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Post by blahzor on Nov 28, 2012 13:31:13 GMT
Does this suggest that Jones could actually be the product of human imaginations that don't exist yet? She doesn't seem to fit into any current mythology, so she must exist because of stories that will be told sometime in the future. i'm thinking she is the stories told by science. As we claim we know how things happened around the time when the planet was formed. And if she was created by stories of science where else would you be then a place devoted to it on a grand scale not known to the rest of the planet. As Coyote is staying near a prime spot to keep himself in power
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Post by darlos9d on Nov 28, 2012 16:04:54 GMT
Does this suggest that Jones could actually be the product of human imaginations that don't exist yet? She doesn't seem to fit into any current mythology, so she must exist because of stories that will be told sometime in the future. i'm thinking she is the stories told by science. As we claim we know how things happened around the time when the planet was formed. And if she was created by stories of science where else would you be then a place devoted to it on a grand scale not known to the rest of the planet. As Coyote is staying near a prime spot to keep himself in power If she represented our notion of the environment before humanity actually existed, wouldn't she go back further than the Earth?
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Post by ferkle on Nov 28, 2012 16:34:36 GMT
There are huge causality issues here that physics has only imperfectly worked out to date. But there is a far larger implication involved. It means that Jones CAN STILL BE A ROBOT!
Mystery solved.
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Post by exdevlin on Nov 28, 2012 17:02:55 GMT
I'm a little scared by how much of this forum's speculation has held up magnificently to the comic's progress after the "several eons ago" backwards flashback.
... Will I find true love? Will I marry a prince?
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Post by blahzor on Nov 28, 2012 17:28:23 GMT
i'm thinking she is the stories told by science. As we claim we know how things happened around the time when the planet was formed. And if she was created by stories of science where else would you be then a place devoted to it on a grand scale not known to the rest of the planet. As Coyote is staying near a prime spot to keep himself in power If she represented our notion of the environment before humanity actually existed, wouldn't she go back further than the Earth? we are more "certain" about our planet and it's creation then space and the time before it
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Post by aaroncampbell on Nov 28, 2012 17:40:00 GMT
I'm not buying it that Jones is the same thing as Coyote, what mythology is she from? Anyway, she has presented it as a theory, and does not seem to agree with it Something to remember/consider: Coyote does not exist! I'm not trying to be funny here. Seriously, go back and look at Coyote's theory and Annie's discussion with Ysengrin afterward (it's 10 pages altogether, before Ysengrin loses it.) It's interesting reading it all at once rather than spread out over weeks, and especially now in light of what we've heard now from Jones. If Coyote's origin is correct, then his theory itself is yet another comforting story stemming ultimately from the mind of man, placing an answer where he does not find one. It is only as true/real/strong as Coyote is.
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Post by aaroncampbell on Nov 28, 2012 17:44:11 GMT
Regarding Jones' comments in the last panel today, it is evident that while she is confident in her memory, observation and physical experiences over her period of existance, she has some reservations about either the basis of Coyote's theory or the extent of man's power over the plane of existence. I think one course of conversation that might be helpful here would be to discuss the recent modifications on the moon, as a physically verifiable example of the human mind's power to shape the world. I very much enjoyed the earlier discussions between Anja, Annie and Kat regarding the science/etherics dichotomy, and would love to have a version of that here between Annie and Jones. Given Jones' inability to use blinker stones (and presumably her insensitivity to the etheric world in general,) it would truly be a major test for a medium-in-training to delve this issue and somehow come to an understanding of the way of things that is mutually graspable for a nearly purely physical being, a nearly purely etheric being, and the humans who look like the first and power the second.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 28, 2012 17:55:00 GMT
I know that Tom said that he sort of makes things up as he goes along, but the basic outline for the chapter itself is planned before he starts doing the art. It could be that Tom definitely had Jones in mind and planted that there early on so he could reference it later. It could also be that he just put that there because he thought it was cryptic enough to keep everyone guessing while he figured out how to tie it into the story later. Interesting theory. I don't have links handy, unfortunately, but I do recall Tom answering questions about those old glowing photos. Regarding their plot relevance, Tom initially said the photos were foreshadowing for a subplot that he wasn't certain he could actually work into the main comic. Some months or a year later (well after Jones was introduced), Tom was asked about the photos again, and outright said that he had dropped the subplot where they would have become relevant. That said, there's no reason why Tom couldn't decide to make the photos relevant again, by working them into a completely different subplot. On a note completely unrelated to plot relevance, Tom also said the glowing photos were a reference to the film The Peanut Butter Solution. EDIT: And regarding Tom making stuff up as he goes, I recall him stating once that he knows (in fact, he knew from the beginning) how he wants the story to end. He's just uncertain on how he'll get the story to that point. He also said that he never introduces a mystery to the story without already knowing its answer.
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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 28, 2012 18:50:48 GMT
Could Jones retroactively imagine herself? Error: division by zero detected Purging...
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Post by legion on Nov 28, 2012 19:10:27 GMT
Could Jones retroactively imagine herself? Error: division by zero detected Purging... It doesn't have to be a division by zero situation: her imagination just replaced the primary cause of her existence.
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Post by jasmijn on Nov 28, 2012 19:42:49 GMT
Speculation time! I'm a little scared by how much of this forum's speculation has held up magnificently to the comic's progress after the "several eons ago" backwards flashback. ... Will I find true love? Will I marry a prince? Yes and yes, but not the kind of prince you're thinking of.
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Post by darlos9d on Nov 28, 2012 19:47:22 GMT
Speculation time! I'm a little scared by how much of this forum's speculation has held up magnificently to the comic's progress after the "several eons ago" backwards flashback. ... Will I find true love? Will I marry a prince? Yes and yes, but not the kind of prince you're thinking of. ... finger Prince?
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varil
New Member
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Post by varil on Nov 28, 2012 23:12:16 GMT
I don't but it. The theory seems too...simple, somehow. I suspect that it is either a half-truth, or an incomplete one.
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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 28, 2012 23:37:10 GMT
Error: division by zero detected Purging... It doesn't have to be a division by zero situation: her imagination just replaced the primary cause of her existence. That would be terrifying. Although it could be a blessing if you had a shady past and wanted to retroactively spiff it up before you ran for office or something.
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Post by Nnelg on Nov 28, 2012 23:39:01 GMT
You know what I think?
I think we're never going to get a definitive answer to whether Coyote is "right" or not.
Which is kind of the point.
I think there's going to be no explanation other than the one we read into it.
The real question is... Is the answer we come up with (whatever that may be) correct because we came up with it, or did we come up with it because it was correct?
In the end, though, it doesn't really matter. Jones is Jones. That explains enough, doesn't it?
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Post by Nnelg on Nov 28, 2012 23:47:32 GMT
Jones is Jones. That explains enough, doesn't it? Heh, I really like the way the "Science vs Etherial Tenet" theme we see in the comic is actually being played out on the forum. ;D In fact, I'm just going to flat-out say it: There is no explanation for all of this.The "Human Belief Creating Reality" thing isn't real. It's just one more things humans thought up of.
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Nov 28, 2012 23:56:48 GMT
Let's talk about the nature of a belief driven world for a bit.
As a convenient example, I'm going to drag out The Elder Scrolls universe. Particularly, the concept of CHIM. To properly understand CHIM and how it ties in to TESverse, you'd have to read the many pages of people slicing apart in game texts and theorying and such things. I'll try to keep it as brief as possible, but do mind I'm keeping it simple. Don't yell at me if I over simplify things.
CHIM is realizing you are the dream of the Godhead. That you, and the whole world, are just this dream. In this way, you are the same exact thing as someone else. Even you and the rock and the sun are not seperate things. You are the dream, and the dream is you. That I is we, and realizing the great wheel is also the tower. What happens here is one of two things. You can either successfully maintain your individuality and become a waking dreamer, or zero sum and cease to be thanks to the conflicting natures of "I exist" and "I am not real". If you don't zero sum, you don't become the godhead or anything. The Godhead is still asleep, you are merely a small portion of the godhead that has woken and claimed individuality in the dream.
Now here's the thing. You can read about CHIM in the games. You can pick up a book, crack it open, and read the books IN GAME. On shelves and in libraries and in private collections. Vivec has a line of books all about discussing CHIM, and any character in universe can read them. They're actually quite popular reading, if I'm not mistaken. It's not like the iconography behind all this is hidden either. You have the amulet of kings as a known thing, and how Talos is on record of CHIMING the jungle in to a more tame and mild countryside and forest to make a capital out of. The knowledge is naturally limited to scholars(being a medieval society), but you don't have a bunch of waking dreamers remodling the world and being CHIM CHIM CHIM.
The fact is, even if you read and understand these things intellectually, you aren't automatically going to be propelled to godstatus or zero sum. It's about belief and deeper understanding. You could pound your head on the raw facts your whole life and never get anywhere. Believing, well and truly believing, is a deep and profound experience. Vivec says we are all a dream, and he can bind the world to his whim to prove what he's saying. Yet, from your perspective, it all looks rather real. You breath the air and drink the water. You feel pain. You have your own thoughts. This is a nigh impossible factor to fight, and I'd guess trying to overcome it completely (and failing) is what causes zero sum. Gaining full belief and understanding of the truth yet still unable to deny what you've known your whole life. The two conflict and you wink out of existence.
Consider what a belief driven world would mean in this context. Do you think humans could suddenly believe the sun in to being a giant rubber duck? Believe the world in to having ended ten years ago? Believe themselves in to having the ability to fly? There are clear limits here, and contradictory stories also become a nonissue in this manner. Humans are powerful.. but the same mind that creates that belief also limits it. Even if no single part of the world was absolutely true, eventually you'd settle in a collective truth. That collective experience and belief wound then become unbending by simple fact of how hard it is to disbelieve. I could keep going throwing theories out, but I believe I've made my point.
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Post by Nnelg on Nov 29, 2012 1:50:43 GMT
Let's talk about the nature of a belief driven world for a bit. I think that too many people are assuming that the Gunnerverse follows Pratchettian Theology. Or even that Coyote's Great Secret is Pratchettian. For starters, Coyote referenced his source as human imagination and intellect, not human belief. But regardless: in Pratchettian Theology, human belief actually causes the subject of belief to exist. But do you remember what Coyote's words were?Coyote effectively claimed he was a mass hallucination. A figment that only exists in the collective human psyche. He isn't saying that humans have the power to change reality, only their own perception of it. It's like the Fed-Ex arrow, or the Man on the Moon. You could go your whole life without noticing it, but once you do you'll never look at it the same way again. Try imagining what this effect would be times a trillion, applied across all of humanity. The human mind can't comprehend that much, so it just rationalizes with a colorful dog and a tree-wolf.
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Nov 29, 2012 6:36:39 GMT
That's a good point, but I think what I said still applies to an extent.
Imagination only goes so far. The very mind that creates it binds it by the very same methods. There is certainly a great deal of wiggle room in Gunnerverse, but the question is HOW MUCH. A few people here almost talk in a way that seems like it should be able to do just about anything.
Even further, if it's merely a mass hallucination, there is no cause for concerns about conflicting mythology at all. None of this can effect what's actually there. Ever. Even the print on the moon isn't really there. It's just an image overlaid on reality of a thumbprint on the moon. If what you say is correct, of course.
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Post by Nnelg on Nov 29, 2012 7:08:41 GMT
Right. One could argue the shock to astronomers didn't come when ridges and valleys suddenly appeared on the moon; it came when astronomers spontaneously realized the ridges and valleys that were already there look a lot like a fingerprint.
And of course, this is just Coyote's theory. It's not necessarily true.
Although, one has to wonder if it even matters whether it's perception or 'reality' that's being changed. Now there's a whole 'nother can of philosophical worms...
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Post by csj on Nov 29, 2012 7:16:02 GMT
Jones exists because xe was created by Tom's imagination. Therefore, she is a subtle self-insert.
All your theories are ruined.
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Nov 29, 2012 7:52:11 GMT
Right. One could argue the shock to astronomers didn't come when ridges and valleys suddenly appeared on the moon; it came when astronomers spontaneously realized the ridges and valleys that were already there look a lot like a fingerprint. No, that was a sudden change. It's the myth of a god that makes that god retroactively exist, but the acts of a god after the fact are not retroactive. Coyote could cut down a tree before your eyes. That doesn't mean you only suddenly realize the tree was down all along.
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Post by Nnelg on Nov 29, 2012 14:10:27 GMT
It's the myth of a god that makes that god retroactively exist, but the acts of a god after the fact are not retroactive. Oh, don't be so sure. If Coyote's right, the human mind certainly has the power to do so (see the thread title ). If one can be retroactive, why not the other?
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Post by 0o0f on Nov 29, 2012 14:17:55 GMT
Well, it's still a theory. While Jones doesn't disprove it, only time will tell if it will be proven. (I'm kinda with those that prefer it to stay ambiguous, though I wonder, would this mean Annie can imagine herself out of existence??)
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gary
Full Member
Posts: 121
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Post by gary on Nov 29, 2012 20:24:43 GMT
Well, it's still a theory. While Jones doesn't disprove it, only time will tell if it will be proven. (I'm kinda with those that prefer it to stay ambiguous, though I wonder, would this mean Annie can imagine herself out of existence??) I don't think there's any reason to think that once created from the ether mythical characters can be uncreated by lack of belief. Otherwise Coyote and Odin wouldn't have survived the thousands of christians, muslims and athiests who don't believe in them. The original souls that powered them will still exist after all.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 30, 2012 2:48:41 GMT
The original souls that powered them will still exist after all. I was under the impression that separate souls don't exist perpetually--they take different paths, but eventually wind up reabsorbed into the ether from which they came. The etheric energy that composed the souls does persist indefinitely, though. Basically, souls decompose and the components get recycled, much like our physical bodies do.
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Post by warrl on Nov 30, 2012 5:03:54 GMT
In fact, I'm just going to flat-out say it: There is no explanation for all of this.That has been proven incorrect. There are many explanations for all of this. Several, but not all of them, have been presented in this forum. If any of them are true, or any of them are false... that is not known.
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Post by Nnelg on Nov 30, 2012 5:58:22 GMT
I meant in-comic. Fine then, how about "There is no single 'correct' answer". But what will really send your head spinning is this... If Coyote's right, then this is just one more place where humans sought an explanation, but found none. Instead, we have made up explanations ourselves. If Coyote's right... Then so are all our forum theories.
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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 30, 2012 8:07:33 GMT
I think I like this new word.
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