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Post by Refugee on Apr 9, 2010 20:26:15 GMT
If anything, I think this, and the spider, reflects how much Zimmy's attitudes have affected Jack. Zimmy, too, is nearly sociopathic, except for Gamma, and she too is accustomed to having entities that aren't quite human gopped out of her way.
The analogy is not exact, and I don't think Jack is nearly as far gone as Zimmy is. If he is freed of her influence, he's going to feel horrible about some of the things he's done.
But if Zimmy herself is not cured, she will spread this like a plague. Jack is only the first.
And very possibly, he's got it because of the Power Station's influence.
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Alex
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Post by Alex on Apr 9, 2010 20:41:50 GMT
How could anyone seriously think that a blow strong enough to crush a metal box isn't going to also be strong enough to break a little silicon chip? Seriously, think about it for a minute. There are large mechanical stresses applied to the box itself. Because of the normal construction of a computer (you have various plates attached at their endpoints to inside of a box, and then a small - about 1 inch square - flat object is attached to one of the plates) smashing the box is likely to result in some of the larger objects breaking, and the smaller objects just detaching.
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Alex
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Post by Alex on Apr 9, 2010 20:46:38 GMT
Also, I think this page was a little heavy-handed - clearly Tom is trying to portray the robot killing as a Bad Thing and that Jack has become a Bad Person, but the attempt at manipulating our emotions is a little too blatant. Thus I particularly object when it DOESN'T actually seem like he did a Bad Thing.
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Post by nikita on Apr 9, 2010 21:22:39 GMT
Alex I think it's partly because we see the world through Annie's eyes and it's her emotions that are important. Did the CPU survive? Probably. A cpu is compact, small and made of material that doesn't easily break. You'd have to hit it directly with a pointed object. Does this matter? Not at all - Jack would have smashed him either way. He sees them as mere machines. I've been thinking about how Jack helps the laser cow but smashes this robot's face without hesitation. It seems odd at first, but when I think about it: you can very well be an animal lover and a cold blooded murderer. Or murder one person but not another. I don't think Jack is outright evil. It highly depends on whether you think of the robots as machines or living beings. PS: Oh, by the way - this page is awesome!
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Post by hal9000 on Apr 9, 2010 21:27:00 GMT
Um, hal, not to fan the flames, but when did Casey make up a name for people he doesn't like in that quote? And I think we can assume Jack knows that the robots aren't mere automatons based on his actions during the residential, when he treats the laser cows affectionately and calls one "girl," as has already been pointed out. On the page, though, I think we can safely say Jack is no longer in control of himself. Given the competency of other court robots with similar posts, the whole smashing thing really wasn't necessary. I mostly object to the term 'Jack-lovers', as this implies something which is both untrue and also mildly insulting. Name calling such as that has no place in civil discourse. Also, he did treat the laser cow with a certain amount of respect more than what you might show for a toaster, but that could be explained as habit, or just the human condition. I think Jack was anthropomorphizing the laser cows there, to some small degree. I think most people do this. For example: I may treat my motorcycle with tender loving care, almost as if it is a part of the family. I might even describe it using human personality traits or emotions, eg. "the bike seemed much happier after I washed it and changed the oil". When push comes to shove, though, I know it is just a collection of machinery arranged in a complex system, and ascribing human motivations to it is foolish. Furthermore, if I had to chose between me or the bike in a life or death situation, I would certainly choose me.
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 9, 2010 21:38:24 GMT
because if it were a human guard, you would be ethically compelled to raise the alarm (as soon as you could without getting killed yourself) It's alarming. for one thing, I don't think that Jack's treatment of Annie so far is a promising beginning to a romantic relationship). Come on, standards have slipped a bit, but still. It's just that Kat was interested. Sort of. And may be in the future, if Jack will get fixed. and is planning on using one or both of them as the fall guy. "It wasn't me sir! It was the evil fox spirit who's killed so many here at the court in the past!" That is, one. Nah, IMHO it's not his pattern... I've been thinking about how Jack helps the laser cow but smashes this robot's face without hesitation. It seems odd at first, but when I think about it: ...earlier he managed to act nice and calm, then slipped into "JackAss" mode at a slightest provocation. Probably it's much the same, but without the other party departing in disgust or chasing him away, this time we'll see the whole mess to the end. Of course if Annie just said from the first moment that the power station have nothing to do with Jack's condition Who knows. Maybe, Zimmy just was out of safe time, but maybe the discharge caused the fit earlier or made it worse, so that Annie (Kat?) and Jack were trapped. Um, hal, not to fan the flames, but when did Casey make up a name for people he doesn't like in that quote? "Commie mutant traitor supporters" "Jack-lovers".
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Post by Jiminiminy on Apr 9, 2010 22:15:10 GMT
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Post by todd on Apr 9, 2010 22:55:00 GMT
Come on, standards have slipped a bit, but still. It's just that Kat was interested. Sort of. And may be in the future, if Jack will get fixed. What does Kat's interest have to do with the theories of Annie and Jack as an item? It might support the notion that began in Chapter Nineteen of Kat and Jack someday being a couple, but not a relationship between Annie and Jack.
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Post by Ulysses on Apr 9, 2010 23:02:59 GMT
I've just noticed that the robot with a square head is wearing a round hat. This amuses me.
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Post by legion on Apr 9, 2010 23:14:03 GMT
Um, hal, not to fan the flames, but when did Casey make up a name for people he doesn't like in that quote? Casey does (or at least gives to some people the impression to) have a (probably completly unintentional) slight tendency to speak a bit condescendly of people whose interpretations of various elements in GC differ markedly from his own and/or who are a little bit over enthusiastic in their wild mass guessings and conclusions. For instance, since the beginning of this chapter, he several times gave hints of contemptuous derision when people attributed various skills and/or positive features to Jack (parkour skills, ingeenering skills, and now trying to give him mitigating circumstances). This is again, probably just an impression, and should not be minded too much.
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cognizanita
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Post by cognizanita on Apr 10, 2010 1:29:57 GMT
I've pretty much always liked Jack.... (Alright I'll tell you how much I have always liked Jack: My personal opinion is that the confrontation in the hallway wasn't that menacing---I even thought Rey was in the wrong for being so terrifying in response. I haven't found Jack's "ice queen" comments all that insulting either. He always seemed like a troubled guy with an unhealthy taste for adventure and a bit of blindside when in comes to dealing with people. Interestingly, I think Annie has the same traits, but the difference is she is much more wise and much less self-centered.)
But going back to my point: This is the first time I have really had any serious qualms about Jack. And let me assure you, I am very disturbed.
That was completely malicious. It is not "just a robot" as someone such as Jack should (did?) know. And even if for some reason he thinks these robots are different, it was definite overkill. (literally)
The pernicious look in his eyes, his disdain afterwards.... it is all so excessive and so sudden. And so unlike the Jack I thought I knew. Three other options immediately come to mind: Sneaking past after distracting the robot, Annie's wily diplomatic tactics, or deactivating it with Jack's technology skills. Even if none of these were possible, if he had aimed a tiny bit lower and instead only severed the wires at the neck, no damage could have been done to the personality chip. (admittedly there could be a battery pack so the head would keep functioning after being separated from the body, but right now it certainly seems like Jack had no good reason for bashing the guard bot like that.)
In any case, I was shocked. And it looks like Annie is too. I almost wish she stops him right then and there and tells him that behavior is not okay. On the other hand, maybe she should just get out of there before he loses it completely.
I mean, even his reply is out of character for me. "It's just a dumb robot." Even if it were a barrier of bricks he kicked over, why is he so vehement? If it were truly just an obstacle in his opinion why doesn't he say something like, "It would have set off the alarm." or "I had to deactivate it somehow."
Whelp, sorry for the rant, but this is the first time I have felt so strongly. I'm fearful for Annie's safety.
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Chrome
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Post by Chrome on Apr 10, 2010 1:52:29 GMT
Let's not forget that Reynardine can do more than just look terrifying, and hope that he actually becomes the voice of reason here. Annie's now quite emotional about the robot, and Jack's gone quite callous all of a sudden.
I think the reason Jack was kindly to the robot cows in the past was because he was still himself. He wasn't as obsessed with the power station or as "possessed" with this spider-thing. He still had more of his normal upbeat nature, before this thing wore him down further and further.
Tom is indeed trying to show the change, the contrast. The old Jack probably would've just found a way around the guard-bot. The new, more messed-up Jack is so screwed-with that right now, he can only think of his objective, and will go to any length to get at it. However, I do think the whole "Horrible Monster He's Become" thing (TVTropes would provide the proper name I imagine) is a bit over-the-top. But the challenge is this: How else do you show that he's changed, that he's definitely getting worse?
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Pig_catapult
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Post by Pig_catapult on Apr 10, 2010 2:10:21 GMT
Agreeing with the camp that doesn't get how smashing a robot's head with a bat(?) could kill it dead. Sure, it's been disabled, and will need some repairs later, but. . . calling it murder is going a bit far.
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Alex
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Post by Alex on Apr 10, 2010 3:15:23 GMT
Also, re: romantic subplot I'm pretty sure all the romantic subtext is just a kind of dark satire, because of the complete lack of chemistry.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2010 4:50:52 GMT
I don't see how this is any different than Annie cheerfully walking around gopping all of the nobodies simply because they were in her way.
Did she KNOW they would do anything? No, she really didn't. All she had to go on was Zimmy's fear.
However, it's a pretty reasonable conclusion to make that a Cop Robot in a facility that's off-limits will probably do something that's not in your best interests as an intruder if you don't do something about it.
There are only two options for dealing with a security guard: Sneak past it, or bust its head open. With three people, sneaking really wasn't an option.
Therefore, you smash the bloody thing. Really don't see why some many people seem to have a problem with Jack having done that. Oh, he made big scary faces, I forgot.
Well, like somebody said, this is (indirectly) her fault for having really been kind of dumb in her handling of Jack to-date. Congratulations, Annie, you "killed" Copbot.
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Mesías
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Shine on You crazy Diamond!
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Post by Mesías on Apr 10, 2010 5:15:14 GMT
Stone cold Jack.
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Post by centzontotochtin on Apr 10, 2010 5:58:09 GMT
Well, Jack's lack of hesitation in smashing something human-shaped, and his comment that "It's just a dumb robot" brings to mind a very troubling question about his morality...
Specifically, would he have been so quick to destroy it if it were an awesome robot?
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Post by Ulysses on Apr 10, 2010 9:38:39 GMT
Notice that when Annie said "He's dead!", Jack doesn't say "It was never actually 'alive' you know", or even "the CPU chip's probably still OK". He just says "So what?". He's quite happy being labelled a murderer in this context. He realises that he has caused a cessation of life and isn't remorseful at all. If Annie finds an intact CPU chip and Jack stamps on it just to make sure, that will be the next level.
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Post by La Goon on Apr 10, 2010 11:07:17 GMT
He does however refer to the robot as "it" rather than "he". My guess is, he regards the robots as being on level with trained animals - which still makes his attitude pretty damn cold hearted
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Post by todd on Apr 10, 2010 11:17:52 GMT
I don't see how this is any different than Annie cheerfully walking around gopping all of the nobodies simply because they were in her way. The difference is that the Nobodys weren't portrayed as lovable comic-relief buffoons.
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Post by shouqi on Apr 10, 2010 14:04:34 GMT
He does however refer to the robot as "it" rather than "he". My guess is, he regards the robots as being on level with trained animals - which still makes his attitude pretty damn cold hearted That's a fair point and a good sign of his empathic regression - he referred to the laser cows as "girls" and "ladies".
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CameoAppearance
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Post by CameoAppearance on Apr 10, 2010 16:20:54 GMT
I wouldn't find his behaviour as disturbing if Jack had never interacted with the robots before. I couldn't really fault someone who doesn't know the Court robots very well for assuming that the guardbot was a serious threat (although jumping immediately to 'smash' without even considering the possibility of evading him somehow would still be a mite trigger-happy), or for that matter that he was nonsentient... although the latter would be kind of a hasty assumption, given that he was talking to himself like a person when Jack smashed him.
However, between the fact that Jack seemed to be familiar with the robots before (although, granted, we don't know how much he knew about them) and the callous brush-off he gave Annie, it's very hard to believe that he overestimated the threat out of ignorance. If nothing else, if that was his reason he would probably have responded with "do you want it to catch us?" or something like that, rather than "so what, it's just a robot".
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Post by sebastian on Apr 10, 2010 21:21:20 GMT
Even if none of these were possible, if he had aimed a tiny bit lower and instead only severed the wires at the neck, no damage could have been done to the personality chip. (admittedly there could be a battery pack so the head would keep functioning after being separated from the body, but right now it certainly seems like Jack had no good reason for bashing the guard bot like that.) This is true only if the personality chip is actually in the head rather than i.e. in the torso. I dunno, maybe it is wishful thinking but I have a feeling that Tom is pulling our leg here, kinda like in the end of Red Return. Tom is trying to make us believe something is going/will be going in a certain way when actually it will go the opposite way of it. It would not be the first time that Tom do something like that, oine comic things look in a certain way, the next something happen to show that the opposite is true. Oh, well, only time will tell.
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Post by yazzydream on Apr 10, 2010 22:24:29 GMT
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Post by Per on Apr 10, 2010 22:50:49 GMT
Aha, but was it destroyed beyond any reasonable repair/resurrection? *fivepageargument*
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Post by yazzydream on Apr 10, 2010 22:56:39 GMT
Pft. Haha. I think when we say destroyed, we can safely assume is means beyond reasonable repair.
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Post by sebastian on Apr 10, 2010 23:02:35 GMT
Bah, authors, what does they know!?
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 11, 2010 1:00:49 GMT
Yeah, no easy fix-it-and-forget for Jack. If he will get better at all, that is.
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Pig_catapult
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Post by Pig_catapult on Apr 11, 2010 1:30:34 GMT
Question: What engineer's bright idea was it to put the CPU in the head?
Supposition: If we assume that Jack is a technopath, as evidenced by the fact that he hacked the Court motion sensors without equipment, and seemed to have a much deeper connection with the Laser Cows than could be accounted for by simple geekery, why couldn't he just disable Guardbot with his mind? Perhaps the Face-Spider's aura has overwhelmed his own at this point, so he's lost his innate etheric abilities. How much of his actions are his own at this point is. . . questionable.
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Alex
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Post by Alex on Apr 11, 2010 3:34:36 GMT
Honestly, it doesn't matter. Jack couldn't have reasonably expected what he did to actually break the CPU, for reasons we've gone over here. Look, I see what Tom was trying to do here. The problem is that 1) the scene is a bit too obviously manipulative and 2) the only reason what he did was even "bad" is because Court computers seem to work a lot different from normal computers. Combine the two and while intellectually I can appreciate that I'm supposed to think "woah, Jack has major problems", emotionally I just am not affected. To be fair, for someone who doesn't work with computers a lot the scene probably works just fine.
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