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Post by Chancellor on Feb 4, 2015 8:27:21 GMT
If that's the case, where did they get it?
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Post by Daedalus on Feb 4, 2015 8:29:00 GMT
If that's the case, where did they get it? Diego made it, presumably - just because Coyote can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible. Or rules may be different for biological beings (which is what I believe - after all, code can be copied while souls cannot). |
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Post by Chancellor on Feb 4, 2015 8:35:20 GMT
I'm just hoping they didn't have to tear it out of some poor robot (or RoboKat forbid, pluralized).
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Feb 28, 2015 14:51:31 GMT
The revelations in Chapter 50 support Le Moose's wild speculation that Kat is a biological android and moves it up to quite plausible. - The Court already has an assembly line creating bodies for the Foley students. Those bodies grow into adults, so the same approach should be able to create a younger child. - The only significant impediment is what fulfilled to role of the spirit totem in Kat's creation. I speculated that Android Kat might be an extension of Anja's etheric computer. calpal pointed put the parallel between the totems and the robot operating code printed as a cube. Substitute an etheric CPU for an etheric totem, perform a variation of "the ritual", and you have Kat. Add the robots belief and you have the Angel. - Some might say that the theory also needs an explanation for why Anja, Donald, and the Court would do such a thing. The Court would do it because they can and to see what the technology might lead to (such as immortality through body swapping). Anja's and Donald's motivation might simply be that they couldn't have a child on their own. Annie tells Kat almost everything, so I am pretty certain that Kat will learn about the how the Foley students are made. All Kat needs is some inspiration or reason to wonder if she, or others, were also created by the same process. EDIT: Android Kat could have been made using samples of Anja's and Donald's DNA. Annie mentions that the Court uses DNA samples from the former fairy/animal to sequence something. I assume Annie was about to say the DNA samples are used to sequence new human DNA. A DNA test may not reveal that Kat is an Android. EDIT 2, because I couldn't stop myself... Anja: "This isn't what it looks like. Unless it looks like I made an android daughter using my own DNA, because that's what I did. Don't ask me about the Robot Angel though, because that's new." |
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Post by Daedalus on Mar 5, 2015 4:22:21 GMT
Jelly Jellybean, Le Moose, calpal et al - I was going to post this earlier, but I was trying to think of a good 2000th post. Anyway, my two cents: I would not put the biological android theory at "pretty sure", yet. When I first read it, it just didn't seem...right, somehow. Too similar to some kind of SciFi B-movie. However, searching for evidence to disprove it, I couldn't find any. It's awesome theory, but it really is wild spec without enough evidence at the moment to consider it likely. There is not very much positive evidence that Kat is an android either, other than a few anecdotal quotes. Two possible reasons have been suggested for why Kat would be artificially created ("because we can" and infertility), both reasonable. And of course, a method has been revealed for how this could be done - but currently it requires Coyote's interference. I would like to submit that as another reason why the Court would try this - to try to mimic what Coyote can do, since they want to understand the basis for any etheric technology that they are using. I'd also like to mention that biological android is a bad name here. It's more of a genetic engineering and mind transference thing, not as much mechanical as 'android' would suggest.
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Post by calpal on Mar 6, 2015 3:00:42 GMT
Personally, I'm not inclined to believe that Kat was somehow artificially created, or at least is somehow more unique than what the robots are making her out to be (metaphorically and, in a sense, literally). I'm of the opinion that, if the author doesn't strongly hint towards a theory, then it isn't a plot element. I just can't see what's been in the story hinting, even remotely, towards the idea that Kat is a biological creation. If anything, I'm more inclined to believe that Kat, in this chapter, is going to hear about what they're doing and want to study these growth machines in detail. Which also builds on my other idea that Kat might actually start working for the Court, the same way Diego did. |
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Post by keef on Mar 7, 2015 22:39:21 GMT
What would it add if sweet Kat was grown in a vat? As said before, WOT is Kat is just a very clever girl, she is human. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Mar 7, 2015 23:19:37 GMT
What would it add if sweet Kat was grown in a vat? As said before, WOT is Kat is just a very clever girl, she is human. In GKC, being grown in a vat is interesting, but unremarkable. At least 25% of the students are vat grown. And being genetically human would still be consistent with WOT. I don't claim that the android theory is definitely true, just that it is interesting. |
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Post by keef on Mar 7, 2015 23:54:24 GMT
And being genetically human would still be consistent with WOT. OK, in a way. And I can't claim it's wrong. But it would really surprise me. (and that never happens in GKC  ) |
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Post by Daedalus on Mar 8, 2015 6:44:53 GMT
Although I agree with your interpretation, Tom's statement "she seems to be human" leaves a lot of room for doubt (shrug) |
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Post by arkadi on Mar 15, 2015 11:59:18 GMT
This is so obvious, I've not doubt it must have been pointed out before, but: Kat is clearly Kimiko Ross from Dresden Codak. We've simply yet to learn how the two universes are related.
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Post by Daedalus on Mar 16, 2015 0:55:00 GMT
This is so obvious, I've not doubt it must have been pointed out before, but: Kat is clearly Kimiko Ross from Dresden Codak. We've simply yet to learn how the two universes are related. I have made the parallel before several times, but never suggested they were the same. Hmmm... No, I don't think so personally. Kimiko's much more...pathosy than Kat, so far. |
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Post by The Anarch on Mar 16, 2015 1:53:30 GMT
This is so obvious, I've not doubt it must have been pointed out before, but: Kat is clearly Kimiko Ross from Dresden Codak. We've simply yet to learn how the two universes are related. I have made the parallel before several times, but never suggested they were the same. Hmmm... No, I don't think so personally. Kimiko's much more...pathosy than Kat, so far. More like Kat's looks and intelligence with Annie's social skills. The obvious conclusion then is that at some point between GKC and DC, Kat and Annie get fused. |
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Post by arkadi on Mar 16, 2015 20:38:57 GMT
I have made the parallel before several times, but never suggested they were the same. Hmmm... No, I don't think so personally. Kimiko's much more...pathosy than Kat, so far. More like Kat's looks and intelligence with Annie's social skills. The obvious conclusion then is that at some point between GKC and DC, Kat and Annie get fused. *Nods* There really is no other explanation. |
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Post by wombat on Mar 17, 2015 7:40:29 GMT
Okay, I'm fairly certain this would have already been mentioned, and feel free to link me to where it was because I'm not reading through this whole thread, but I just noticed the way in which the robots took Kat's statement "Love makes you act in strange ways."Which was... www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1451I know you had your finest minds analyze her words, but sweeties, I think you got off base with them. |
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 22, 2015 18:27:44 GMT
Speaking of shameless self-promotion...
Since there are lots of new people recently (#thanksTony) I thought I'd share my personal favorite theory with y'all.
*bump*
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Post by theleakingpen on Apr 22, 2015 22:11:42 GMT
Interesting, I was having similar thoughts (just finished archive binging this past weekend)
I read the first two pages and skimmed the rest, I didnt see it mentioned, as stated, robots are going to have to die and imprint to the ether.
Which means... they are going to need a guide all their own.
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Post by zimmyzims on Apr 22, 2015 22:25:00 GMT
Interesting, I was having similar thoughts (just finished archive binging this past weekend) I read the first two pages and skimmed the rest, I didnt see it mentioned, as stated, robots are going to have to die and imprint to the ether. and discussed. New members, please use the search tool. Which means... they are going to need a guide all their own. But this admittedly logical conclusion I can't remember having seen before. |
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Post by bedinsis on Apr 22, 2015 22:54:22 GMT
My theory is that once an entity has amassed enough faith/etheric energy to achieve godhood it works as a universal retcon-button, i.e. the history of how we arrived at that point is retroactively arranged so that the faith is true. And everyone will, if it's reasonable to assume they would have encountered them, have their memories rearranged so that their memories involved that god. What that would mean would be that there is one "true" history of what really happened at a certain point in time and all etherically created beings present at that time weren't in fact present, it's just that everything remembers them as being present once their etheric presence makes it so that they would have been present at that time point.
I further speculate (and here's where things get more crazy) that Kat does not exist. She was created once the researchers at Gunnerkrigg were able to document the process with which one achieves godhood, at which point the robots present came to the conclusion that the mechanical angel they already believed in must have been inspired by a real person. Given that Gunnerkrigg already was a legendary, yet rather secretive, faculty for learning and was created in humanity's search to achieve godhood, it would only be logical that belief that person that became their mechanical angel would be from that place. She was conveniently placed as the child of two already present faculty members, and believed to be friend with a real loner, who already was a bit legendary in that she gave a robot a choice and therefore the ability to choose its own destiny, not shackled by its programming, and because she had started a conversation with the Gillite woods, home of the god Coyote.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Apr 23, 2015 1:26:22 GMT
Which means... they are going to need a guide all their own. But this admittedly logical conclusion I can't remember having seen before. Isn't that what the ROTD verification bat verified? Annie was allowed in because she is a (somewhat reluctant) guide. I thought Kat was allowed in because as a Creator, she is also the afterlife guide for her creations. Cradle to grave responsibilities. |
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Post by theleakingpen on Apr 23, 2015 2:05:01 GMT
Interesting, I was having similar thoughts (just finished archive binging this past weekend) I read the first two pages and skimmed the rest, I didnt see it mentioned, as stated, robots are going to have to die and imprint to the ether. and discussed. New members, please use the search tool. sorry, that was bad phrasing, by saying, as stated, i was saying that I saw the comment that they are going to have to die and imprint, what I didnt see anyone mentioning in that chunk of discussion was the second part you quoted. Which means... they are going to need a guide all their own. But this admittedly logical conclusion I can't remember having seen before. |
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Post by theleakingpen on Apr 23, 2015 2:09:27 GMT
But this admittedly logical conclusion I can't remember having seen before. Isn't that what the ROTD verification bat verified? Annie was allowed in because she is a (somewhat reluctant) guide. I thought Kat was allowed in because as a Creator, she is also the afterlife guide for her creations. Cradle to grave responsibilities. I don't think so, I think the ankh symbol was the generic symbol for guide. I think kats symbol was basically a divine symbol, but not one that they recognized, but cleared her to enter as a god. Annie doesn't have a domain of souls she has control over, yet, unless we count those that no others want to reap as her domain (her mother, Jeanne). I think Annie is going to end up the robot reaper. Im thinking back to one of the treatises, with the two congruent triangles and the tree. on Kat's side, there was a person on a cross at the top of the hill, and a mass of headstones that became robot heads as they got closer. |
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Post by theleakingpen on Apr 23, 2015 2:17:55 GMT
bedinsis, maybe. I could totally see that coming, that kat was created as part of the experiment.
BTW, sudden thought... if wandering eye is a robot created by kat and placed at the beginning of time... and if an individuals impact upon the ether is based on the weight of their experiences on earth, their beliefs, emotions, memories.... What happens when The Wandering Eye eventually becomes able to die, and is taken to the ether? How much of an impact, especially ALL AT ONCE of those millions of years.
And since she remembers the time before man, before gods... what will that impact of pure knowledge of the reality of science have on the existing gods and their human belief derived claims?
I just have to say, I have been IMMENSELY enjoying this concept in the comic, and this discussion, as it actually dovetails in quite nicely with my own personal beliefs. I've long been an adherent of Heinlein's world as myth theory, and as a corollary to it, and some experiences as a kid, have come to a belief in, well, the power of belief, that things people believe have power, as well as the idea that there is no time component to this power. For example, its entirely possible that some of the "miracles" of the old and new testemant happened, and if so, that the power to create those miracles came in part from the belief of present day people. (which creates an interesting chicken and egg scenario, I know. )
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 23, 2015 7:32:40 GMT
if wandering eye is a robot created by kat  Would Tom lie to us?Probably. (Also, the edit button really helps for multi-quoting #protip) Which means... they are going to need a guide all their own. But this admittedly logical conclusion I can't remember having seen before. We've discussed this one before too: Well, if things continue to go the way they are going, she will probably become the new Creator, as well as their guide to the afterlife I think you're a bit off. Coyote's a god, but he's not a 'guide to the afterlife'. If anything, he's the creator of the afterlife, in that through belief in him, souls exist which can be guided to the afterlife, but there's only belief because there is some spark of soul already. It's recursive, but I strongly disbelieve that Kat is going to be a psychopomp. We've been pretty thorough over the last two years, haven't we? I further speculate (and here's where things get more crazy) that Kat does not exist. I will admit I haven't seen this perspective before. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Apr 23, 2015 13:51:49 GMT
But this admittedly logical conclusion I can't remember having seen before. We've discussed this one before too: I think you're a bit off. Coyote's a god, but he's not a 'guide to the afterlife'. If anything, he's the creator of the afterlife, in that through belief in him, souls exist which can be guided to the afterlife, but there's only belief because there is some spark of soul already. It's recursive, but I strongly disbelieve that Kat is going to be a psychopomp. Oh yeah, couldn't remember that we got to that as well, but sure, as said, it seemed like something that would be at least then be a readily available logical conclusion that would not be disagreed about just because of being left unmentioned. And as Jelly Jellybean said, yes, Kat's loose guide status was probably discussed in the verification bat page thread. But all I was 100% sure of was that the mass death of the robots was well foreseen long since.  We've been pretty thorough over the last two years, haven't we? Indeed. Hence, new members would do well to use the search tool. |
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Post by Sauzels on Nov 14, 2015 2:07:35 GMT
I'm trying to look at the links in the OP and it looks like spring.me has been bought out or something? The link to what Tom said about things developing souls just takes me to some sort of social medium.
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Post by Gotolei on Nov 14, 2015 3:23:45 GMT
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 14, 2015 3:47:29 GMT
I'm trying to look at the links in the OP and it looks like spring.me has been bought out or something? The link to what Tom said about things developing souls just takes me to some sort of social medium. The OP's link has now been fixed. |
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Post by calpal on Nov 14, 2015 22:49:56 GMT
Our holy scriptures are closer and closer to becoming truth. The truth shall vindicate us! But more importantly: yay, robo-religion chapters! My favourite part of Gunnerkrigg Court!
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Grabix
Junior Member
Posts: 76 
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Post by Grabix on Dec 5, 2015 23:08:24 GMT
I have wrote this in thread about Page 1600Somebody recognized other senses in that page, so this is probably not about that. However now I want to contribute to this thread a bit. Firstly I've found this: 1452 as you can see there is symbol of Fire-Elemental above Annie's symbol. But above symbol of Kat/Creator there is some symbol which very much looks like eye. I think that there is some serious connection between Kat and Tic-tocs. However I don't really believe in that explanation with Kat's lore retroactively creates Tic-tocs in the past, I think it would have happened only after Kat will really became a god. I think this is related to previous robot's deity. Because there was a divine being [646]. This is interesting one - robots already have had some religion, some myths and some how this myths had to create Tic-tocs. Maybe that was some prophecy about Kat coming? Because as I've said: Tic-tocs can grow [276].This kinda looks like story about Kat, about some divine beings who can create growing robots. On other hand... this is not how myths originated. Myths are created when people needs to explain something they do not understand. So maybe somebody needed to explain Tic-tocs and invented deity... who then somehow change the nature of Tic-tocs (so they can grow) and maybe it somehow have impact on Kat? Do creators of that story have to be humans? Or can they be robots? We often assume that robots do not interact with ether? But what does it mean? Can somebody explain WHY EVERY ROBOT RECOGNIZE KAT AS ANGEL? 221, 756, 637 They just see her and understand that she "is angel" - whatever that mean. Even SkyWatcher how was more than skeptical about very existence of angels. So how does it work? I think this is the most important question in scope of this whole robot-topic. One can assume that maybe this is somehow just programmed into them like this "She died and we did nothing". But Kat has her etheric form, so this is somehow related to the ether. It seems that robot can feel this etheric ... something. On other hand people of forest does not recognize Tic-tocs as etheric being. Kat does not feel ether very well. She even wasn't fooled be ROTD. But she have some odd insight into technology and was able to understood code of robots and a-bit understood Diego's code 887/ 888. Look at the symmetry between Kat and Annie. Kat belongs to Court, to technology, Annie belongs to Forest, to magic. Look again at page 1452, Annie is part-FireElemental so Kat is part- something. I think that ether itself have two aspects just like human mind - poetical one and strict/mathematical one. This is why human are able to create ether-using computers and Diego was able to create those golems. Today's robots are still connected to this part of ether by sharing this supernatural aspects of their code from Diego's code. This is why they are affected be Kat's etheric (but still very "mathematical") nature. About Kat becoming god ... I think she already is one a bit. Just like Annie. I mean not so powerful like Coyote, and maybe because of that cult, her power will rise. But it is not exactly what Court is about (Man's endeavour to become god (... BTW, what about /Robot's endeavour to become human/ ?)). She is already partially-etheric being. Other question: what is that extra part? A bit about symmetry: maybe Kat is part-golem? Because of dialog on page 883. |
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