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Post by linnabean on Feb 24, 2010 14:37:14 GMT
wooooah crazy neck there, Coyote and to follow everyone else: AH TEETH INSANE i. love. coyote. I think that the real Ysengrin is a mix of all three, but by my interpretation, what Coyote meant was that the 'real" Yssy is his beautiful ether self, the weak one is how he sees himself, and the scary tree general is how others see him. This also accounts for Ysengrin's comment on this page: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=498 If he truly sees himself as weak, then he isn't... well, I'm not sure if surprised is the right word, but he expects, maybe, to be weak even with Coyote's gift. I think that perhaps Coyote is mistaken in that just one of the forms Annie saw was the real Yssy, and all of them, in fact, are facets of the true Ysengrin. Anyway, that's just my thoughts. Great page again!
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Post by cannedbreadmaker on Feb 24, 2010 15:02:30 GMT
Clearly Coyote gives gifts to avoid difficult questions.
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Post by linnabean on Feb 24, 2010 15:43:13 GMT
what a good strategy!
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Post by La Goon on Feb 24, 2010 16:49:10 GMT
I hope Annie would have the sense not to accept a gift from Coyote, his gifts have a tendency not to work out as planned. Yeah, accepting a gift from Coyote seems risky to say the least. It could be a heck of a plot booster though. Maybe she'll do like Reynardine; rejecting the gift at first and then later find herself in a situation where she could really use it and come back to accept the gift then... Also: WHOA TEETH!!
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Post by the bandit on Feb 24, 2010 17:15:31 GMT
I love trickster gods.
EDIT: Also, Pyro, you need to edit your subject line. Typo on the number.
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Post by Seth Thresher on Feb 24, 2010 18:40:45 GMT
"Here Annie! I will give you the power of red hair!" "Uh..." "Yeah, well now it's MORE red!" "It's blue, Coyote." " "
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amanmademonster
Junior Member
That's not a nice thing to say about a nun
Posts: 57
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Post by amanmademonster on Feb 24, 2010 20:17:26 GMT
I'm sorry, it's the first thing that came to my mind...
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Post by rowlock on Feb 24, 2010 20:39:25 GMT
Honestly, as impressive as the teeth may be, it's his eye in the final panel that really gives me the jibblies. Yikes. That is not the eye of someone whose gifts I would readily accept...
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Post by wynne on Feb 24, 2010 20:49:40 GMT
Hey! That's my line! For once, it seems that rather than arguing about everything, we're coming to a kind of consensus and waiting to see what happens. I mean, everyone seems to fall into one of two groups: Either the "Yssy's true self is in the ether, how he sees himself is in the weak body, and how everyone else sees him is Mr. Tree" group (Which is my camp), or the ultra-deep- and metaphorical "he is all - but none" camp. And no one in either group is trying to start a death fight over their theory. Hooray! If we get more ether trips with Coyote later on, can we pleasepleasepleaseplease call it "Coyote-Vision" or something like that? If that's what he sees all the time, no wonder he's insane!
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Post by evilanagram on Feb 24, 2010 21:21:00 GMT
I'd go with the Ysengrin's ethereal form is the true self, since, as an ethereal form, it's the accumulation of all that he is. The weak, emaciated wolf in the middle is how Ysengrin sees himself since he only reveals it when he feels he is alone; it's the aspect of himself he feels he has to hide from the world.
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Post by the bandit on Feb 24, 2010 23:05:02 GMT
I guess I could technically, with enough philosophical prodding, fall in the "he is all three" camp, but really it makes the most sense to say that we saw how he truly is two pages ago. I attributed the statements in a left-to-right way, but can understand foreground-to-back (right-to-left), and keep highest in mind that the whole point of the statement is to cause confusion.
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Pig_catapult
Full Member
Keeper of the Devilkitty
Posts: 171
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Post by Pig_catapult on Feb 25, 2010 2:30:28 GMT
Re: Which Ysengrin is which: I think it's foreground-to-background/right-to-left. Most people Ysengrin interacts with see him as the tree guy, and he sees himself as a weak, shriveled husk of his former self, but, in the aether, the physical being is stripped away and the soul is laid bare for all to see.
Ysengrin has a very beautiful soul.
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Post by parrellel on Feb 25, 2010 4:08:28 GMT
Hello, new here.
My take on the three Ysengrins is mad beast, coyotes lacky, and intelligent being. To me this seems to map nicely to Tree Monster, old dieing wolf, and etheric god.
Just my thoughts
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amanmademonster
Junior Member
That's not a nice thing to say about a nun
Posts: 57
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Post by amanmademonster on Feb 25, 2010 5:35:11 GMT
Hello, new here. My take on the three Ysengrins is mad beast, coyotes lacky, and intelligent being. To me this seems to map nicely to Tree Monster, old dieing wolf, and etheric god. Just my thoughts I like this but I think I'd switch dieing wolf and tree monster around.
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Post by the bandit on Feb 25, 2010 17:07:32 GMT
No, weakness and submission are better parallels than weakness and bestial ferocity.
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Post by cannedbreadmaker on Feb 25, 2010 19:03:43 GMT
We also got to see the "body of Reynardine".
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Post by xanbcoo on Feb 25, 2010 19:08:01 GMT
I'm sorry, it's the first thing that came to my mind... Holy crap, I'm dying.
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raef
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by raef on Feb 25, 2010 22:07:53 GMT
What a complicated way to say "don't judge a book by its cover."
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Post by Midnight Meadows on Feb 26, 2010 2:30:45 GMT
One of my favorite things about Coyote (and the list is long) are his random energetic outbursts.
The teeth and look and his eyes just totally sell it.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Feb 26, 2010 4:30:35 GMT
Yes. Investigate. It's not like that revelation would disturb her and make her want to get away from the Court for a bit.How often does Annie ask people half the questions that we, the readers, want her to ask? She seems more upfront with Coyote than she is with most of the Court staff, but she's still pretty secretive and self-reliant. And as was already pointed out, Annie is trying to forget for a little while about the nasty revelation from last chapter, so she's not in a mood to go inquiring about it. I guess the aforementioned sight of Rey's body (which will no doubt change the dynamic of Annie and Rey's relationship), and Annie's telekinesis lessons, and the fact that Annie finally knows about that cut on her face, are all nothing? Why force Annie to ride on Ysengrin's back? Because it's awkward. He's a trickster. Why tell Annie to get off? Because it wasn't producing sparks like he wanted. He's a trickster. My G*d, it's full of stars... Oh, wait, I forgot, that doesn't count. Darn. So this is the easy way? We clearly are not reading the same comic.Maybe typing all this out was a mistake. Dude I'm replying to probably won't ever see it.
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Post by Refugee on Feb 26, 2010 5:49:08 GMT
So, uhm, going by the interpretation that the "beautiful", etheric Ysengrin is the "real" one -- The "Real Annie" has a cut on her cheek and can't affect things in the physical world? [edit] And notice how crucial her hair is to the "real"Annie. And that the "real" Annie doesn't wear makeup -- which, of course, is entirely correct. Makeup is inherently untruthful. Of course, so are clothes, in a sense.... [/edit] I can see some interesting consequences if that's true; I'm just pointing out that Ysengrin and Coyote are not the only ones seen in this vision. === Hmm, then there's this [680]: "The real Reynard is trapped in the Court."
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Post by linnabean on Feb 26, 2010 14:10:35 GMT
Hmm, then there's this [680]: "The real Reynard is trapped in the Court." Yes, but it is only his body that is in the forest. Etheric Rey is in the court. So going by the logic, it would make sense that Etheric Ysengrin is the real one, since if the real Rey is in the court, and Annie's stuffed wolf is obviously is just how everyone sees him, the only option is that etheric Reynardine is his real self. Parallel that with Ysengrin and you get etheric Ysengrin = real Ysengrin.
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optern
Junior Member
Posts: 84
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Post by optern on Feb 26, 2010 16:46:08 GMT
I honestly think this has been one of the better chapters, and it has accomplished a lot--much more than I expected, truthfully. Besides, it's good contrast to the robot chapter, which was very Court-centric.
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Post by the bandit on Feb 26, 2010 17:06:30 GMT
Maybe typing all this out was a mistake. Dude I'm replying to probably won't ever see it. No. Dude needed to be put in his place, and others will know that his criticism does not stand in all of our eyes.
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Post by Refugee on Feb 26, 2010 21:21:12 GMT
OK, I'm thinking on the keys here, and so this is rather jumbled. My apologies. Hmm, then there's this [680]: "The real Reynard is trapped in the Court." Yes, but it is only his body that is in the forest. Etheric Rey is in the court....[respectfully snipped] [ bold mine] I think there's a deliberate sleight of hand taking place here, although whether it's Tom's or Coyote's doing remains to be seen. (I'm going to assume that it's one of Coyote's tricks.) Essentially, Coyote's trying to get Annie to confuse the real with the important. He's trying to get her to see the Etheric view as more important than the physical view, and as more important than the perceptions of others. (This dismissal of the perceptions of others is a classic head-cop, and it's dangerously false. We are social animals, pack animals, and we live or die with how others see us, unless we are hermits -- and Annie is not remotely a hermit, and she'd be useless if she was.) Coyote's using vocabulary as his smoke and mirrors. The three Aspects are perhaps more properly identified as Etheric, Biologic, and Public). They are all equally "Real", particularly to someone like Annie, who is being groomed to communicate across boundaries. In particular, I think the Etheric Aspect most closely aligns with self-perception. The Biological fox-body is gray,almost lifeless, when viewed in its Etheric aspect, because Etherically, it's empty. It is not self-aware. I think we have not yet seen Reynardine's Etheric Aspect. But his Biological body is absolutely real, you could touch it, and it's important, or Coyote would not be preserving it for Reynardine, and be so anxious for him to be restored to it. Annie's hair figures prominently in her Etheric aspect because it's emblematic to Annie of who she is. (And it is notable that her makeup is not, not even as gray smudges.) The two more highly trained adepts, Coyote and Ysengrin, have Etheric Aspects that are very stripped down; Coyote in particular is nothing but Teeth and Eyes. Ysengrin is Nose and Fur (and Eyes, but blurred out into Green Beauty). And both are covered with that intricate reticulation which, as I recall, is typical of Etheric computers as well. Annie completely lacks that reticulation. Instead, she's still displaying her clothing, as gray and negligible in the Etheric Aspect as Reynardine's body. This in marked contrast with Ysengrin's Fur, which is, biologically speaking, as dead as the fiber of Annie's clothing -- but somehow, it is central to his self-image, in a way Annie's clothing is not to her. She can't do without it, but she invests it with none of her Presence, either. (No, I'm not saying Annie will eventually go Etherically Nude, but instead I think the suit represents an aspect of her personality that is as yet undeveloped -- her sexuality[158], and that is at some point going to become very important to her. Coyote's cheerful nosing of her skirt, back in the Court, was not an idle jest. What he was going for, what he saw, what he needs Annie to see, is not the prim school uniform, but the lifeless gray shell which is not in any way part of her -- yet. I wonder what Annie's Mom's dress looked like in her Etheric Aspect.) Her hair, on the other hand, the closest analog she has to fur, flows all around her, and is clearly central to her self-perception, and her power. I think she should have tried to grasp the flower with her hair, and not her hand.... She also bears the cut on her face; she's scarcely aware of it, but at some level, she bears an unhealed wound ( inflicted by Jeanine's spirit, if I understand all that aright.) Going back, then, to Coyote's riddle, using Ysengrin as his example: The Biological Ysengrin (Probably the aspect Coyote's pointing to with "The way he sees himself") is the mangy, weak, shaking body that Annie has just seen. It is absolutely real, but Ysengrin has neglected it very much to his detriment. The Etheric Ysengrin ("the way he truly is") is, as I said, Nose and Fur -- and, as Annie noted, Beauty. No teeth, though. It would be a terrible mistake, I suspect, to think that his Etheric Aspect is not still terribly dangerous, if needed, but it's entirely possible that he is somehow neglecting a crucial part of it. Ysengrin's Public Aspect("The way others see him") is, of course, the Tree, Coyote's "perfect" gift. It remains to be seen if the Tree is the cause of Ysengrin's weakness, or Coyote's version of lifesupport. Annie does not have clearly distinguished Aspects; in particular, her Biologic Aspect and her Public Aspect are indistinguishable. (Although perhaps we simply have not seen her Biologic Aspect, due to Annie's chastity.) It's possible that this reflects a very strong self-knowledge, a very high degree of integration, but I think it's more likely a reflection of the fact that she is as yet untrained, undeveloped. She has not yet learned to exercise these different Aspects of herself. Coyote, on the other hand, also blurs his Aspects, but he has clearly developed all three to a very high degree, and can move between them, mix them, very fluidly. He is completely in command of himself, and yet allows himself to run free. Biologic, Etheric, Public: All equally real. All equally important. All crucial to health, self, and power, pretty much in that order. === Fans of Classic SF are probably twigging to my reference to Roger Zelazny's magnificent novel of Buddhism, Hinduism, and politics, Lord of Light, in which technologically augmented humans present themselves as gods via their Aspects and Attributes. This is not an accident. [edit: slight/sleight per Casey, thanks.]
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Post by Casey on Feb 26, 2010 22:03:58 GMT
Maybe it's like a Zen koan: there is no real answer, because the real self is ineffable. Everything we think is real is in fact a construction of some other artificial stratification of the universe, which is in reality unknowable.
I dunno, maybe.
P.S. the expression is -sleight- of hand, by the way.
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Post by Refugee on Feb 26, 2010 22:20:13 GMT
Maybe it's like a Zen koan: there is no real answer... Problem there is, if you accept it in full, there's nothing to talk about. There is an insight to be gained by understanding your point, but by itself, it's empty. Taken to the extreme, you get adepts who use meditation as a drug, to escape the real, not to live more fully in it. Fixed, thanks.
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Post by the bandit on Feb 26, 2010 22:49:18 GMT
Coyote's cheerful nosing of her skirt, back in the Court, was not an idle jest. What he was going for, what he saw, what he needs Annie to see, is not the prim school uniform, but the lifeless gray shell which is not in any way part of her -- yet. Er, I'm going to stick with he's a jerk who wanted to elicit a reaction.
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Post by evilanagram on Feb 26, 2010 22:58:04 GMT
I think we have not yet seen Reynardine's Etheric Aspect. We've seen Reynardine's ethereal aspect several times. In particular, I think the Etheric Aspect most closely aligns with self-perception. I'd disagree. From what Coyote said and looking back at the archives, the ethereal aspect seems more closely identifiable with the "essence" or "core" of a person, which ties more into the concept of mind-body dualism than modern concepts of psychology and sociology. So even if a being (in this case Ysengrin) has a very skewed sense of who they truly are, their ethereal form will show them as they actually are. This is why Ysengrin as he "truly is" (the ethereal form) differs from Ysengrin as he sees himself. Ysengrin and Reynardine both simply appear as the animals they originally were, a wolf and fox respectively. The main difference is that their ethereal bodies are more fluid. Of course, ethereal hair seems very fluid in general, and both Reynard and Ysen are covered in it. That both Reynardine and Ysengrin have lines of symbols along their ethereal bodies seems to either be indicative of the powers Coyote had bestowed on each of them or of the fact that they have both always been somewhat mystical in a manner apart from humans, which is again not related to self-perception. Coyote's ethereal self is also not tied to his self-perception so much as it shows that he is a godlike force of nature distinct from anything else we've seen in the GC universe so far. Reynardine is a fox and Ysengrin is a wolf, but Coyote is not simply a coyote. He is Coyote. I also don't see the "Biologic" being a more proper name name for how any aspect. While Ysengrin's self-view seems heavily influenced by the physical status of his biological body, that does not necessarily carry on to other characters. Reynardine, for example, is biologically a comatose fox, but he probably doesn't see himself as such.
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Post by menschenjaeger on Mar 1, 2010 15:04:46 GMT
Up until this story line, I thought of Coyote as yes, all-powerful, but with no more sense than a child.
Now I see he's brilliant. I'm seriously impressed at how Tom managed to convey that without showing us anything different from the Coyote we've seen before. No "new" facet to his character, but by seeing the result of one of one his seemingly capricious actions, we now understand him a bit better.
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