide to discipline Kat in front of the robots, in the hopes that it will discredit that religion and get them to see her as just a schoolgirl rather than an angel or goddess. (And then having it go disastrously wrong - maybe, have the Court leadership become the equivalent of the Devil in the robots' theology.) "... but the Creator hardened the heart of the Headmaster, so he would not let the robots go." though that would make Kat a bit schizophrenic, since as Moses she is fighting for them to be able to go, but as Creator.... |
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Post by DonDueed on Mar 25, 2019 18:47:25 GMT
"... but the Creator hardened the heart of the Headmaster, so he would not let the robots go." though that would make Kat a bit schizophrenic, since as Moses she is fighting for them to be able to go, but as Creator.... Not so different from the original, though, since YHWH supposedly sent Moses to set his people free, then for some unexplained reason undercut him two or three times.
Then again, there's no archeological evidence that anything like Exodus actually happened, so you have to ask what the storyteller was thinking rather than YHWH.
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Post by todd on Mar 26, 2019 0:09:36 GMT
Or, alternately (jumping to my idea above about the Court leadership trying to publicly discredit Kat after deciding that the robot religion is too dangerous), the Headmaster says to the robots, after imposing the ultimate in detentions on Kat in front of them, "Where's your messiah now?"
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Post by Daedalus on May 25, 2020 8:23:11 GMT
 ...ahem. Discuss, in context of today's page. |
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Post by wies on May 25, 2020 8:40:44 GMT
For now it seems you are on the right money!
Though I still think she didn't invent it on her own. (well, kinda) Even if she never saw one, she can be aware that the Tic Tocs exist. Like, the Court knows them, and Kat's parents even explicitly said to Ysengrin they would like to find more out about it.
Also, maybe this explains Annie's obssesion to Jeanne? Like, she felt at some subconscious level that something happened there that shouldn't have happened, and in her freeing Jeanne she also freed herself of that gnawing feeling. (which that mark on her cheek symbolized)
Sidenote: If this all is correct, then I am glad that Tom didn't change the storyline because you and other readers were already speculating on it. There are some storytellers in popular culture who did it to maintain the 'surprise'.
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Post by Daedalus on May 25, 2020 8:44:24 GMT
For now it seems you are on the right money! Though I still think she didn't invent it on her own. (well, kinda) Even if she never saw one, she can be aware that the Tic Tocs exist. Like, the Court knows them, and Kat's parents even explicitly said to Ysengrin they would like to find more out about it. Also, maybe this explains Annie's obssesion to Jeanne? Like, she felt at some subconscious level that something happened there that shouldn't have happened, and in her freeing Jeanne she also freed herself of that gnawing feeling. (which that mark on her cheek symbolized) Sidenote: If this all is correct, then I am glad that Tom didn't change the storyline because you and other readers were already speculating on it. There are some storytellers in popular culture who did it to maintain the 'surprise'. Someone proposed a theory in today's page thread that Annie was *supposed* to die before the Tic-Tocs saved her, which is why "neither" Annie is supposed to exist in this timestream. If that's true, it could be another reason why Kat undergoes apotheosis -- to save Annie in the past, retroactively. The current page definitely is pointing towards a bootstrap paradox: Kat building a Tic-Toc based on seeing them around*, then her own invention going back in time and becoming her own inspiration. *Come to think of it, has Kat ever been in the same page as a Tic-Toc? My memory says "no". it's possible she "invented" this on her own. We shall see. Zimmy's comments here are also interesting, especially about how she perceives Cat and how Annie should "keep an eye on her": www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2265 |
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Post by wies on May 25, 2020 8:54:03 GMT
Someone proposed a theory in today's page thread that Annie was *supposed* to die before the Tic-Tocs saved her, which is why "neither" Annie is supposed to exist in this timestream. If that's true, it could be another reason why Kat undergoes apotheosis -- to save Annie in the past, retroactively. Yeah, and I think her own supposed death is perhaps part of why Annie felt so compelled to save Jeanne.
And to your remarks: yup, there are so many motifs in GKC around eyes and perceptions, you could fill a thread with compilating them.
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Post by arcuna on May 25, 2020 9:05:55 GMT
Come to think of it, has Kat ever been in the same page as a Tic-Toc? My memory says "no". it's possible she "invented" this on her own. We shall see. I think this is the closest Kat and a Tic Toc have been to being in the same page. EDIT: And even then, it's pretty clear that Kat was too distracted to even hear what Annie and the robots were talking about. |
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Post by pyradonis on May 25, 2020 11:30:14 GMT
Someone proposed a theory in today's page thread that Annie was *supposed* to die before the Tic-Tocs saved her, which is why "neither" Annie is supposed to exist in this timestream. If that's true, it could be another reason why Kat undergoes apotheosis -- to save Annie in the past, retroactively. Not only today, it has been proposed several times since Clippy made the comment of neither of them being supposed to be there. I am a firm believer in that. But I admit the majority seems to think there is a third Annie somewhere. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on May 25, 2020 13:40:25 GMT
Come to think of it, has Kat ever been in the same page as a Tic-Toc? My memory says "no". it's possible she "invented" this on her own. We shall see. I think this is the closest Kat and a Tic Toc have been to being in the same page. EDIT: And even then, it's pretty clear that Kat was too distracted to even hear what Annie and the robots were talking about. Tom was presenting the answer to the origin of the Tic Tocs by making Kat the focal point of panel seven. Now we can appreciate the foreshadowing. |
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Post by Runningflame on May 25, 2020 16:39:17 GMT
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