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Post by atteSmythe on May 25, 2012 19:56:56 GMT
At a second look, it seems you're right about their positions. For some reason, panel 5 of 1018 gave me the impression that Donny was talking over his shoulder, and that's what I remembered.
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Post by Lightice on May 25, 2012 20:29:53 GMT
A really wild prediction concerning the following strip: Anthony actually has nothing to do with Annie's sickness, at least directly. Zimmy mentions him because she senses that he's just about to walk through the infirmary door to see his ill daughter.
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Post by GK Sierra on May 25, 2012 21:05:48 GMT
Anthony might be suffering from emotional detachment. It's entirely within the realm of possibility. He looks out for Annie's well being in general (providing her with food and shelter at the Court), but when it comes to expressing any sort of emotional warmth, he just doesn't seem to know how. Unlike some sociopaths who've managed to overcome their lack of empathy by being charming and manipulative, he seems to show little concern for her emotions, almost as if he assumes her physical well being should be his only priority regarding her. He possibly knows what he should be doing, if he's seen other father/daughter relationships, but my bet is that he deems finding a 'cure for her affliction' a more pressing matter that he should be seeking as a good father. Thus he's left her there, assuming she would be as strong and emotionless as he seems to be (as evidenced by the very first chapter, because whoa), but not realizing just what he's actually doing to his daughter who recently lost her mother, that she also feels like she's lost her father. Every move he makes seems cold and calculated. Rational and detached. He doesn't seem to be very concerned with the feelings of other people, almost as if he doesn't know what they really are. They're beyond him. A symptom of emotional detachment is choosing to ignore a person out of fear of repetition of a past trauma. Yeah, I think she, and her dad as well are textbook cases of emotional trauma. Its little wonder she comes across as an ice queen.
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Post by exuberancium on May 25, 2012 21:10:06 GMT
Alternate theory: Annie ate some sketchy beans and now an etheric bone beanstalk is growing out of her, which Jack will inevitably climb.
(This is not a serious theory)
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lukas
New Member
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Post by lukas on May 25, 2012 22:42:11 GMT
haha yeah, i don't think the empathy she has for her dad is what's keeping her unconscious , if you get what im saying.
(im saying it's the giant bone fingers from outer space)
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Post by TBeholder on May 25, 2012 23:04:31 GMT
But but but Anthony is a stand-up guy! His complete ineptitude at fatherhood and failure to better himself in that regard hasn't ever hurt his daughter at all! :rolleyes: People do monstrous things in real life, though. All the time. It's not bad writing or unrealistic to have someone act evil. Is that a definitive proof that "I don't approve something X did" equals "X eats babies on the breakfast"? Because otherwise it's beside the point to an astonishing degree. Diego is utterly monstrous in "Skywatcher and the Angel" but I don't think many people thought that was a sub-par chapter. Quite the reverse. Yup. Note the difference, though: that wasn't Disney-grade stupid "just because for the evulz". Personally, I think it's a mistake to view the fire spirit within her as something seperate to Annie that only comes to the surface when she's angry (though I realise that throught comes straight from Coyote). Exactly! And if it wasn't the case, they won't die of losing it, at most would become powerless. Right? I, on the other eyestalk, won't have to point out - in ten various synonyms for about five last pages or so - the outrageous mindlessness of ignoring this very fact... That feels like something that Tom would do at this point. I meant, more poignant than that... by now... what with not having patience for things that aren't worth it. Why must we jump to the EvilAnthony bandwagon? To this i, unfortunately, have an answer: look up "anti-kitten-burning coalition". Personally, I assume Kat, but not everyone. Zimmy only mentions Anthony after putting her hand on the bone - from that, I got the impression that she sensed him ...because she doesn't know about him, but knows him well enough to recognize?
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Post by kinsman on May 25, 2012 23:17:55 GMT
While we consider Anthony's evilness, with regard to the possibility that he is trying to remove the fire elemental, we should consider this; he doesn't think of the elemental as an integral part of Annie, he perceives it as an alien parasite. He's clearly not very 'etherically aware', I would think this is exactly how he might understand the elemental. He is a doctor, and the elemental is Annie's disease.
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Post by TBeholder on May 25, 2012 23:45:37 GMT
Yeah, but you know what might have clued him in? Being present! Exactly. Strange that a surgeon doesn't know this, hmm?.. that she associates her self-restraint (which I believe is dulling the flames) as being forced upon her by Anthony at the root, which due to him being distant she associates him with the furthest away he can be (SPACE.) In Annie's dream, the mask was given to her by Jones, while Anthony didn't appear at all. Which wouldn't happen if the problem was all in her mind and about him... Maybe her empathy with him brought back the binds of her fire spirit in full force, which knocked her out? ...and can be an accidental link only if he himself is out of Earth's atmosphere - as i mentioned, for a man of the Court it's definitely possible, but not probable. Zimmy mentions him because she senses that he's just about to walk through the infirmary door An interesting idea - but while she could detect him, how she would identify him? She saw and heard what Annie thought and Pigeon said. Mentioning "her dad?" means Zimmy continues to take information from Annie - and now it's at least not easier to understand than before. Yeah, I think she, and her dad as well are textbook cases of emotional trauma. I know that Tom can be wacky or cruel when he wants to, but doubt "suddenly, Freudism!" is a possibility now. Alternate theory: Annie ate some sketchy beans and now an etheric bone beanstalk is growing out of her, which Jack will inevitably climb. (This is not a serious theory) Hey, it's Gunnerkrigg. Tom can make this look like the most sensible thing in the multiverse in four pages, tops. While we consider Anthony's evilness, with regard to the possibility that he is trying to remove the fire elemental, we should consider this; he doesn't think of the elemental as an integral part of Annie Right, because he just walked into the door and didn't know Surma half of her life. Again, this assumes that Anthony is terminally oblivious toward the subject that interested him more than anything else for many years.
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Post by Marnath on May 25, 2012 23:45:53 GMT
I'll repost this that I put on another forum:
Well, if whatever is going on is some attempt to separate Annie from the elemental it's doomed to fail. She is the elemental. Antimony Carver is just her latest meat puppet.
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Post by Lightice on May 26, 2012 1:17:00 GMT
While we consider Anthony's evilness, with regard to the possibility that he is trying to remove the fire elemental, we should consider this; he doesn't think of the elemental as an integral part of Annie, he perceives it as an alien parasite. He's clearly not very 'etherically aware', I would think this is exactly how he might understand the elemental. He is a doctor, and the elemental is Annie's disease. After all the time he spent married to Surma? Of all the things we've learned him to be, a complete, blitering idiot is not one of them. He knows perfectly well what happens when the elemental is separated from its "host". He saw it happen over the course of twelve years. He's definately not going to repeat the process over again, unless his goal involves killing Antimony, which I really doubt. There's another possibility to consider, assuming that he is indeed actively behind this incident, and trying to manipulate Annie's spirit to some medical gain: he might be trying to anchor the elemental to Annie permanently. Surma died because the elemental force moved from her into Annie. But what if you could cage inside its "host" permanently? This is still just wild speculation, ofcourse. I'm still being somewhat sceptical about Anthony being the true origin of the illness, even though he's clearly somehow involved. If he was going to do a non-emergency procedure on his daughter, I feel that even he would have told her first, though probably in an extremely awkward and blunt manner. But we shall see just how well any of us understands him at this point.
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Kriselia
Junior Member
But she smells wonderful!
Posts: 87
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Post by Kriselia on May 26, 2012 5:05:31 GMT
There's another possibility to consider, assuming that he is indeed actively behind this incident, and trying to manipulate Annie's spirit to some medical gain: he might be trying to anchor the elemental to Annie permanently. Surma died because the elemental force moved from her into Annie. But what if you could cage inside its "host" permanently? Intriguing idea! I don't think I've seen your theory pop up before, but it's fast becoming my favourite. With all the time Tony devoted to treating Surma, he must understand how the spirit transfer works quite well. And since obviously earlier methods didn't work, this would be the logical new thing to try. There's only the downside that since Annie would have normal non-fire elemental kids, the fire spirit would eventually die for real. Damn, I think I like this even more than the blinker stone theory ;D
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Post by Raph on May 26, 2012 5:06:04 GMT
I think one of the things we're missing here is why do they look like bones, or even fingers, if that's the case. Some people have made the point they don't look like surgical tools at all, and I think that's a very valid point.
If anything, we should expect two sets of bones, I doubt any surgeon, as cocky as they might be, would never operate one-handed.
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Post by djublonskopf on May 26, 2012 16:34:20 GMT
Those appendages still don't quite look like bare bones, but more like bones covered in shrivelled, bleached skin, so I keep thinking about them as fingers until something new comes out of this. Plus, there's 5 of them. Another vote for "fingers".
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Post by negativeproximity on May 26, 2012 16:55:55 GMT
You know, it's also possible that Anthony isn't the one directly responsible for his daughters condition right now. But he could be aware of it and doing something to help, and Zimmy could have picked up on it.
It's possible. Just throwing it out there.
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cass
Junior Member
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Post by cass on May 26, 2012 18:32:13 GMT
Then again, remember what Donny said? "But the fact that he called you, and had the court track your location, no less, tells me that he wanted to hear your voice - even if only briefly." If Anthony wanted to kill his daughter, he wouldn't have done something like that. Unless he was trying to put people off the scent, which is really damn sneaky. Hmm, or he wanted to speak to her to make sure she was still there. Sort of like phoning someone to make sure they're in the room with your bomb.
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Post by djublonskopf on May 26, 2012 23:11:18 GMT
Hmm, or he wanted to speak to her to make sure she was still there. Sort of like phoning someone to make sure they're in the room with your bomb. Exactly right. It could have been as innocent as Donny said, of course, but there are nefarious reasons for "wanting to hear your daughter's voice".
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qiam
New Member
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Post by qiam on May 28, 2012 5:38:32 GMT
My theory: Annie is afraid of being pushed away or left by the people she cares about. Her father's influence is represented as cold, unfeeling bones piercing her in the heart. Antimony, deep down, is very insecure because she thinks her father hates her because of her mother's death and because Antimony is a fire elemental (or whatever).
Because Kat is one of the few people she can claim as family, Annie's insecurity causes her to lie to Kat because she fears that if Kat found out she was being dishonest, that could lead to them eventually not being friends and Annie is afraid of being pushed away by people she cares about.
So she relaxes her mask around Kat more so than other people, but she is still hiding things because of her insecurity.
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Post by bicarbonat on May 28, 2012 15:36:05 GMT
Wait... so, to avoid the eventual situation where it slowly leaks out, which would cause her death, he... started to... quickly leak it out and later simply prevents this from causing her death. That's the most obvious solution, by the Su-Field diagram of St. Altshuller! Don't mind the thudding sounds - it's merely a front plate of chitin-chitosan armor dissipating its kinetical energy into the wooden desk. No, I was thinking either a) dilution of a poison, and b) removing Annie (from the elemental's perspective) from symbiotic relationship. Of course, initially, it's going to be a kicking and screaming fight, like a possession; the fire elemental needs a host, and it probably wouldn't take kindly to being weakened. Because of the symbiotic relationship, weakening the symbiote would affect Annie adversely; but if Anthony found the critical tipping point at which the fire elemental was so weak that it could no longer affect Annie (neither to give her power nor to harm her), all that would be left is to draw the rest of it out. Not saying this will work - just saying that might be Anthony's working theory. No need to give yourself a hemorrhage just yet.
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Post by ischaldirh on May 28, 2012 16:38:57 GMT
The fire elemental doesn't have a symbiotic relationship with Annie. The fire elemental IS Annie. Whether or not that's what Anthony is trying to do I don't think it would have been successful in the way he wants it to be.
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Post by warrl on May 29, 2012 5:55:14 GMT
Nobody will enter the room. Pretty much guaranteed. Because this whole scene is taking no time at all. And I mean that literally, at least from the moment Zimmy entered the hospital room if not a moment or two before. Zimmy is not surprised that Reynardine, who freaks out every time she comes near him, is laying there unmoving. Or that Robot and Shadow2 are similarly immobilized. She's surprised that Kat is moving around and speaking. Somehow, Zimmy and/or Gamma are twisting time. They intended to arrive, do something useful, and leave without anyone realizing they had done more than stop for a brief visit. But Kat slipped into the time-twist with them. (How? She has a strong natural ability to manipulate etheric energy - see a certain antigravity device - but apparently has a very limited natural ability to detect it; it has to be concentrated and focused. The creation of the time-twist qualifies. And when she detected the time-twist being formed, without realizing what she was doing she etherically latched onto her friend whom she's currently extremely worried about.) Anyone wanting to enter the time twist uninvited would have had to do so at the moment it was being formed. Which means they would have had to be aware of it already. And probably physically there, as well. (Rey probably could have done it, but he was asleep at the critical moment.)
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Post by TBeholder on May 29, 2012 8:28:43 GMT
Zimmy is not surprised that Reynardine, who freaks out every time she comes near him, is laying there unmoving. Or that Robot and Shadow2 are similarly immobilized. She's surprised that Kat is moving around and speaking. Somehow, Zimmy and/or Gamma are twisting time. [...] But Kat slipped into the time-twist with them. [...] she etherically latched onto her friend whom she's currently extremely worried about. It's a good one. But: - Zimmy is rarely surprised by anything, especially enough to express it. For obvious reasons.
- Kat could stick around simply because Zimmy actively interacted (talked) with her. "Precise control" isn't one of Zimmy's virtues, not that this was her fault.
- Timestop was proposed back then. And it did already happen explicitly at least once (Coyote with Antimony) and maybe more (Guides with Antimony). But that time it looked differently.
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Post by Georgie L on May 29, 2012 9:08:39 GMT
The fire elemental doesn't have a symbiotic relationship with Annie. The fire elemental IS Annie. Whether or not that's what Anthony is trying to do I don't think it would have been successful in the way he wants it to be. I took it more as being similar to that thingy in our bodies that used to be a separate thing long ago, but a symbiotic relationship then evolved into being that it was no longer a foreign body but actually something required by the body to live. As for Kat having an etheric attunement. Evidence so far has shown she has little to no ability with the ether, whether active or passive, she produced the anti-grav machine entirely through technical knowledge alone (the only possible ability she may have is genius-level skill with technology and electronics)
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Post by TBeholder on May 29, 2012 9:17:35 GMT
The fire elemental doesn't have a symbiotic relationship with Annie. The fire elemental IS Annie. I took it more as being similar to that thingy in our bodies that used to be a separate thing long ago, but a symbiotic relationship then evolved into being that it was no longer a foreign body but actually something required by the body to live. Here's either to much or too few "thingy"-s for my taste. ;D But it's possible you're onto something, in that as extranuclear inheritance this, obviously, comes from the mother's side. Now, is this as easy to influence...
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notacat
Full Member
That's not me, that's my late cat Mimi: I'm not nearly so cute
Posts: 188
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Post by notacat on May 29, 2012 10:06:18 GMT
The fire elemental doesn't have a symbiotic relationship with Annie. The fire elemental IS Annie. Whether or not that's what Anthony is trying to do I don't think it would have been successful in the way he wants it to be. I took it more as being similar to that thingy in our bodies that used to be a separate thing long ago, but a symbiotic relationship then evolved into being that it was no longer a foreign body but actually something required by the body to live. Mitochondria are a good example of this, according to current thinking; also chloroplasts. There's even an extreme theory which speculates that cell nuclei originated in this fashion.
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Post by Georgie L on May 30, 2012 0:51:00 GMT
I'll be honest, I forgot what the word was so put thingy as a placeholder. I think the word I was looking for was mitochondria though yes.
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Post by bicarbonat on May 30, 2012 15:53:55 GMT
The fire elemental doesn't have a symbiotic relationship with Annie. The fire elemental IS Annie. Whether or not that's what Anthony is trying to do I don't think it would have been successful in the way he wants it to be. Symbiotic in that the fire elemental isn't native to Annie - there was a time when it wasn't bonded to her. Symbiotic relationships can be commensal, where one party benefits and the other gets diddly - though from what we've seen, it looks ultimately commensal-parasitic. The fire elemental also affects Annie's temperament/reactions to the outside world; it's true, we have no way of knowing how she'd act if she didn't have a fire elemental spirit...but part of the spoilers Tom sprinkled throughout the story (Annie being told she had the same fire as her mother, raging out after her argument with Renard and threatening Eglamore with psychic fire) indicate that Annie's temper is not all her own, but is influenced by something originally external to her. However great Annie finds her abilities, they're eventually going to kill her if she has a child...and then that elemental will leave her body and begin its symbiotic relationship with her kid.
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Post by warrl on May 31, 2012 4:42:42 GMT
Symbiotic in that the fire elemental isn't native to Annie - there was a time when it wasn't bonded to her. However, on available evidence that time ended before her mother was born. The fire elemental isn't "native to" Annie - the fire elemental IS Annie.
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Post by Lightice on May 31, 2012 11:14:16 GMT
However, on available evidence that time ended before her mother was born. The fire elemental isn't "native to" Annie - the fire elemental IS Annie. That's not really supported by what we know about the fire elementals. Under that logic, Surma would have been the fire elemental, as well. When Annie was born, she would have had to die immediately, or else split her consciousness into two. Instead, the two were distinct individuals with their own personalities, not one person split in half. By all indication, the fire elemental represents the life-force that a descendent of the union between man and fire needs to survive, but it's energy, not mind, for them. In normal anatomy, I would compare it to a heart -- a highly important organ for survival, but not the seat of thoughts and feelings, and possibly replaceable. There was still enough Surma to pass beyond into the spirit-world, or whatever, even though she no longer had the fire that the psychopomps needed to find her. Annie and Surma are not the same person, and by extension the elemental is not either of them, although they both share its inner fire.
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Post by mcbibble on May 31, 2012 13:04:00 GMT
What passed of surma was not enough to interest any psychopomp. It may have been more a memory of surma, akin to the nobodies dandering around birminghell. I would say, that I think given what we know it is reasonable to presume that Annie's soul is the elemental, rather than her body. That's the dissonance between physical and ethereal, court and forest. Our minds exist in the ether and are tethered to, and shaped by, our bodies. It's something gunnerheads like kat or Anthony couldn't understand- you may be able to separate the elemental from the body of Annie, but what was left would be a nobody.
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Post by Lightice on May 31, 2012 13:24:20 GMT
What passed of surma was not enough to interest any psychopomp. It may have been more a memory of surma, akin to the nobodies dandering around birminghell. I would say, that I think given what we know it is reasonable to presume that Annie's soul is the elemental, rather than her body. There can be more elements to a person than a soul and a body. In fact, many ancient cultures specifically believed that a person has more than one soul, and they fulfill different spiritual and psychological functions in people. The idea that the fire elemental would be Annie's and Surma's shared soul doesn't seem to work simply because we haven't been given any hint of such drain going on between them. Surma never became more aloof, emotionless or mindless as the transfer went on. Only her body became weaker and weaker, as the elemental was passed from her to Annie. Annie in turn wasn't born mentally or emotionally deficient; in fact she seemed like a pretty cheerful child from early on, until the inevitability of her mother's death struck her. The loss and gain of strength was conveyed in physical and etheral strength, but not in thought or emotion, which usually are attributed to a soul. The only thing that makes sense to me here is that the fire elemental is a some sort of metaphysical power generator which empowers the spirit and body of a person with fire ancestry. Normal life-forms have one inseparably connected to their soul/spirit/whatever, for for fire elemental descendents it's a separate part, most likely a side-effect of interbreeding between two species that don't even consist of the same type of matter. That part can't be added to or removed from, so it must be transferred onward when the person in question has a child. It's not reincarnation, but passing of the life force.
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