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Post by Aris Katsaris on Aug 28, 2009 21:41:24 GMT
Discuss.
My own view is that Reynardine never attempted to possess Annie, that he was after the stuffed toy from the start. Mainly based on Coyote's disbelief that Reynardine would ever harm Surma's daughter. --- PS: I'd appreciate if people who made comments regarding this matter in the "cool things I only noticed on reread" thread to copy-paste them here, and then please delete them from that thread.
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Post by the bandit on Aug 28, 2009 22:03:43 GMT
I, too, favor the philosophy that crafty Reynardine intended to fake his own death and hide in the doll from the start; his escape plan was thwarted by Antimony's ownership of the doll. There are also a couple of panels that foreshadow this in their first meeting. "Well, the mind is nothing but a plaything of the body, correct?" I've always read as irony: It's the other way around.
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Post by Mishmash on Aug 28, 2009 22:13:04 GMT
I was convinced I was right about my theory that Rey was always after the doll until I re-read that chapter and saw how Rey's spirit (or whatever it is) arches over Annie's head and then we get a close-up of Annie's eye with Rey's spirit mere millimetres away.
Surely if he'd been going for the toy he'd have shot straight forwards rather than upwards?
Unless he was trying to make it look like he was possessing Annie and planning to miss and hit the toy... but then that was a pretty big gamble because it almost didn't work (Eglamore only just saved Annie in time) and if Rey didn't want to kill Annie would he have taken such a big risk that could have resulted in her death?
Hmm...
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Post by todd on Aug 28, 2009 22:27:46 GMT
I think that we want to believe that Reynardine was really after the doll rather than Annie all along, because most of us have gotten fond of Reynardine in the course of the webcomic (the best tricksters have a lot of charm - and remember that Reynardine was once Reynard the Fox, one of the great tricksters of legend and literature). At the climax of Chapter Three, Reynardine knew that Annie was the daughter of the woman whom he'd fallen in love with all those years ago, and still was so much in love with that he had lamented her death upon realizing that it had taken place. If he was then ready to deceive and murder (for he knew that possessing Annie would kill her) Surma's own child, that would make him a true monster, and his act a monstrous one (even if he was desperate to escape). And we're so fond of the guy that we don't want to believe that of him.
I don't know as yet if Reynardine had intented it all along or not (the story will probably reveal it eventually, in some later chapter), and won't try to speculate.
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Post by Casey on Aug 28, 2009 22:40:21 GMT
Mishmash he always shoots upwards out of his host's eyes when he's switching bodies. Check out his possession of Surma's suitor, in Chapter 20.
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Post by Casey on Aug 28, 2009 22:42:56 GMT
P.S.: If Reynardine wanted to possess Annie, why not do it the very first instant he saw her? Wouldn't that have been much easier?
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Post by Mishmash on Aug 28, 2009 22:44:10 GMT
True, but that doesn't stamp on my point because in that flashback he is trying to take the body of that man, so he arches over his head and down into his eyes. My point was he wouldn't have had to arch over Annie if he was going for the doll, he could have just gone by her shoulder and then down into the doll's eyes.
I'm not sure if that was too clear, but I don't want to get into an arguement about it anyway because I am On The Fence in this matter.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Aug 28, 2009 23:52:17 GMT
Unless he was trying to make it look like he was possessing Annie and planning to miss and hit the toy... but then that was a pretty big gamble because it almost didn't work (Eglamore only just saved Annie in time) and if Rey didn't want to kill Annie would he have taken such a big risk that could have resulted in her death? Well, yeah, the idea of Reynard going for the toy is indeed one with the idea of him intentionally crafting a deception/distraction with his shouted claim that he was in need of Annie's body. But risk? That makes an assumption that he doesn't have absolute control over his choice of possession, that he needs to "aim and shoot" or something.
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Post by Quotidian on Aug 28, 2009 23:53:28 GMT
I think it's an arguement between Reynardine's desire to survive and his obvious affinity to Annie from her mother. My guess is the latter would need to give way to the former and he was in that position at that time of the story.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Aug 29, 2009 0:01:39 GMT
But I think a more relevant question is WHY would he ever prefer Annie's body over that of the toy? If he possessed Annie, he'd just be imprisoned again - or the Court would decide he was too dangerous for mere captivity and execute him. By possessing the toy he both has a disguise and hiding place and also a much more likeable to him jailor (than Eglamore) if he's discovered anyway.
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Post by King Mir on Aug 29, 2009 0:02:22 GMT
I take it like I see it, and I see a figure going for Annie's eyes.
I agree with todd about the why people don't want to believe it. But that's what the comic shows. Tom has been know to leave subtle hints when things aren't what they seem, but there are no such hints here.
As for Coyote's opinion of Rey: I suspect that Rernardine acted in desperation. He was desperate for a chance to escape, and finally he had a chance. He's an untamed fox, being held like that had to be particularly hard for him. Desperation can bring people to do surprising things.
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Post by todd on Aug 29, 2009 0:05:13 GMT
But I think a more relevant question is WHY would he ever prefer Annie's body over that of the toy? If he possessed Annie, he'd just be imprisoned again - or the Court would decide he was too dangerous for mere captivity and execute him. Assuming that the Court knew that Reynardine had possessed her. He might have been counting on being able to slip out of the cell in Annie's body before Eglamore came back, and covering up her visit.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Aug 29, 2009 0:21:45 GMT
As for Coyote's opinion of Rey: I suspect that Rernardine acted in desperation. He was desperate for a chance to escape, and finally he had a chance. Um, no, he had *two* chances. Annie's body, or the toy. So the desperation you indicate as a solution doesn't really work for me. Sure he was desparate -- desparate to take the toy. Why would he be desparate to take possession of Annie, though? Now, that's just silly. From seeing Reynardine notice and inquire after the toy from his first encounter to Annie, to Coyote's claims that Reynardine would not harm Surma's daughter, to the fact that Reynardine never actually put into words (after he became her property) that he attempted to possess Annie (he merely tells her "don't be melodramatic" when she accuses him of trying to murder her, he neither admits it nor refuses it), the comic is filled with hints to that effect. They may not be *conclusive* hints, and I can certainly accept that some people may not be convinced by them, but they're certainly hints. Don't try to deny their existence. Even if he found that a more likely chance to escape than the toy -- slip out of the cell and then what? Go back to the forest? He resisted going back to the forest even when there was a big robot trying to take him back there with force. It seems to me that from what we know of Reynardine he'd be more likely to find his current predicament (the company of Surma's daughter, to tease and watch out for, and even protect) a much more pleasant scenario that the actual possession of her body.
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Post by King Mir on Aug 29, 2009 0:51:06 GMT
Um, no, he had *two* chances. Annie's body, or the toy. So the desperation you indicate as a solution doesn't really work for me. Sure he was desparate -- desparate to take the toy. Why would he be desparate to take possession of Annie, though? Why would he be desperate to jump from one prison to another? Mrs Donland knew that Rey possessing Annies toy would bind him to her, and it follows that Rey did too. No, if Rey was acting in desperation, then he was going for Annie. Trickery and desperation don't mix. But all of those hints appear after the fact. They do make apparent that Rey "cares deeply for" Annie. But they don't challenge what actually happened. Excepting the point that Rey does not confirm he tried to posses Annie. And if that had seemed the least bit unnatural, I would agree with your points. But not confirming that he is a monster is exactly what I would do in his shoes in that scene. If he did try to take Annie's body, I'd expect him to down play it, and dismissing it is his way of doing that. Another point: If Eglamore had left, as he apparently had, then the simpler way to possess Annie's toy is to go for it directly. Perhaps he could even ask her for it. Instead he asked for her body. But really this is minor compared to the fact that there is no actual evidence that Rey's actions were different then shown. It's all speculation based on motivation.
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Post by Seth Thresher on Aug 29, 2009 1:10:20 GMT
I really think that he was just trying to escape. His plan was to take Annie, she had no idea what would be coming. Unfortunately he got foiled, and he was super pissed, and in a moment of bleak desperation took the toy, more or less by accident because it happened to be there.
It seems to me the simplest, believable explanation, and is strengthened to me by him making a swear. When people who don't normally swear do, it puts them into a somewhat sharper relief. His plan failed and he was about to die, he wasn't feeling too hot about life.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Aug 29, 2009 2:26:30 GMT
Why would he be desperate to jump from one prison to another? Annie's ownership of Reynardine can hardly be described in the same terms as the prison Eglamore held him in. And as Coyote indicated, Reynardine has an interest in staying close to Antimony. Um, what? I don't understand what this even means. Yes, Coyote's disbelief that Reynardine would attempt something like that, appears after his attempt. That's what forces us to reevaluate the earlier happenings given the new clue. How does that make the clue any less invalid, simply because it is given us afterwards? Other clues ofcourse (e.g. Reynardine noticing the toy) happened before the fact. "I steal people's bodies, and indeed have killed the creature whose body I'm currently in, please help me out of this jail". No, I don't see Annie letting a body-stealing demon go free, if Reynardine revealed to her that's what he was. The moment Annie knew Reynardine could steal bodies is the moment she stops helping him -- and if he has revealed to her he can also possess a doll, then that route of escape becomes impossible. No, he didn't ask for her body. He loudly proclaimed he was going to grab her body. Which only tells us that he wanted Annie to *believe* that he wanted to grab her body. Yeah, best kind of speculation there is. Sherlock Holmes was all about cigarrette-butts and such, but Hercule Poirot cared about the psychology of the suspects -- and his mysteries were all the more exciting for that.
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Post by Casey on Aug 29, 2009 3:30:45 GMT
I guess it got missed so I'll say it again, louder.
IF REY WANTED TO POSSESS ANNIE WHY DIDN'T HE DO IT ON THE ROOF OF THE DORM.
OR THE DOLL FOR THAT MATTER.
(I'll give you a hint: Because he wanted to set it up to look like he was DEAD so they would stop hunting him. And by making it look like he was going for Annie and failing, and then popping into the toy and INSTANTLY TRANSFORMING BACK INTO THE TOY FORM, he accomplished exactly that. It was only due to the demonic presence of Zimmy that he ever got outed from his self-described "PERFECT DISGUISE".)
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Post by Mezzaphor on Aug 29, 2009 4:07:11 GMT
Since the OP asked us to restate our prior-stated reasoning: Page 55. In panel 1, he's extended from Sivo's body; Annie's not in frame. In panel 2, he's further extended, and his face and Annie's appear to be half a foot apart. In panel 3, his energy tendrils appear to be less than an inch from her eye. For someone who has no intention of possessing Annie, that's ridiculously close. Later, Rey is revealed in Ch 5. Two bits of context. First, Tom has said that Annie's ownership over Rey's body means he cannot deliberately lie to her. Second, Rey is very eager to get on his mistress' good side, going so far as to sabotage the science fair on the off-chance that Kat's resulting victory would predispose Annie towards him. So, when Rey reveals himself, Annie points out, "You tried to kill me!", and how does Rey reply? He doesn't say "Don't be so melodramatic child! It was merely a ruse so I could take possession of your toy." Doubtless, saying this would have greatly helped him to win Annie's favor. So, if Rey had intended from the start to possess the toy, his failure to point this fact out, right here, is most puzzling. What Rey does say is, "Don't be so melodramatic child! I can do nothing to harm you, now." A wonderful bit of double-speak that downplays what Rey did without explicitly denying it (after all, Rey can't lie). And that "now" tacked on at the end sounds like a tacit admission that he did try to harm her, before. Mainly based on Coyote's disbelief that Reynardine would ever harm Surma's daughter. If Coyote is capable of misjudging someone's age or mistaking a pre-teen girl's jumper for an adult man's sweater, then he's capable of misjudging someone's character. Especially the character of someone whose reluctance to return to the Forest Coyote seems to be in denial over. P.S.: If Reynardine wanted to possess Annie, why not do it the very first instant he saw her? Wouldn't that have been much easier? The first instant he saw Annie, he thought she was Surma, so he naturally wasn't interested in possessing her then. In fact, his joy at seeing Surma again probably made him forget all about escaping for the moment. When Annie corrected his mistake, Rey probably started to suspect that she was Surma's daughter, so this naturally inhibited him from considering possess her. He tried to use her in a different way: he asked Annie to stay by his side, hoping that her presence would keep the Dragon Slayer at bay, and give him time to figure out an escape strategy. Rey's question about the wolf doll wasn't because he was interested in the doll; it was a dodge because he didn't want to answer Annie's question about how he knew Surma. Then Annie fainted, and Eggers hopped over. Rey's request that Eggs "take care of the little one first" seems like a kind gesture at first glance. But, Rey's glowy eyes of body possession in the penultimate panel, coupled with his boasting to Eggs much later, "It was worth it to see the look on your face. I almost took you, this time," leads me to think that Rey tried to possess Eglamore right there on the roof. His comment about taking care of Annie was mostly to make Eggs lower his guard. This, of course, failed, and Rey was taken back into custody. The next morning, Rey was really pissed. He had come infuriatingly close to escaping the night before, and if that wasn't bad enough he now knew that the woman he loved was dead. Annie walked into his cell, and he saw a chance for freedom, and he knew he might never see a similar chance. Rey had been pushed to the absolute limit the night before, and he was now willing to do something that he would have previously considered horrible. Why immediately think of Annie instead of the doll? He may have been using Stalker Logic: "Surma's gone, but if I possess the body of her daughter, it will be almost as good as having Surma back again." His familiarity with possessing living things might mean that he occasionally forgets about the other things with eyes he can possess. He probably thinks inhabiting a stuffed toy is beneath him. He probably knows that a demon in a human body could much more easily pass for normal in human society than a demon in a plushy.
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Post by Casey on Aug 29, 2009 4:13:17 GMT
Wiki "confirmation bias".
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Post by Mezzaphor on Aug 29, 2009 4:54:59 GMT
Wiki "confirmation bias". A blanket dismissal like that does nothing to help me see my (no doubt grievous) error. Throw me a bone, man.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Aug 29, 2009 5:08:58 GMT
That was only a partial explanation he offered, and not even the primary reason. The primary reason was "you never told me not to". To me this seems more as if he was testing the boundaries and limitations of his actions, that he was also enjoying his newfound freedom to cause some mischief, with only a secondary or tertiarty reason that he might ingratiate himself to Annie (he didn't know Annie very well at the time). It'd be completely consistent with *other* times he refuses to acknowledge any special feeling of protectiveness towards Annie -- e.g. #414 or even #283. That's utterly unconnected. That Coyote's not good at judging the physical elements of the human world, is completely unrelated to whether he's able to judge the character of his cousin. Other than Ysengrim, he's the one creature that knows Reynardine the longest, and we should reasonably consider his judgment of Renard to be of some weight rather than merely dismiss it because it doesn't suit our preconceptions.
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Post by Casey on Aug 29, 2009 5:10:21 GMT
Well look, what I said was curt, I admit. But I mean come on, you've got a rationalization for everything... Doubtless this, puzzling that, sounds like this, probably that... I just feel like, rather than look at both possibilities and let logic decide, you've come up with an explanation for everything. You're discounting the possibility of their being any other explanation. So you're not really making an argument, you're stating your opinion with a lot of words. Which is fine, I guess... but your opinion is unassailable. No one can tell you your -opinion- is wrong, because it's your opinion. I think logic and some factual evidence point in another direction, but I think we're at cross-purposes here. Perhaps it would be better to just sit tight and wait for the story to unfold? Because I don't think it would be fair to you for me to pick apart your statements with facts or alternate explanations that contradict them. It sets up two problems to do so: One, that you would feel like your personal beliefs were being assaulted, and two, that you would counter-argue that my statements were just my own personal beliefs, and we'd be at a standstill. I've been here too many times in previous internet debates... Let's just go have a cold one and call it a day, shall we?
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Aug 29, 2009 5:28:06 GMT
I have to say Mezzaphor, in support of Casey's words, that such things as "His familiarity with possessing living things might mean that he occasionally forgets about the other things with eyes he can possess. " were so arbitrary and unsubstantiated that I saw no possible way to respond to them.
We have no reason to believe Reynardine had ever forgotten the extent of his capabilities. Is your whole idea *hinging* on this supposed forgetfulness of Reynardine? If so, that seems to make the whole theory shakey. And it's not the only guess you seem to be depending on. My own theory seems simpler to me all around, needs fewer guesses.
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Post by King Mir on Aug 29, 2009 9:40:49 GMT
Yeah, best kind of speculation there is. Sherlock Holmes was all about cigarrette-butts and such, but Hercule Poirot cared about the psychology of the suspects -- and his mysteries were all the more exciting for that. There is a motive for either scenario. Either Rey was desperate, and therefore sought to possess Annie, or he was not, and came up with an elaborate ploy. The hard evidence, the scene of the incident, gives no indication what so ever. It shows a desperate Reynardine trying to escape. So that must be what happened. Perhaps if there was some subtle clue in the scene that things were not as it seems, Tom is good with those, then I'd doubt. But there isn't. That's what it comes down to. Motive + evidence, not motive alone. That's not what I meant by hints. Yes, Tom does lead us to ask why would Rey possess Annie, but the scene itself is perfectly clear. He did do it. As for Reynardine noticing the toy, that is certainty foreshadowing Rey taking the toy, but it does not suggest that Rey would plan to take it.
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Post by King Mir on Aug 29, 2009 9:49:56 GMT
I guess it got missed so I'll say it again, louder. IF REY WANTED TO POSSESS ANNIE WHY DIDN'T HE DO IT ON THE ROOF OF THE DORM. OR THE DOLL FOR THAT MATTER. (I'll give you a hint: Because he wanted to set it up to look like he was DEAD so they would stop hunting him. And by making it look like he was going for Annie and failing, and then popping into the toy and INSTANTLY TRANSFORMING BACK INTO THE TOY FORM, he accomplished exactly that. It was only due to the demonic presence of Zimmy that he ever got outed from his self-described "PERFECT DISGUISE".) I see you've regained your debating vigor. The simpler explanation is that he did not think he could pull it off with Elgamore there. As for Zimmy, you are wrong there. On this page Rey says that he intended to curry favor with Antimony. This implies that he would ultimately reveal himself.
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mjh
Full Member
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Post by mjh on Aug 29, 2009 10:18:03 GMT
On this page Rey says that he intended to curry favor with Antimony. This implies that he would ultimately reveal himself. Quite probably. That’s why he didn’t really complain about his true identity being revealed at that point. He did complain only later, chiding Annie when she broke the news to Reynardines arch enemies, Eglamore and the Donlans ( www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=107).
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Post by todd on Aug 29, 2009 11:19:36 GMT
I've sometimes thought that Tom might have intended Reynardine, as depicted in Chapter Three, to be an analogue to a would-be child molester and his attempt to possess Annie as a metaphor for attempted rape.
It's possible that Tom hadn't thought out himself what Reynardine would have done (or planned to do) if he had succeeded in possessing Annie - that he was thinking primarily about the drama of the immediate story. It's an important scene in many respects. For one thing, it shows that Annie's fallible; she gets duped by Reynardine into believing him a misunderstood, persecuted monster (it helps that the chapter immediately before that one was about Basil and his mistreatment by Theseus, setting the reader up to expect again that the monster is the good guy and the heroic warrior coming after him the bad guy) and is saved, not by her own courage or ingenuity, but by Eglamore's intervention.
One question worth asking: if Reynardine had fizzled out into oblivion after failing to possess Annie, instead of taking over her plush wolf doll and becoming a figure sometimes comedic (secret tea parties with Kat's action figures), sometimes a loyal protector to Annie, would we be so likely to think that he hadn't really been planning to possess her?
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Aug 29, 2009 11:39:16 GMT
Well, obviously not. But how is that truly a relevant question?
Without knowing Reynardine's character, or Coyote's statements about his character, or that Reynardine is capable of possessing animate objects, we would obviously lack those clues that indicate Annie's possession to be an unlikely goal of his.
But now we do know those things. And so we must adjust our understanding accordingly.
Why?
The scene is perfectly clear in how Reynardine did NOT possess Annie. Beyond that we're both equally discussing causation -- you claim that the only reason Annie wasn't possessed is because Eglamore pushed her out of the way, my claim is that it's more consistent with characterization for Reynardine not to have attempted Annie's possession in the first place, and all of it to have been a ruse in order to take control of the toy.
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mjh
Full Member
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Post by mjh on Aug 29, 2009 11:52:28 GMT
One question worth asking: if Reynardine had fizzled out into oblivion after failing to possess Annie, instead of taking over her plush wolf doll and becoming a figure sometimes comedic (secret tea parties with Kat's action figures), sometimes a loyal protector to Annie, would we be so likely to think that he hadn't really been planning to possess her? Maybe we wouldn’t, but that is neither here nor there. If the story had been different, it had been different. We have to deal with story as it is (and slowly unfolds).
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Post by King Mir on Aug 29, 2009 12:05:34 GMT
Er, because that's not how I was using the word. I was talking about evidence of something unapparent going on, not about insinuation that Rey has reason to care for Annie. Desperation accounts for any atypical behavior on Reynardine's part. Given that I take the scene for what it shows.
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