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Post by snipertom on Jun 14, 2013 1:30:29 GMT
Actually, not to interject too much personal stuff, but that's pretty much my childhood, in a nutshell. I wouldn't say that I love my father in a traditional sense of the word or think of him as much of a father figure, but I have been able to catch up with him, and I forgive him. I discovered the pain of losing the most beautiful, wonderful person in the universe myself later on. I still don't think what he did was right, but I can understand why he made those choices. We are all only human (even if our soul is candy-coated in Fire Elemental). Was it wrong for Anthony to ditch his daughter without nary a call to say hello? Yes, without a doubt. Does Antimony (and the readers) have the right to think he's a dick? Totally! Anyone has that right, and would be justified in doing so. But we also, at the same time, have the right to feel empathy for another's pain. I guess that's why I'm so strongly playing Anthony's Advocate, in this case. Anthony could easily just turn out to be an unreasonable, selfish, jerk for all we know. But I haven't yet seen anything that makes him worthy of hate, at least for me, personally. A couple of posters have brought up Divine. I find the whole chapter too hard to interpret, given what we've seen. Remember, there was a freaky Renard monster in one of Zimmy's earlier visions, but that has yet to be of much significance. I find it too hard to say for certain that that was Antimony's father, or if he even had anything to do with it. The timing with the rocket and the scalpel is a little suspicious, but that's about it. That was a lot of words defending a fictional character. It sounds like Antimony has already forgiven him, or at least pretends she has. I guess you can't really run around with that kind of anger without it corroding you. I think she's making excuses for him, which is a bit different. I think she's hoping against hope that what she keeps telling herself is true and that it isn't that her father doesn't love or care about her. (That's not to say that he doesn't love or care about her, but from her perspective that must be hard to reconcile with his behaviour) So she's giving him the benefit of the doubt. Finding out that he doesn't love or care about her would be devastating. So, I hope that's not true! |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 14, 2013 7:47:36 GMT
It sounds like Antimony has already forgiven him, or at least pretends she has. I guess you can't really run around with that kind of anger without it corroding you. The most screwed-up people I've met in life all seem to have some sort of parent(s) issues. Maybe they had issues with their parents because as kids they were screwed up in some way to begin with but I suspect that humans are just hardwired to love their parents as a survival trait. A child who abandons parents is pretty much at the mercy of the environment therefore has higher survival chances when staying with the parents, even if they are abusive. So if your parents do stuff to you that is worthy of genuine hate you are just unable to process it completely and some transference or other coping mechanism has to happen.. In other words, even if you are normal-looking (high-functioning) that underlying conflict will pop out when circumstances would force you to confront the issue(s) and you go crackers in some way that helps you deal... Like nearly every serial killer movie shows. 0_0 That said, I'm still withholding final judgement on Anthony. He is probably neglectful, distant and emotionally unavailable but not abusive per se so I'm not wildspec'ing Antimony going crackers, but look at ch. 37 when Antimony confronts her situation with her father. Her anger/sorrow/whatever gets directed at herself for being upset instead of her father for leaving. Is easy to predict similar emotional outbursts when she is forced to confront the issue again, possibly directed at other convenient non-Anthony targets who don't deserve it, followed by apologies and genuine confusion over why she lashed out in the first place. Likely it will get worse the longer Anthony's gone. So the characters close to Antimony better batten down da hatches in the latter books.  |
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Post by GK Sierra on Jun 14, 2013 18:00:16 GMT
It sounds like Antimony has already forgiven him, or at least pretends she has. I guess you can't really run around with that kind of anger without it corroding you. The most screwed-up people I've met in life all seem to have some sort of parent(s) issues. Man, ain't that the truth... In that context, sooo many unpleasant interactions from the public-school phase of life make perfect sense. |
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Post by tc on Aug 13, 2017 9:11:37 GMT
With respect, I have to say this reflexive Tony-bashing has reached a point where I'm honestly beginning to wonder if we're reading the same comic. I can't envision a scenario in which he apologizes or feels remorse either. I literally cannot think of a single more wrenching expression of remorse by any character in the history of the comic than that which Tony expresses here: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1559What that says is an understandable response given that at that stage neither Kat nor the audience knew the whole story - or even most of it. He didn't abandon her. Neither did he blame nor resent her. He outright states that he didn't think she could bring herself to live with - as he saw it - "The man who killed her mother" right here : www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1549 . So yes, he left out of his own sense of guilt, and arguably he misread how Annie would have seen things; but given the circumstances, that's rather understandable. I don't think it's a coincidence that when Reynardine revealed the truth about Surma's death to Annie, her initial reaction (i.e. blaming herself) was exactly the same as Tony's. Because it was what Surma wanted, and Tony loved her so much that her wishes were sacrosanct to him : www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1548Respectfully, the comic has explicitly stated several times that Tony deferred to Surma's wishes in every single instance shown. 1st, Tony knows the consequences, and fathers a child with Surma anyway. Selfish as fuck. 2nd, Tony is unaware of the consequences, which paints him in a slightly better light... You're completely ignoring the possibility (or, I'd argue, probability) that Surma saw something in Tony which made her feel that having a child with him was worth the probable consequences. Easy. Love - of the kind that Annie is (as yet) too young to fully comprehend. This whole notion of Tony as some kind of arrogant, emotionless manipulator utterly flies in the face of everything we've been shown of him following his initial return (and his initial treatment of Annie). Yes, that whole chapter was intended to make us in the audience assume the worst of Tony - but almost everything we've seen since implies that was an intentional storytelling misdirection to serve the subsequent reveals. As far as I can tell the key is in this page : www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1558Tony says the Court threatened to "cast [Annie] out - banish her from the Court and the program entirely". He's not just talking about Annie getting kicked out of school; the Court threatened to expel Annie from the entire *settlement* surrounding the Court. In effect, they were threatening to banish Annie to the outside world, which for her would be the equivalent of Zimmy's nightmares, but from which for Annie *there would be no escape* for the rest of her life and Tony would be powerless to help her. On page 1549 he clearly states that because he failed to save Surma, he considered himself unworthy both of Annie's love and unworthy of being a part of her life. If following the Court's demands resulted in Annie hating him, as far as he was concerned he deserved it. As an aside, people incapable of strong emotions don't tend to wear expressions like this : www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1554PS. There seems to be a lot of speculation over Tony's expression all the way back here : www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=813 . All we can be certain we're being shown is a man who has been crying. Some people are reading resentment into the glance Tony gives Annie, and interpreting Surma's "He still loves you very much" as confirmation. However, in "Annie And The Fire" Tony implies strongly that he didn't feel worthy of Annie's love, having failed to save Surma's life - and in that context Surma's words take on a very different meaning. |
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Post by keef on Aug 13, 2017 15:24:05 GMT
With respect, I have to say this reflexive Tony-bashing has reached a point where I'm honestly beginning to wonder if we're reading the same comic. With respect, yes, you're reading the same comic, but four years later. |
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Post by The Anarch on Aug 13, 2017 16:09:16 GMT
Haha, I was wondering why I was suddenly getting likes on a post I made in 2013!  |
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Post by snipertom on Aug 17, 2017 13:22:02 GMT
I guess the cult of tony has been necroed now that he has demonstrated past ability to laugh
hahaha!
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Post by ohthatone on Aug 17, 2017 15:46:18 GMT
Yeah, I've been sitting next to the same guy at work for YEARS now, and he STILL hasn't asked me out. You may need to try sitting in his lap. And staring directly into his eyes. Intensely. I mean, this has never actually worked for me before, and I've got a long string of bothersome restraining orders now, but I'm fully convinced that the theory is sound. Ah, from the Mitzi/Mordecai school of flirting. Well it worked for him, not sure what you're doing wrong?
back on topic: We are just starting to see glimpses of Tony's ability to be a human. I think given enough time we, and Surma, will see this whole new side of Tony that we had no idea existed and the question of "how did TonyxSurma happen???" won't be such a foreign concept. Even right now, Tony is surprisingly chill about the fact his partner is only just now figuring out what their month long, probably dangerous, expedition is about and is probably ill-prepared for it. Eggers though, for as much as we've seen him, I get the feeling his and Surma's personalities would actually clash quite a bit, especially as he grows into his protector of the Court role. I get the feeling Surma's recklessness and impulsiveness would wear on him and he wouldn't appreciate it as much as Tony "FOR SCIENCE!" Carver. I don't have any solid evidence for this, just a feeling I get.
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Post by Per on Aug 20, 2017 15:12:54 GMT
We are just starting to see glimpses of Tony's ability to be a human. As we all know, severe introverts and people on the autism spectrum aren't humans. But they can change! If they choose to! |
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Post by philman on Aug 21, 2017 8:30:11 GMT
Wow now that's a big Necro.
The comic has come a long way in 4 years hasn't it!
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Post by ohthatone on Aug 21, 2017 13:34:01 GMT
We are just starting to see glimpses of Tony's ability to be a human. As we all know, severe introverts and people on the autism spectrum aren't humans. But they can change! If they choose to! Sorry, that was meant to be flippant, not offensive. I could easily be as introverted as Tony and I know I don't feel human when I'm incapable of doing something as simple as comforting a friend who is upset. |
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Post by csj on Aug 21, 2017 14:51:03 GMT
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Post by tc on Aug 22, 2017 6:28:15 GMT
With respect, yes, you're reading the same comic, but four years later. Oh, fiddlesticks. That'll learn me for reading so late and getting so wound up I reply to the wrong thread...  That said, a lot of said reflexive hate still seems to be present amongst some readers.... |
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Post by Per on Aug 22, 2017 12:02:12 GMT
Sorry, that was meant to be flippant, not offensive. Then I apologize for any sarcasm-based inconvenience. It's not even that I feel strongly the fictitious Tonies of the world should be championed, but it sometimes seems to me he's mocked and condemned using conventional moral and behavioural filters that may or may not apply, and this would be called out in some other cases, but seldom for the Tonies. (Maybe there is some self-selection effect among People Who Care Strongly About Webcomic Characters.) |
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 25, 2017 7:30:35 GMT
Really just using this post to comment rather than responding to the poster: Much as Eggers is a bit weird and all broken by rejection, I can see how he and Surma hooked up. I cannot understand for the life of me how Surma and Tony would end up together unless a rebound for Surma or she was in some way coerced or "convinced". Especially seeing as he's abandoned the child that she was so attached to, and was always the kind who could do that. Thoughts? While I feel Tony benefits more from the criticism since he is still alive and can make good, I would think if Surma cared that much about Annie that she would have: A. Wanted to prepare Tony for her passing so that he wouldn't be so emotionally compromised. Maybe telling him that as long as their daughter is able to grow up healthy and well adjusted, her death won't be in vain. B. Getting back in contact with Don and Anja one last time to ask them to take custody of Annie. Now maybe even a pep talk wouldn't appease Tony even if she stress that a part of her will live through Annie and all that, but if she was truly attached to Annie, then surely her well being and giving her a home where she'd be loved would be top priority even if it means swallowing her pride and resuming contact with her friends. Not to mention, that as others have stated, even if Surma didn't feel like Annie could understand the circumstances behind her death she could still have left a video recording explaining things to her when she is older, namely how she is not at fault for her passing. Heck, looking at this post: Then again, I think Surma actually wanted to go through with it and give her life to her kid. If she didn't, the fire would die with her. Perhaps its been passed down for many generations, and she felt an obligation. Perhaps fire elementals only concern themselves with having a child to carry on the fire and they figure it's up to the child to make it through life without their help. Though considering how different we've seen him with either Don or currently (at this time) the he presents himself around her, maybe Surma's impression of Tony not too long after impresses her to the point that she overestimated him to the point that she figures that he'd be able to cope with her passing and focus on being a parent. Anthony left Antimony at the Court, which will give her food, shelter, and a good education. However, he also left Antimony. Imagine being that young, having your mother die, and then there's not even another shoulder to cry on because your other parent has decided to leave you at what amounts to a boarding school, without explanation, and then won't return your calls. Plus there's again the matter of having the option to give up custody of the child to someone who can be trusted to take care of them. That doesn't mean that Annie would be without problems later in life, but having Don and Anja to care for her much sooner could have minimized the severity of them and even help her to develop more trust in adult figures. It sounds like Antimony has already forgiven him, or at least pretends she has. I guess you can't really run around with that kind of anger without it corroding you. I think she's making excuses for him, which is a bit different. I think she's hoping against hope that what she keeps telling herself is true and that it isn't that her father doesn't love or care about her. (That's not to say that he doesn't love or care about her, but from her perspective that must be hard to reconcile with his behaviour) So she's giving him the benefit of the doubt. Finding out that he doesn't love or care about her would be devastating. So, I hope that's not true! True, and as I suggested not to long ago, I have to wonder if some of her previous attempts to defend him are brought on by pity. Namely the fact that even when she was young she already recognized that his peers didn't like or care for him, so it was her duty as his daughter to stick up for him. |
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