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Post by King Mir on Jun 21, 2010 18:36:39 GMT
So now it's safe to assume this is from zimmy's point of view? (or this is a big mindscrew moment) Why would Zimmy want to help jack so much?
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Post by legion on Jun 21, 2010 18:40:44 GMT
So now it's safe to assume this is from zimmy's point of view? No, it's not >:V
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Post by TBeholder on Jun 21, 2010 18:50:32 GMT
I wonder if the teachers turned on the rain or something. Of course they did. Edit: Spider #6 is Elgamore. #6 counting from the left or from the right? I have to admit though, since we never when and where the initial switch happened, I had the horrible thought: what if Annie is just now "turning into" Zimmy? It looks like she's Annie, but overridden by a memory of Zimmy. Or something like this. I'd say that if Annie got Zimmy's attitude while retaining her own abilities (and control over them)... and was upset that much... Jack is one very lucky boy with this rain, that's all. and the rain is definitely acting backwards from "Power Station": previously, the "power station rain" came before Zimmy entered Zimmingham, now the rain seems to be bringing reality back into the illusion. (that purple stuff looks like the sky leaking into the spider building). Maybe they didn't ran the full cycle. Or even dropped back what they collected. Just for an experiment, you know. If the de-etherized rain from the power station is dissolving the illusion, rather than creating it, does that mean it's the opposite of Zimmy's regular illusions? Maybe he didn't go as far as Zimmy and don't need an equal concentration to be affected?
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Post by mojojojo on Jun 21, 2010 18:57:20 GMT
So now it's safe to assume this is from zimmy's point of view? (or this is a big mindscrew moment) I don't think POV really comes into it. Zimmy's "point of view" is what defines reality in Zimmingham. As for Zimmy wanting to help Jack... I don't really know. Either it's something Zimmy thinks Annie would do, or Zimmy doesn't want to help Jack, but she really, really doesn't want the spider to succeed in whatever it's doing. I think the former is more likely.
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Post by Casey on Jun 21, 2010 19:11:35 GMT
The rain "cools" Zimmy's ability, which is to manifest things from her haunted memories into reality, if I understand correctly. The artificial rain didn't work because it didn't contain the etheric energy necessary to counteract Zimmy's ability.
However, if this is not Zimmingham, but is rather an illusion being created by the spider (and it's becoming clearer that this is so) then the non-etheric rain could erase the illusion, as the etheric energy that the illusion is made of gets absorbed by the etherically-starved rain. Thus, the same no-ether rain could worsen Zimmy's illusions, but destroy these illusions.
Or, it's also possible that Jones instructed them to go through the evaporation routine, but not the extraction routine. However, she did say to let it go into collection mode. It's possible that she suspected that the illusions Jack/Jack's spider was creating, or that etheric activities in general, would be neutralized by the ether-starved rain.
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Post by joephlommin on Jun 21, 2010 19:33:12 GMT
Ok I havent read entire thread but its actually rather simple. Jack dosent want it to rain because Zimmy's illusion to go away because he needs memory jack for something. Annie is (at least part) Zimmy and Zimmy is Annie and Gamma is confused.
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Post by sebastian on Jun 21, 2010 19:55:40 GMT
On an unrelated note, I recall how Reynardine was not willing to touch anything Zimmy created, and even revealed his disguise in order not to be touched by her. We still don't know why, do we? And make me wonder if it is related to why Jones didn't want Annie to bring Rey with her.
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jun 21, 2010 20:06:03 GMT
On an unrelated note, I recall how Reynardine was not willing to touch anything Zimmy created, and even revealed his disguise in order not to be touched by her. We still don't know why, do we? And make me wonder if it is related to why Jones didn't want Annie to bring Rey with her. Rey's presence in Zimmingham would also tip off Jack to the fact that Rey isn't still pinned to the wall back at the power station and keeping the Court forces preoccupied. Jones might be wanting Jack to operate on the assumption that he has effectively won, while the reality of the situation (if you'll pardon the pun) is that Jones can order the power station turned off (or switched to "make it rain" mode) at any time.
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lovecraft1024
Full Member
What does anything mean? Basically
Posts: 118
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Jun 21, 2010 20:08:49 GMT
One thing about bringing Rey along is that Jack would clearly know something was afoot. "Hey, how did you escape from my trap? Hmmm, someone must be on to me..." So it might have been that Jones didn't want to raise his suspicions.
This does have the consequence of making it impossible to tell who is really who in the trio of girls. If Annie had Rey with her, then you'd expect to see him close to whichever one was Annie.
By the way, "Annie" says "She's *my* friend!" FOUR times! Talk about over the edge...
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Post by dawngazer on Jun 21, 2010 20:17:16 GMT
There's so many possibilities I don't know what to make of them all. So I'll just foam at the mouth.
buzzzzzzzzzzZZzZZZZZ *Foams*
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jun 21, 2010 20:31:42 GMT
or maybe things aren't going according to plan. Jack may have invited Annie and Rey to the power plant so he could trap them there. Except he seemed pretty surprised when Annie wanted to stay with Rey, rather than leave with him. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=715 and 716. Point well taken. Still, it's obvious that at the very least, he wanted Rey to be nailed. And it's possible that Annie isn't necessarily integral to Jack's plan. Jack, in his delusional thinking, might have figured trapping Rey would make Annie like him and the two of them would join forces and rule the galaxy together or something. As we all know, that's so not going to happen, but Jack didn't seem particularly disappointed when she didn't come with him, either. That part of the plan flies out the window (a different window than the one Jack flew out of), but for all practical intents and purposes, he thinks he got what he was after (power plant turned on *check* Rey nailed to a wall *check* Annie didn't turn to the dark side, but she's effectively trapped? *it will do* ) anyone capable of flying out a window probably could have kidnapped (hi-Jacked?) Annie if she were important to the master plan.
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Post by the bandit on Jun 21, 2010 21:00:46 GMT
Hmm, this doesn't seem like part of the plan.
Also, Panel 3 must've been a heckuvalotta fun and challenging to draw.
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Post by Rex on Jun 21, 2010 21:18:26 GMT
That would explain why it's too soon for spider jack, but Jones would need a reason to change her plan to let the station do its thing. She or Rey would have to conclude that something is wrong and stopping the station would change that. Also, Jones said the station uses evaporation, not condensation to collect energy, so evaporated water should already be either-free. She wouldn't need a reason beyond giving Annie a certain time limit to do what she was going to do before intervening, regardless of the events in that world (which I doubt Jones or Renard are aware of). Her plan looks like it simply consisted of letting whatever Jack did to the station continue because it was "interesting". And it's not far fetched at all to think that those who know the mechanics behind the power station can create etherically charged rain. I'm taking my cues from the previous depiction of the etheric energy gathered by the station (a purple bolt), and the purple coming with the rain seems to denote it is etherically charged.
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Post by todd on Jun 21, 2010 22:17:43 GMT
Of course, if this illusion is operating on reverse rules from Zimmy's regular illusions (which would fit in with its - apparently - being dispelled by the rain), maybe that's why Gamma's presence and thought-poring seemed to be making Annie (or Zimmy, if the "Annie is really Zimmy" theory turns out to be correct) worse rather than better; the illusion could have produced the opposite of the usual results.
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Post by Quizzie on Jun 21, 2010 22:36:15 GMT
Or maybe the rain, which is supposed to make things "better" is doing so by turning Annie back into Zimmy and Zimmy back into Annie.
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Post by Rex on Jun 22, 2010 1:20:59 GMT
Of course, if this illusion is operating on reverse rules from Zimmy's regular illusions (which would fit in with its - apparently - being dispelled by the rain), maybe that's why Gamma's presence and thought-poring seemed to be making Annie (or Zimmy, if the "Annie is really Zimmy" theory turns out to be correct) worse rather than better; the illusion could have produced the opposite of the usual results. Awesome idea, todd. The spider creates something of reversed version of Zimmingham where things are flipped on their head (including the effects of things we know about from before).
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Post by Casey on Jun 22, 2010 3:58:13 GMT
Of course, if this illusion is operating on reverse rules from Zimmy's regular illusions (which would fit in with its - apparently - being dispelled by the rain), maybe that's why Gamma's presence and thought-poring seemed to be making Annie (or Zimmy, if the "Annie is really Zimmy" theory turns out to be correct) worse rather than better; the illusion could have produced the opposite of the usual results. Awesome idea, todd. The spider creates something of reversed version of Zimmingham where things are flipped on their head (including the effects of things we know about from before). Sounds familiar.
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Post by mojojojo on Jun 22, 2010 8:59:58 GMT
However, if this is not Zimmingham, but is rather an illusion being created by the spider (and it's becoming clearer that this is so) then the non-etheric rain could erase the illusion, as the etheric energy that the illusion is made of gets absorbed by the etherically-starved rain. Thus, the same no-ether rain could worsen Zimmy's illusions, but destroy these illusions. I don't really see how it's clearer that this is a spider generated illusion - why did Jack go to all the trouble of setting off the power plant if not to draw Zimmy in and make Zimmingham appear? Also, it seems remarkably similar to Zimmingham for an opposite. I don't think we can say much about the rain yet - it could not even exist in the real world. The Power Station rain disappeared when everything went to Zimmingham before. (I doubt this - but only because the rain seems to bring purple with it which could be the sky... but then everything is purple in Gunnerkrigg. Also, the rain coming down and washing the illusion of Zimmingham away would probably look pretty cool) It could be natural rain. Personally, I favour the "Jones changed the power station cycle so it works like rain normally does for Zimmy" theory. But I don't really expect that to be right.
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Post by King Mir on Jun 22, 2010 11:43:41 GMT
That would explain why it's too soon for spider jack, but Jones would need a reason to change her plan to let the station do its thing. She or Rey would have to conclude that something is wrong and stopping the station would change that. Also, Jones said the station uses evaporation, not condensation to collect energy, so evaporated water should already be either-free. She wouldn't need a reason beyond giving Annie a certain time limit to do what she was going to do before intervening, regardless of the events in that world (which I doubt Jones or Renard are aware of). Her plan looks like it simply consisted of letting whatever Jack did to the station continue because it was "interesting". If Annie and the others were standing there for, say half an hour it might make sense for Jones to pull the plug. But It does not take a half an hour for the Station to do it's thing. Jones would want to let it do it's thing, because it's "interesting" to see what will happens. Stopping it midway would not be so interesting. The rain isn't purple, the sky is. But the sky was purple before. It's possible that the rain is etheirically charged, but I think a simpler explanation is more likely. Not sure what that explanation is though.
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Post by foresterr on Jun 22, 2010 12:41:58 GMT
Funny how some posters (yours truly included) find ever more and more support for their favourite theory as the events progress, despite the fact that the theories are often completely contradictory.
Almost makes me wish for an inconclusive explanation. Almost. It would make for a discussion till the end of time ^^
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Post by Rex on Jun 22, 2010 15:41:36 GMT
If Annie and the others were standing there for, say half an hour it might make sense for Jones to pull the plug. But It does not take a half an hour for the Station to do it's thing. Jones would want to let it do it's thing, because it's "interesting" to see what will happens. Stopping it midway would not be so interesting. Gah, a realization just struck me: I made the assumption that Jones ordered it to stop when the simplest answer is that the power station has completed its cycle. That would be the natural time limit on this little adventure. The plant is basically Spider-Jack's way of recreating the conditions that allowed entry into Zimmingham in the first place. Now that it has completed its cycle, they return to the real world (the rain, the real sky seeping in). Taking its comment at face value, it seems like the spider knew about this. True. I just had a look at the whole rooftop bit in chapter 19 again and the sky is the color we see there. Now onto the rain. Casey might be on to something here, since the rain (which going by prior information is devoid of any etheric energy) is acting like cold water falling onto a hot radiator. It looks like it works in the same manner Jones described Gamma functioning for Zimmy, a means of etheric dissipation.
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Post by Casey on Jun 22, 2010 15:59:17 GMT
For that matter, maybe one of the purposes of the Ether Station is to learn how to combat and neutralize etheric forces, like say, from an attack from the Forest. Clouds of ether-sponging rain could have a lot of purposes...
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Post by Rex on Jun 22, 2010 16:03:21 GMT
That is an unbelievably sinister, but effective weapon right there. What harm could a little rain do? Heh.
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Post by Quizzie on Jun 22, 2010 18:01:21 GMT
Ok, I have an idea...! Jack didn't "turn on" the power station. He just started the final stage of the procedure:
The station runs all the time, draining ether energies from the lake water. When the water is empty of ether, it releases it through rain.
Jack started the rain step unplanned and earlier than the water was ready, therefore it still has the etheric effects on everyone.
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Post by hal9000 on Jun 22, 2010 19:02:15 GMT
That is an unbelievably sinister, but effective weapon right there. What harm could a little rain do? Heh. On the scale of evilness from 1 to 10 (ascending severity), for which 10 would be something like the SLAM/'Project Pluto' and 1 would be an open hand, the power plant would rate at most a 5. It probably won't even kill anyone, though it might have interesting consequences for beings relying on the ether like Coyote.
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Post by King Mir on Jun 22, 2010 19:06:49 GMT
If Annie and the others were standing there for, say half an hour it might make sense for Jones to pull the plug. But It does not take a half an hour for the Station to do it's thing. Jones would want to let it do it's thing, because it's "interesting" to see what will happens. Stopping it midway would not be so interesting. Gah, a realization just struck me: I made the assumption that Jones ordered it to stop when the simplest answer is that the power station has completed its cycle. That would be the natural time limit on this little adventure. The plant is basically Spider-Jack's way of recreating the conditions that allowed entry into Zimmingham in the first place. Now that it has completed its cycle, they return to the real world (the rain, the real sky seeping in). Taking its comment at face value, it seems like the spider knew about this. True. I just had a look at the whole rooftop bit in chapter 19 again and the sky is the color we see there. Now onto the rain. Casey might be on to something here, since the rain (which going by prior information is devoid of any etheric energy) is acting like cold water falling onto a hot radiator. It looks like it works in the same manner Jones described Gamma functioning for Zimmy, a means of etheric dissipation. If the plant is not shut down mid cycle, like your original premise, then the rain should be devoid of etheric energy. And the rain starting should be a catalyst to entering Birmingham, not a stopper. Last time, Zimmy only went nuts after the rain started. Basically, your "realization" just though out your original argument, which I objected to.
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Post by violet on Jun 22, 2010 20:41:48 GMT
And if so, it would seem that Zimmy somehow has the ability to put on the facade of another person. Ability? You think she wants to be like this? I don't think the person we see as Zimmy is actually Annie; I think that's Zimmy, too. In any case, speed is likely irrelevant. They're all up on the roof, remember? Down came the rain and washed the spider out... Cute! The rain came because Zimmy's started to cry. Her tears are washing the illusion away. Oh, also good. Maybe unlikely, but definitely cool. Thus, the same no-ether rain could worsen Zimmy's illusions, but destroy these illusions. Seems a bit complex, y'know? Like warp ducting or the various colors of kryptonite. (Also, it seems like someone—Gamma or Zimmy especially—would have been able to suss out that something wasn't right about Zimmingham. By which I mean: it seems like there would be more explicit hints in that regard.) Seems more likely that Jones tweaked the program a bit. Alternately, it could have just started raining for the usual reasons it starts raining.
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Post by Rex on Jun 22, 2010 23:05:13 GMT
If the plant is not shut down mid cycle, like your original premise, then the rain should be devoid of etheric energy. And the rain starting should be a catalyst to entering Birmingham, not a stopper. Last time, Zimmy only went nuts after the rain started. Basically, your "realization" just though out your original argument, which I objected to. Ehh, not really. I just needed to simplify things. - Simply put Jack seeks out Zimmy and turns the station on to recreate the conditions that put him in Zimmingham originally. We have the means he used to return. - Jack mentions that the memory he found is the last one they need, so we have his reason for wanting to go back. - And this last bit, taken without assumptions as to outside interference, is simply the last part of the power station show. I'm more interested in Casey's idea that the empty rain will simply siphon off the etheric energy being used to generate this scenario, effectively washing it away. Which is amusing since it's "real" rain that washes away Zimmy's excess energy. This is nothing more than a continuation of the idea put forth by Jones when she explained Zimmy to Annie.
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canus
New Member
Posts: 21
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Post by canus on Jun 23, 2010 2:26:50 GMT
Anyone else think that in panel 5, Spider-Jack seems like he's noticing the spider on his head? In 6, he looks like he's reaching up for it? Maybe the rain disrupted its control over him.
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Post by Rex on Jun 23, 2010 4:00:21 GMT
Yeah, it's definitely odd that before those two panels he never acted as if he knew it was there. That along with the text bubbles seemingly coming from the spider, and the Annie turning into Zimmy freak out makes for one crazy page.
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