aegis
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Post by aegis on Nov 22, 2010 16:36:19 GMT
I think he was trying to possess Annie. Renard can make mistakes or have a lapse in judgment just like anyone else. Would he take her if he had the chance now? We could have no idea yet. Renard's motives are a moot point (not a Muut point ) at this stage, so let's just allow Tom to surprise us if/when he chooses to reveal that aspect of the plot.
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Post by jayne on Nov 22, 2010 17:26:59 GMT
That's the Snape Defense: Snape hated Harry Potter on sight because he looked just like his father but had his mother's eyes.
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monte
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Post by monte on Nov 22, 2010 18:40:52 GMT
As I see it, the counterargument is that he was acting for Eglamore's sake. If he wanted to slip out of the court unnoticed in Annie's plushie, he'd have to convince Eglamore that he was going for Annie, and that, when Eglamore foiled his "attempt", he died. He knew Eglamore wouldn't suspect this ruse ( "Eglamore is a fool!"). He loudly announced his intention, to make sure Eglamore heard; he timed his attempt so Eglamore would be able to get there. If we assume that his intent was to escape undetected, taking Annie's body is not a very good way to do it. Annie is tracked by the court, and when she steps off school grounds without permission, alarms go off. If he just took the plushie without tricking Eglamore into thinking him dead, he'd notice that Sivo was dead, so Rey must be in another body. The plan backfired when Annie wound up owning him, so he made the best of things. Overall, his quality of life still went way up. Again, I present this as the strongest argument for Rey not having ever intended to possess Annie. I know that it's a little convoluted, and the explanation that he WAS going for her is simpler, more literal, and thus more likely to be true. However, the alternate explanation fits the comics well enough that I'm willing to sit on the fence. It's not a bad theory, but I think my only issues with it being a ruse is that it seemed like he went further than needed. I mean Annie was holding her doll, even he aimed for the doll instead of annie, Eglamore would not be able to tell the difference. And there is also as Jayne pointed out that Rey at no point tries to ever deny what others say he tried to do. The best response he ever gives is a look of regret Also i don't think grabbing annie's body would have been a bad way to escape. afterall he can hop from body to body. And since he can take anything with eyes that would mean he can even hop inside of a bird or a robot; he doesn't have to stay inside annie, just long enough to get him out of his cell
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ryos
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Post by ryos on Nov 22, 2010 19:35:02 GMT
Unless he wanted to make the court think him dead, so they don't pursue him any longer.
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Post by jayne on Nov 22, 2010 20:39:22 GMT
monte, As soon as Rey possesses someone, they're effectively dead. They don't die until he leaves their body but as far as we know, there's no way for him to leave their body without killing them.
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Post by Eversist on Nov 27, 2010 6:47:55 GMT
I'm surprised no one has posted in here since Friday's update. Annie basically flat-out accused him of trying to possess/kill her, and he didn't deny it. That's not an end-all argument, but at the same time, if Rey wanted to somehow point out that she was wrong so she'd stop her little temper-tantrum she's throwing right now, it'd be a great time to rub something like that in her face.
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Post by theweatherman on Nov 27, 2010 11:12:46 GMT
Rey looks awfully suprised when Annie mentions the fact he tried to kill her, my bet is that after years of imprisonment (maybe some torture) his rose-tinted love for Surma beat his desire to escape by killing someone, he IS the trickster, planning to trick people is what he does.
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Post by facelessminion on Nov 28, 2010 10:45:09 GMT
I'm surprised no one has posted in here since Friday's update. Annie basically flat-out accused him of trying to possess/kill her, and he didn't deny it. That's not an end-all argument, but at the same time, if Rey wanted to somehow point out that she was wrong so she'd stop her little temper-tantrum she's throwing right now, it'd be a great time to rub something like that in her face. Yes, and he certainly confirmed that he tried to possess her, didn't he? No, he didn't. And in point of fact he seemed shocked by the concept. As for diffusing the temper tantrum, I don't think he is of a mood to try and diffuse it in that manner... It seems he's got another bomb to counter-drop on her, after hers to him.
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Post by Eversist on Nov 28, 2010 10:56:32 GMT
There's really no need for the sarcasm. I wasn't pushing that this was solid proof, end debate, hence "That's not an end all argument..."
He could just as easily be expressing surprise at the fact that she knew he went so far as killing someone to try and be with her mother. Or just plain surprise that she's bringing up the topic at all.
I know if someone was accusing me of trying to kill them, and they're in the wrong, I'd be real quick to correct them on their misconception, regardless of the mood I'm in.
I think the reason Annie and Rey have skirted this topic for so long is because it is truly not a pleasant topic thing to think about, especially since they are now (well, not so sure after this) friends. Everyone makes mistakes, and oftentimes it's best just not to bring up past transgressions.
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Post by hanneswall on Nov 28, 2010 16:42:38 GMT
Of course we would deny it if someone accused us of trying to murder someone and they were wrong. But WE aren't Rey and how much insight do we really have into how he thinks? Perhaps he believes denying it would be pointless as no one would believe him anyway?
If someone who has killed before acts like he is about to kill you as well, would you believe him if he later claims it to have been a ruse? History is full of people taking the blame for something they didn't do for various reasons, so I don't really see this as conclusive evidence in this debate.
And I don't think we'll get anywhere until Tom actually spells it out for us.
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monte
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Post by monte on Nov 28, 2010 17:08:22 GMT
I'm surprised no one has posted in here since Friday's update. Annie basically flat-out accused him of trying to possess/kill her, and he didn't deny it. That's not an end-all argument, but at the same time, if Rey wanted to somehow point out that she was wrong so she'd stop her little temper-tantrum she's throwing right now, it'd be a great time to rub something like that in her face. Yes, and he certainly confirmed that he tried to possess her, didn't he? No, he didn't. And in point of fact he seemed shocked by the concept. As for diffusing the temper tantrum, I don't think he is of a mood to try and diffuse it in that manner... It seems he's got another bomb to counter-drop on her, after hers to him. I don't think he was shocked by the concept, but surprised Annie brought it up This would not be the first time that someone as brought up the issue, and he reacts the same as he did in the most recent strip... with a look of regret Of course we would deny it if someone accused us of trying to murder someone and they were wrong. But WE aren't Rey and how much insight do we really have into how he thinks? Perhaps he believes denying it would be pointless as no one would believe him anyway? If someone who has killed before acts like he is about to kill you as well, would you believe him if he later claims it to have been a ruse? Unless you take into account the simple fact that Reynard quite literally must tell the TRUTH when talking to Annie; a concept that Annie herself is fully aware of. Anything he claims MUST be true as far as he himself knows... only way he could lie is if he did not know the truth himself or was in EXTREME denial (doesn't except the truth). So ya, he has no reason to think Annie would not believe him if he said so
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 28, 2010 22:36:58 GMT
Of course we would deny it if someone accused us of trying to murder someone and they were wrong. But WE aren't Rey and how much insight do we really have into how he thinks? Tell that to the folks who say that Rey's current, paternal feelings for Annie mean that he was never capable of trying to kill her.
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Post by scyllarus on Nov 29, 2010 6:35:07 GMT
let's add more fuel to the fire, gais!
i've got to agree with monte's point: annie knows full well that rey can't tell a lie to her or disobey her (of course, we've got the silence defense and the "well you didn't tell me NOT to do this" loophole, but those aren't applicable right now) and rey, even now, doesn't say anything in response to her accusation of him trying to possess her. hell, not just "possess," she claims he tried to kill her. in the light of the stuff she just threw at him, why wouldn't he tell her that he didn't mean to possess her? that revelation would probably derail annie's rant, which would be preferable to listening to how good a marriage/life surma and anthony had.
honestly, you can see how rey's being alienated in the art work, and it starts at her accusation that he tried to kill her. he's facing her up until then, and then he turns away with a sorrowful look on his face. whether it's regret, or some sort of "you'll never know this dark secret," it seems to indicate that those words hurt him like the realization that surma never loved him, since he's "turning" in a similar fashion, since annie gave him a command not to change forms. with each successive verbal attack, he turns away more.
and personally, i think the only reason why he brings up this tidbit of the past is because he has nothing else to use. what could he say that would be an equal counter? "your classmates don't like you?" that's not true. "the court is terrible?" yeah, yeah, she already thinks so. "coyote is a terrible god?" well, she's not stupid, she knows this. "you're a stupid child who can't even do her homework?" ahem, "you're a fool who killed an innocent blah blah blah." he's got something bad about surma, maybe even anthony or annie herself, and it's true, and he has nothing else in his arsenal while she's got him cornered.
if he does have something else to say to defuse/counter annie, i think he would have said it. he's all paternal toward her, and when it comes down to it, i think he's sick of being the bad guy. he wants a place in her heart, too, and maybe he sees her argument as a confirmation that unless he butts one of her parents out, that'll never happen.
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monte
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Post by monte on Nov 29, 2010 10:33:35 GMT
I think with the latest strip we might have another piece of the puzzle. Reynard can't lie so we are getting a taste of how really he feels. I'd wager that back when he met Annie, deep down he was angry with her... He knew who she was and what it meant; and it can be so very easy to misplace blame when you're emotionally distraught. Not only was he desperate for escape, but deep down some part of him may have blamed Annie for Surma's death; at the very least that may take away any feeling he might have had for holding back, and made him willing to kill her...
But after being stuck with Annie things began to change. Reynard shows looks of regret whenever his attack on Annie is brought up. It's possible he came to realize that he shouldn't be blaming Annie, or that Annie didn't deserve to die... deep down he might still feel some hatred and feel she is to blame(that's what we are probably seeing right now), but the more rational side of him may realize that no one can control the circumstances of their birth. Or maybe he even realizes that Annie was hurting as much as he was. In any case, one part of him can't help but hate her, while the other side knows she's kindhearted and doesn't deserve such blame... he's kinda torn on the subject, though most of the time his more rational side is in control (not so much right now...)
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Post by Alexandragon on Jan 21, 2011 9:50:10 GMT
Hm. Right now I'm absolutely agree with you, monte.
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Post by warrl on Jan 21, 2011 15:57:49 GMT
Just to add to the mix: Rey knew that Annie isn't precisely human. In fact I doubt that he had ever previously occupied the body of a being that is part supernatural. Perhaps he thought that, because of that part-supernatural bit, Annie might not die...
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Post by caseykoons on Nov 9, 2012 16:03:47 GMT
I'm new to the form, and only made it down through the first four orfive pages of posts before my urge to contribute burst through my fingertips. I humbly apologize insofar as my suggestions echo those made by earlier posters. My favorite question in life to ask is Why. In this case, why do we care about whether or not Reynardine planned to kill Annie in their second encounter? The answer to this seems pretty clear to me: it's a sharp inconsistency with his character, which many have cited as being quite devoted to Annie and considered by the God Coyote as unable to do such a monstrous thing. Being just as subject to the impulse to excuse Rey from this crime, I tend to be sympathetic to the argument that this was an elaborate ruse on the demon's part. My rationalizations are: That's how I personally like to rescue Rey from his sin. But I'm sympathetic to those who suggest he really did plan to kill her and think there may be an even better explanation of his character change that agrees with that position: Simple Redemption. There is a narrative pattern found in many manga and anime where the protagonist's party grows as the series of villains s/he faces are converted over to her/his side. I think of this dynamic when Annie herself reflects on it in www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=875. She has a tendency to convert enemies into allies, which is a quality that many heroines possess. Maybe Rey was a monster and had every intention of murdering the daughter of his true love to save himself. And maybe he's changed. Not because the toy exerts some power over him, but because of the things he's experienced: the opportunity he's had to actually grow close to humans the way he wanted, the chance to express and feel love. Maybe he's been redeemed. Two acts of speculation. The first was fun to work out, but I like the second one better. The fact that its hard for us to square "killer Rey" with "friend/protector/father-figure Rey" might well not be an inconsistency, but actually a facet of the wonderful depth of Tom's characters.
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alexh
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Post by alexh on Nov 9, 2012 17:30:32 GMT
Beautiful. I love both of your theories. I'm glad you resurrected this thread, as the character inconsistency bothered me as well. I had no idea so many people had already discussed this.
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Post by lordofpotatoes on Dec 5, 2012 21:31:30 GMT
I'm rereading the whole comic, and now when I'm close to where we are now I realize, Coyote seem to have control over Ysengrin, he did'n't want to attack Antimony, but Coyote somehow made him attack.
I got the idea that the power given to him made him controllable, and then I realize, Reynardine also got powers from Coyote. But then Reynardine got into Antimony's possesion and Coyote's plan failed.
A simple way of explaining why Coyote wanted Rey to kill her was simply to get him to escape because he was needed for something. But my first thought was that Surma didn't have anything to give to the ether since the flame passed onto Antimony and that's why the psychopomps didn't guide her. So if Annie dies without passing the flame unto her future children all the stories about Coyote will be released into the ether and Coyote will be even stronger.
Maybe a bit far fetched, but I'm just making this theory available for anyone interested.
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Post by Nnelg on Dec 5, 2012 22:34:26 GMT
I'm rereading the whole comic, and now when I'm close to where we are now I realize, Coyote seem to have control over Ysengrin, he did'n't want to attack Antimony, but Coyote somehow made him attack. Yeah, he did. It's called "Pushing his Buttons". ( Why Coyote did so is less clear...)
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Post by lordofpotatoes on Dec 5, 2012 23:55:24 GMT
I'm rereading the whole comic, and now when I'm close to where we are now I realize, Coyote seem to have control over Ysengrin, he did'n't want to attack Antimony, but Coyote somehow made him attack. Yeah, he did. It's called "Pushing his Buttons". ( Why Coyote did so is less clear...) I meant more literally, like, mind control. Cause he seemed to know Ys would flip but he wasn't there to manipulate the conversation and then Ysengrin acts like his body acted against his will saying stuff like; "Why did I attack her?" Then Coyote removes the memories of what he did. To me it's pretty clear that Coyote literally mainpulated his mind and made him attack and then removed all the evidence so Ys can continue being a puppet.
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Post by Nnelg on Dec 6, 2012 0:42:44 GMT
To me it's pretty clear that Coyote literally mainpulated his mind and made him attack and then removed all the evidence so Ys can continue being a puppet. While there is some merit to your theory, this isn't the thread to discuss it on. Start a new one, rather than trying to graverob* this one. *Graverob: A term I made up just now to describe a combination of Necroing and Hijacking; as in Necroing a thread with an off-topic post.
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Ender
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Post by Ender on Dec 7, 2012 14:38:35 GMT
Me? I take the boring route. I think Tom just hadn't completely planned out Rey's character at that point and made him more evil than he ended up being.
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tpman
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Post by tpman on Mar 18, 2013 18:32:24 GMT
Perhaps the reason Rey announced his intent to posses Annie so loudly was to draw Eglamore back into the room and perhaps posses him? Rey might not be big on killing people but he and Eggers don't exactly see eye to eye* (not for Rey's lack of trying**). Plan B then would be to posses Annie or the toy. I'm still in the "Annie by force" camp but I thought I'd throw that out there.
*Get it? ** You know because of the possession thing?*** *** I ruined the joke by explaining it didn't I?
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Post by todd on Mar 18, 2013 22:36:05 GMT
I've sometimes wondered whether the Reynardine/Renard situation is a bit like the case of Spike in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer".
Spike gets a chip put in his head that keeps him from attacking humans, meaning that he's now (for the moment) unable to harm Buffy and her friends - has been de-fanged, in a way. During this time, he is handled in a more comedic fashion with such features as acidic wit, and enters a truce with Buffy and her friends, a truce imposed upon him because he can't do anything to them without that chip activating. He becomes, in a sense, part of the group, though the writers would remind the audience, from time to time, that that's just because of the chip, and if it was ever removed, he'd embark on a fresh bloodbath. Then, as Spike started showing other things (such as feelings for Buffy), the writers themselves apparently either forgot those warnings or decided to put them aside, reaching the point where Spike, by the time his chip has been removed, has genuinely changed for the better.
Perhaps the same thing's happened with Reynardine. Trapped in the body of a stuffed animal that Annie owned and therefore unable to possess/kill anyone, he becomes first more comedic (such as when Annie catches him having a tea party with Kat's action figures), then starts showing protector features (once his ability to change into a regular wolf is revealed). The audience starts thinking of him as more comic or like a guardian, and less likely to betray Annie (with a few exceptions, maybe, who suspect that if Annie's control over Reynardine was ever undone, he'd go on a possession spree, leaving corpses scattered all over the Court of bodies he'd abandoned after inhabiting for a while). And we come to find it harder to believe that he'd really try to possess/kill Annie, especially after we learned things about his backstory with Surma.
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Post by stef1987 on Apr 4, 2013 20:52:53 GMT
huh, good call about the Spike/Renard thing, never realised this. I think that we want to believe that Reynardine was really after the doll rather than Annie all along, because most of us have gotten fond of Reynardine in the course of the webcomic (the best tricksters have a lot of charm - and remember that Reynardine was once Reynard the Fox, one of the great tricksters of legend and literature). At the climax of Chapter Three, Reynardine knew that Annie was the daughter of the woman whom he'd fallen in love with all those years ago, and still was so much in love with that he had lamented her death upon realizing that it had taken place. If he was then ready to deceive and murder (for he knew that possessing Annie would kill her) Surma's own child, that would make him a true monster, and his act a monstrous one (even if he was desperate to escape). And we're so fond of the guy that we don't want to believe that of him. I don't know as yet if Reynardine had intented it all along or not (the story will probably reveal it eventually, in some later chapter), and won't try to speculate. That's what I think too, I want to believe Renard never wanted to kill Annie, but yeah :s (btw, this is a looooong thread, so I didn't read all posts, sorry) anyway, I'm actually curious about the metal things that come out of Renards body: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=54, as far as I know, no one ever asked about it, but I find it strange, I mean, he's not a robot, so what's with all those robot/machine stuff? (also seen when annie asks him to pick the lock to steal Robot's chip)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2013 21:43:13 GMT
anyway, I'm actually curious about the metal things that come out of Renards body: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=54, as far as I know, no one ever asked about it, but I find it strange, I mean, he's not a robot, so what's with all those robot/machine stuff? (also seen when annie asks him to pick the lock to steal Robot's chip) Antimony stored her lockpicks in there as she also has a bad habit of exploring places she shouldn't. When Renard possessed the toy, he gained control over the entire body, including the lockpicks within. And re-reading Chapter 3, I believe it was always Reynardine's intention to possess the toy, as his noticing of the stuffed animal is made quite explicit during their first encounter. He didn't do it right there either for fear of suspicion from Eglamore or because the binding around/through his leg prevented him from taking another body. I doubt he anticipated the binding contract that Surma placed over the doll, and I wouldn't be completely surprised if she anticipated this happening - this could have been her way of trying to make some amends for what she did to Reynardine.
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Post by GK Sierra on Apr 4, 2013 21:59:18 GMT
anyway, I'm actually curious about the metal things that come out of Renards body: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=54, as far as I know, no one ever asked about it, but I find it strange, I mean, he's not a robot, so what's with all those robot/machine stuff? (also seen when annie asks him to pick the lock to steal Robot's chip) Antimony stored her lockpicks in there as she also has a bad habit of exploring places she shouldn't. You mean an awesome habit. ;D More to the topic, I think Reynardine's escape attempt was a moment of rash desperation and frustration, not a real concerted attempt to kill Antimony.
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Post by thedoomblahsong on May 31, 2013 12:40:25 GMT
Sorry to resurrect a dead thread, and it's possible someone has said this (I'm not going to read the whole thread) but it seems as though the Trick camp are neglecting an important detail: how the heck could Renard count on Annie's AND Eglamore's backs being turned gunnerkrigg.com/?p=54 just as he's possessing the toy? Someone might say that he's kind of a god, so maybe he has the power to anticipate everyone's motions exaclty (even though we've never seen any of the ethereal characters doing that) BUT he also curses while he's possessing the toy, with a huge risk that Eggers will hear. I also haven't seen any good reason for not telling Annie that he never intended to possess her, after all this time, the development of their relationship, and all that has been revealed about both of them! What the heck would be the motive for that? A major argument for the trick theory is that Rey knew he could possess either Annie or the doll. As I understand it, it's not that Surma made the doll, but the simple fact that it is an object the belongs to Annie, that forces Renard to obey. So it wouldn't require any special insight on Rey's part to know what his fate would be and to prefer to avoid it, after all those years in captivity. He seems to resent the humiliation early on, and pisses Annie off often. How could he know that Annie would protect him anyway? Why should she, after learning what he's done to Sivo, and that he tried to trick her? It was pretty surprising when Annie decided to intervene on his side when the adults discovered him gunnerkrigg.com/?p=107. If you ask me, the trick theory is downright farfetched.
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Post by sidhekin on May 31, 2013 16:24:29 GMT
Renard didn't know at the time that "Surma made this body"; he learned that later. The theory that the archetypical trickster really did pull a trick is still my head canon, though. It's just less depressing that way.
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