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Post by louisxiv on Jun 9, 2013 22:51:02 GMT
Another thing not on the ToDo list yet, and I'm boggled I haven't thought of it here or Misfile, is tag, and indeed page, internal crosslink references. All Tag and Page entries will be getting an id to facilitate this, ASAP - though not right now as it is near midnight, local, and I hear the distant, banshee wailing, call of the dayjob...  |
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Post by snipertom on Jun 10, 2013 0:29:55 GMT
Proposed Feature List (pity Proboads doesn't do Markdown) Looking at those, some queries and comments: Spoiler tag? The whole site is a massive spoiler, so what is this for? Categorisation of tags: I'm thinking of adding a type: to the entries in the tags list, and have the conversion script trim it and add it to the tag's html class. That leaves it flexible to add classes if need arises; just a matter of tweaking the css if a visible difference is wanted. Dunno if we'd need to support multi-typed tags? Anyway, off the top of the head e.g: loc:AnimalCells the secret Court large animal holding cells
loc:AnimalLab a Court research lab
cha:Anja Anja Donlan, Kat's mother
loc:Annan Annan Waters, a wide river in a deep gorge
cha:Annie Antimony Carver, our protagonist
sym:AntimonySymbol The alchemical symbol for antimony; associated with Annie and Surma
What the tags classifications mean might need some discussion: I don't think we are tagging plots at all, and even identifying them might be 'interesting'. Ideas would be things like Etherium, God? Might be better analysed elsewhere than the tagging system. KISS may apply? Links to Wiki yes, for now that's be just a matter of including the htlm, though we could shortform that. Problem is being sure there's actually a wiki entry at the other end. Tag counts on my ToDo list, in my copious spare time  Tag Chapter Cover - just do it? I was surprised at the suggestion people shouldn't and have just got on with it. Hoverable tags - easy to do with abbr, or some .js (I assume), but think whether it is a good UI idea - personally I find stuff popping up when and where ever I rest my pointer rather irritating. That is the point of having selectable tags with highlighting of the def'n. Maybe rightclick, but: discoverability? Clickable tags that generate ... Don't understand this one "save" button serious sanitization required... so far with the possible tag classification I had the following possible format: AdminBot C A secretarial robot who sits at the Admin desk at RobotHQ
AlchemyChart P An alchemical chart
Aly C Alistair Kershaw; went to the Forest
AlyShirt P A shirt belonging to Aly, which apparently Kat has stolen
Angel I What Robot refers to Kat as, as he believes she is some sort of semi-religious figure
AnimalCells S the secret Court large animal holding cells
Where: - C Character/character type
- P Prop/Item
- S Setting
- I Idea/symbol/concept eg antimonysymbol, angel
- A Activity/emotion eg Archery, Etherics
- Y Special Page type eg bonus, cover, treatise
half of this is just me reminding myself of things to do or try out btw! I'll probably implement a demo run of the tag counts sometime in the next couple of days The tag helper stuff won't make any sense to anyone until i make my... AMAZING REVEAL of what this is like (and needs me to make it pretty much perfect before use) - and the hoverable tags thing, save button etc are definitely NOT for the main site at all. The tag helper also would be something that I only email to a select few (ie the team) for reasons that will become clear when I send it  |
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Post by snipertom on Jun 10, 2013 0:30:53 GMT
Another thing not on the ToDo list yet, and I'm boggled I haven't thought of it here or Misfile, is tag, and indeed page, internal crosslink references. All Tag and Page entries will be getting an id to facilitate this, ASAP - though not right now as it is near midnight, local, and I hear the distant, banshee wailing, call of the dayjob... HELL YES! |
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Post by snipertom on Jun 10, 2013 14:22:09 GMT
OK so I've tagged the chapter covers and put their various icon descriptions in the comments.
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Post by jasmijn on Jun 10, 2013 20:27:17 GMT
so far with the possible tag classification I had the following possible format: AdminBot C A secretarial robot who sits at the Admin desk at RobotHQ
AlchemyChart P An alchemical chart
Aly C Alistair Kershaw; went to the Forest
AlyShirt P A shirt belonging to Aly, which apparently Kat has stolen
Angel I What Robot refers to Kat as, as he believes she is some sort of semi-religious figure
AnimalCells S the secret Court large animal holding cells
Where: - C Character/character type
- P Prop/Item
- S Setting
- I Idea/symbol/concept eg antimonysymbol, angel
- A Activity/emotion eg Archery, Etherics
- Y Special Page type eg bonus, cover, treatise
I think three characters are better than one here, because 'cha', 'ite', 'loc', 'sym', 'act', 'spe' are easier to remember than just letters (and easier to read: "wait, what was "P" again?"). Edit: we could even do full words. A bit more typing, but much easier to remember and read. I suggest 'char' (because 'character' is too long), 'item', 'setting', 'symbol', 'activity', 'special'. |
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Post by snipertom on Jun 10, 2013 20:57:26 GMT
And I think chucking them at the end would be better too...
AdminBot A secretarial robot who sits at the Admin desk at RobotHQ char
AlchemyChart An alchemical chart prop
Aly Alistair Kershaw; went to the Forest char
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Post by philman on Jun 10, 2013 21:01:54 GMT
If they are at the end, they should have some sort of parentheses around them? or is the tab enough to distinguish them from the rest of the text?
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Post by louisxiv on Jun 10, 2013 21:50:07 GMT
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Post by louisxiv on Jun 10, 2013 21:54:58 GMT
If they are at the end, they should have some sort of parentheses around them? or is the tab enough to distinguish them from the rest of the text? Too easy to forget at the end there. It doesn't matter for parsing but as we're fallible humans filling that data I think that a: tag<tab>class<tab>definition format will be easier to get right. The class field should be a word, rather than an abbreviation, for much the same reason. |
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Post by philman on Jun 10, 2013 22:08:55 GMT
If they are at the end, they should have some sort of parentheses around them? or is the tab enough to distinguish them from the rest of the text? Too easy to forget at the end there. It doesn't matter for parsing but as we're fallible humans filling that data I think that a: tag<tab>class<tab>definition format will be easier to get right. The class field should be a word, rather than an abbreviation, for much the same reason. If we're going on human fallibility, then the class may be better off an abbreviated word, a full word may get mistaken for part of the definition (Character, Place, Symbol), especially if there are multiple classes for a tag, whereas a shortened word (Char, Plac, Symb) would look more obviously like a different thing. I agree that single letter abbreviations (C, P, S) are much too ambiguous though. |
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Post by philman on Jun 10, 2013 23:42:48 GMT
Also uploaded ch30 but just realised I left a placeholder in chapter 30 by mistake. does anyone know the name of jeanne's lover from the forest?
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Post by snipertom on Jun 11, 2013 0:07:17 GMT
I don't think he has a known name
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Post by snipertom on Jun 11, 2013 0:07:50 GMT
Too easy to forget at the end there. It doesn't matter for parsing but as we're fallible humans filling that data I think that a: tag<tab>class<tab>definition format will be easier to get right. The class field should be a word, rather than an abbreviation, for much the same reason. If we're going on human fallibility, then the class may be better off an abbreviated word, a full word may get mistaken for part of the definition (Character, Place, Symbol), especially if there are multiple classes for a tag, whereas a shortened word (Char, Plac, Symb) would look more obviously like a different thing. I agree that single letter abbreviations (C, P, S) are much too ambiguous though. I like the shorthand too |
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Post by louisxiv on Jun 11, 2013 17:28:56 GMT
Character index updated 1911/1208 pages indexed, 304 tags defined. Edit: apparently no one spotted the error in the count... or were too polite to mention it?
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Post by louisxiv on Jun 11, 2013 17:58:44 GMT
If we're going on human fallibility, then the class may be better off an abbreviated word, a full word may get mistaken for part of the definition (Character, Place, Symbol), especially if there are multiple classes for a tag, whereas a shortened word (Char, Plac, Symb) would look more obviously like a different thing. I agree that single letter abbreviations (C, P, S) are much too ambiguous though. I like the shorthand too Ok, shorthand, no problem with that. I'm still a little doubtful that it'll add a lot though and it moves away from the simplicity of tag & definition Anyway, what do we want to do with this information - multicolour tags? |
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Post by snipertom on Jun 11, 2013 21:09:07 GMT
should be able to filter by "characters", "settings", etc; i propose that we do demos before making it live though, in case it's messy
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Post by philman on Jun 11, 2013 21:35:49 GMT
I think the fewer the number of filters/classes the better really, to avoid confusion. For example:
Place (Gillitie, AnimalLab, YoungsPark, KatsWorkshop)
Character- (Annie, Kat, Donny, Coyote, Robot, Anwyn)
Etherical- (include things like Ethrics and Etherium, but also Bip, Zimmingham, BlinkerStone, etc)
Scientific- (Include robotics, as well as other sciency things such as Chemicals, Trains, Computer)
OneOff- could be useful for comedy tags that people may search for but only appear once (PartyHat, MoonPrint, NapoleonHat, etc)
Symbol- Symbols, alchemical and otherwise (AntimonySymbol, LeadSymbol, CourtSymbol, etc)
Misc- Others (Fire, Monument, Rain, Stars, Moon, etc)
And yes, somesort of multicoloured thing would be good, hence why a small no of classes would work best
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Post by louisxiv on Jun 11, 2013 21:57:29 GMT
If it is just a matter of restricting visible tags in the index by class then that's conceptually the same as restricting by 1st letter, putting it in snipertom's .js court, I think? IFF we have a limited number of classes THEN coloured tags? But I'm really uneasy about anything much more than Place / Character / Symbol / Other(Unclassed) - I think the rest of the proposed classes are too susceptible to debate, and the Index is not the place to 'settle by definition', such debate. |
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Post by louisxiv on Jun 11, 2013 21:58:19 GMT
Aha! just got tag counts working. Would have been a bit quicker if I'd used the right fscking brackets in the first place, an hour ago.
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Post by louisxiv on Jun 11, 2013 22:20:06 GMT
Quibble: Black Dogs
Someone has tagged all the Black Dogs as psychopomps (or, indeed, psychopombs). Is there an in-Gunnerkrigg basis for this? My impression was that the Black Dogs of the British Isles page was just a few of the mythical (darkish) dogs, not necessarily psychopomps. One of them is, Moddey-Dhoo from the Good Hope scenes, but I doubt the others.
The Somerset 'Gurt Dog', by the way, is just dialect for Big Dog. As I recall from my distant Somerset childhood "gurt" is big, "gurt big" is larger, and "gurt great" is very big; I do recall being reproved for referring to a "gurt great bridge" once upon a time (a small-ish railway viaduct across a minor country road as I now recall it, but I was little). Of course the Somerset for a really large thing is the simple and evocative "Oh bugger Oi!"
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Post by philman on Jun 11, 2013 23:15:10 GMT
Quibble: Black Dogs Someone has tagged all the Black Dogs as psychopomps (or, indeed, psychopombs). Is there an in-Gunnerkrigg basis for this? My impression was that the Black Dogs of the British Isles page was just a few of the mythical (darkish) dogs, not necessarily psychopomps. One of them is, Moddey-Dhoo from the Good Hope scenes, but I doubt the others. The Somerset 'Gurt Dog', by the way, is just dialect for Big Dog. As I recall from my distant Somerset childhood "gurt" is big, "gurt big" is larger, and "gurt great" is very big; I do recall being reproved for referring to a "gurt great bridge" once upon a time (a small-ish railway viaduct across a minor country road as I now recall it, but I was little). Of course the Somerset for a really large thing is the simple and evocative "Oh bugger Oi!" As with alot of the single page tags, I assumed we were going to go through later and remove or merge many of them into other tags. The other Black Dogs could for example be mentioned in the description of Moddey-Dhoo, or at least in the post # description of the Black Dogs bonus page if we are going to implement searching via descriptions as well. RE: tag classes, etherical and scientific were just off the cuff suggestions, there is alot of overlap I agree. But Other is going to be a massive class if we just have Place, Character, Symbol and Other. |
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Post by louisxiv on Jun 11, 2013 23:18:37 GMT
Aha! just got tag counts working. Would have been a bit quicker if I'd used the right fscking brackets in the first place, an hour ago. Spoke too soon. While the first few tags I've checked match a hand count, I suspect Annie[1409] is not quite correct for 1208 pages. Tomorrow... |
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Post by louisxiv on Jun 11, 2013 23:25:40 GMT
RE: tag classes, etherical and scientific were just off the cuff suggestions, there is alot of overlap I agree. But Other is going to be a massive class if we just have Place, Character, Symbol and Other. Is there is anything wrong with pulling out clearly uncontroversial tag classes such as Place, Character, Symbol, while leaving a mass of debatable/too difficult tags alone? |
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Post by GK Sierra on Jun 12, 2013 1:01:35 GMT
RE: tag classes, etherical and scientific were just off the cuff suggestions, there is alot of overlap I agree. But Other is going to be a massive class if we just have Place, Character, Symbol and Other. Is there is anything wrong with pulling out clearly uncontroversial tag classes such as Place, Character, Symbol, while leaving a mass of debatable/too difficult tags alone? As long as its addressed eventually, sure. Otherwise "Other" is just "Everything Else". |
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Post by snipertom on Jun 12, 2013 2:10:49 GMT
Re the black dogs being labelled "psychopomps", that was mainly the reference to the moddey dhoo being on that page; the Wikipedia page does imply though that many are psychopomps. Gurt Dog is also referred to as a specific being. Additionally I tagged them all by name as they're something that could conceivably be searched for. Is there is anything wrong with pulling out clearly uncontroversial tag classes such as Place, Character, Symbol, while leaving a mass of debatable/too difficult tags alone? As long as its addressed eventually, sure. Otherwise "Other" is just "Everything Else". The simplest thing would be to tag all the uncontroversial tags first then see how much remains in "other" and see if any other major categories stand out. |
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Post by snipertom on Jun 12, 2013 2:18:26 GMT
Additionally, I agree we should do the tag justification and merging after the pages are all tagged and even probably after the second pass so that a) we don't get bogged down and b) we are all familiar with which tags are around and c) we have the richest set of tags (easier to merge than separate!)
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Post by snipertom on Jun 12, 2013 2:18:40 GMT
Additionally, I agree we should do the tag justification and merging after the pages are all tagged and even probably after the second pass so that a) we don't get bogged down and b) we are all familiar with which tags are around and c) we have the richest set of tags (easier to merge than separate!)
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Post by louisxiv on Jun 12, 2013 6:40:03 GMT
Hmm. Rather than a separate field for class tags for character / location / symbol / etc why not just add a standard string to the description field so it can be pulled up by the text search: [char] [loc] and so on?
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Post by snipertom on Jun 12, 2013 9:34:57 GMT
because people won't automatically know what a char or loc is?
It'll probably be easier if we hold off on this idea until much later and I make a demo and have a vote?
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Post by philman on Jun 12, 2013 9:53:50 GMT
I agree, hold off until we've finished all the initial tagging and done a second pass at least, that will consolidate the tags somewhat anyway. Let's not get too ahead of ourselves! We can make up several ideas and see which works best.
Speaking of the second pass of the tags, how are we going to handle this? People going over chapters that they didn't do the first time around? to make sure someone didn't miss something or someone was tagging something in a weird way.
Also there are two main tasks in the second pass, re-tagging things that were missed in the index file, and consolidation of the tags in the altags file with more consistent descriptions and merging of many of them.
I guess the first one is more important and will lead naturally to the second anyway.
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