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Post by bisected8 on Jun 20, 2009 10:32:39 GMT
I just thought. Maybe Surma's illness was caused by complications in birth? It would explain why Annie thought her father might resent her and why she fell ill when she was born...
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Post by todd on Jun 20, 2009 10:54:51 GMT
I'd wondered about that as well - that maybe a side effect of Annie's birth, thanks to her etheric abilities, was Surma becoming bedridden. There've been stories like that before of a hero or someone with remarkable abilities whose birth costs his or her mother her life because of that same remarkable nature. But for now, we can only speculate.
Annie and Smith would probably learn more about being mediums if Parley *did* drop out of class, given how often she interrupts Jones or otherwise causes disruptions.
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Post by bisected8 on Jun 20, 2009 11:30:08 GMT
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Post by ethelmercaptan on Jun 20, 2009 14:17:57 GMT
It could be that he assumes she's dead because said daughter is now at the school. Remember, that's apparently how Anja found out as well. She was weeping over Annie's "student transfer" notification, not an obituary or personal letter. The implication seems to be that, for whatever reason(s), if Surma hadn't died, Annie wouldn't have been sent to Gunnerkrigg. And that both Anja and Reynardine knew that.
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Post by Babble-jargon Bill on Jun 20, 2009 17:06:36 GMT
This all begs the question we have been asking for a while: why would Surma and Anthony cut all contacts from everyone they had ever known? I can't make heads or tails of it at the moment. It's also very sad, so there's that too.
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Post by bisected8 on Jun 20, 2009 17:37:56 GMT
Well Anthony was at the hospital anyway and Surma was unwell. Maybe they went to the hospital when Surma fell ill, she wasn't well enough to travel so he got (or already had) a job there to stay with her?
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mjh
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Post by mjh on Jun 20, 2009 18:12:10 GMT
This all begs the question we have been asking for a while: why would Surma and Anthony cut all contacts from everyone they had ever known? Surma had dumped James who was something like Donald’s and Anja’s best friend. Suppose the Carvers wouldn’t come to a party if Eglamore was invited too, and vice-versa? There’s lots of potential for awkward situations. Still there is no evidence that Anja and Donald didn’t accept Surma’s decision, and one would have supposed that Anja would have visited Surma at the hospital, yet Annie didn’t know her (hadn’t even heard of her actually). It remains a mystery.
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Post by Max on Jun 20, 2009 18:56:18 GMT
I believe that Surma left the court because of her illness. And for the record, Parley (who was only 14 or so at the time) knew Annie's mother as "Surma Stibnite", not Carver. Nowhere was it ever stated that Surma and Anthony got married. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, but there's no evidence either way. Edit: My point about Parley's age was that Parley would have been only 3 when Annie was born, and she wasn't born at the Court... therefore there is no possible way that Parley knew of Surma directly, as Surma left GC when Parley was a wee little child. Therefore, if Parley knew Surma as Surma Stibnite, it could only be because that's what people called Surma after she left. So people at the Court (Anja, Donald, James) knew Surma, knew where she was, knew that she had a child, and yet still Parley was told Surma's name was Surma Stibnite. That tells me that either Surma and Anthony were not married, or Surma chose not to take his last name... I have to acknowledge that possibility I suppose. See here:
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Post by Casey on Jun 20, 2009 19:41:20 GMT
Allright, then that still doesn't explain why it is that Parley refers to her as Surma Stibnite, and not Surma Carver, if she had been Surma Carver since Parley was a baby at least, if not longer.
P.S. mjh - Unless Max is going to pull out another miracle quote, we don't know that Surma dumped James. For all we know, Surma was lonely and vulnerable while James was off on his training, and had a moment of weakness with Anthony, and got pregnant, and therefore decided she must marry him to be proper.
Though I suppose that still counts as a dumping, I have this suspicion that Surma still loved James till the day she died. I just don't see Eglamore as the kind of guy who would hold on to a love that died. A love that could never be, perhaps, but not one that ran its course and died.
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Post by TBeholder on Jun 20, 2009 20:25:43 GMT
It could be that he assumes she's dead because said daughter is now at the school. Remember, that's apparently how Anja found out as well. She was weeping over Annie's "student transfer" notification, not an obituary or personal letter. The implication seems to be that, for whatever reason(s), if Surma hadn't died, Annie wouldn't have been sent to Gunnerkrigg. And that both Anja and Reynardine knew that. The simple variant is that they has reasons to think little Annie just won't leave her mother or Surma won't send her there for some more years. Based on her own statement, for example. And they knew Surma doesn't return, so... And if they dropped enough words in Reynardine's presence he could understand what's going on: even if he lost once, he's still big old Trickster. Or even simpler: Surma didn't sent them a letter before Annie's "transfer", therefore she cannot, and it's not her health because Annie doesn't stays with her. Of course, with Tom there's always some chance of a more interesting twist. There could be some sort of prophecy, but that isn't twisty enough.
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Post by Casey on Jun 20, 2009 20:31:57 GMT
I think Annie saying in Ch 2 that she and her mother "couldn't bear to be apart" is foreshadowing. To what, I'm not sure. But raising a child alone in a hospital is a very difficult thing to imagine, and that makes me feel more strongly that, for some reason, Surma and Annie literally -couldn't- be apart, and therefore seeing Annie at the Court could only mean that the thing tethering her to the hospital (her mother) is gone. That would explain Rey's reaction to seeing Annie, and Anja's reaction to the transfer notice. Literally, "Annie is here, therefore Surma must be dead."
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Post by Max on Jun 20, 2009 20:36:39 GMT
Allright, then that still doesn't explain why it is that Parley refers to her as Surma Stibnite, and not Surma Carver, if she had been Surma Carver since Parley was a baby at least, if not longer. My theory is that Surma left the Court, and therefore her role as medium, when she married Anthony. Thus the last medium of the court would have been known as Surma Stibnite, since she never performed her medium duties under the name Carver. Since she apparently cut off contact with everyone, the only people who knew her as Surma Carver would have been Good Hope staff, legal entities, etc.
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Post by Casey on Jun 20, 2009 20:46:08 GMT
But she didn't cut off contact with everyone, because her friends, who are also Court staff, knew where she was and knew about her daughter, and knew about whatever the situation was to the point that they (Anja) knew when she saw Annie's transfer papers that Surma was dead. And Rey too, which is even stranger.
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Post by Casey on Jun 20, 2009 20:49:20 GMT
To be more specific, I agree with you that Surma was always Surma Stibnite while she was employed at the Court. But why would everyone still refer to her as Surma Stibnite 14 years after she became Surma Carver if we can establish that they did indeed know she got married, had a kid, and then lived in the hospital with that kid?
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mjh
Full Member
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Post by mjh on Jun 20, 2009 21:36:36 GMT
To be more specific, I agree with you that Surma was always Surma Stibnite while she was employed at the Court. But why would everyone still refer to her as Surma Stibnite 14 years after she became Surma Carver if we can establish that they did indeed know she got married, had a kid, and then lived in the hospital with that kid? It is really not that unusual. Surma seems to have been quite the legend at the Court, and even if she eventually left GC, got married, and changed her name, she would naturally continue to be famous as Surma Stibnite. You would have to get used to the new name, but if you never meet and never hear from that person again, the changed name wouldn’t stick. It’s like with the girls I know from school – I am quite aware that they have married and their names have changed, but when I think of them, it is still their maiden name that comes to mind.
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Post by Max on Jun 20, 2009 22:46:47 GMT
Think of Amy Lee and J. K. Rowling, who changed their last names upon marriage, but are still known by their more famous names.
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Post by bisected8 on Jun 20, 2009 22:54:22 GMT
But she didn't cut off contact with everyone, because her friends, who are also Court staff, knew where she was and knew about her daughter, and knew about whatever the situation was to the point that they (Anja) knew when she saw Annie's transfer papers that Surma was dead. And Rey too, which is even stranger. We don't know if they knew. They would certainly know by now (since Antimony told Kate's parents and Eglamore at least), but there's nothing to suggest they had any idea where the Carvers went after leaving GC. All we really know is the fact that Antimony was now at the court told them that Surma was dead.
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Post by Casey on Jun 21, 2009 4:59:43 GMT
But she didn't cut off contact with everyone, because her friends, who are also Court staff, knew where she was and knew about her daughter, and knew about whatever the situation was to the point that they (Anja) knew when she saw Annie's transfer papers that Surma was dead. And Rey too, which is even stranger. We don't know if they knew. They would certainly know by now (since Antimony told Kate's parents and Eglamore at least), but there's nothing to suggest they had any idea where the Carvers went after leaving GC. All we really know is the fact that Antimony was now at the court told them that Surma was dead. Oho, I heartily disagree good sir, for the reasons that have already been stated here: Anja knew, just from seeing that a student named Antimony Carver was coming to the school, that Surma was dead. And Reynardine knew, just from seeing Annie's necklace, that she was Surma's daughter, and that Surma was dead. now certainly he would recognize the necklace as being Surma's, but he would have no reason to conclude that Surma was DEAD just because her daughter was wearing it, so he must have known something else... something that perhaps at this point Antimony herself doesn't even know. Also, mjh and Max... I think you're putting a little too much into this "Surma was a celebrity on the order of Amy Lee and JK Rowling" thing. She was an employee of the court. She left the court and got married, and changed her name. Her friends knew that she married Mr. Carver, and knew that she had had a child (How else would they know that "Carver is the girl's father"?) so they obviously stayed in contact to some degree. Plus you know we have to look at the fact that on one hand, Parley knew Antimony's mother as "Surma Stibnite" for reasons that still haven't been explained, but yet, she knew that Antimony CARVER was Surma's daughter. So there's still a certain mystery as to why there's a discrepancy there. P.S. This argument is, you must admit, very academic and pointless. I'm happy to continue it as long as we all acknowledge that we're discussing pretty much meaningless esoterica for no more reason than that we can because we like the comic and we're bored.
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Post by popo on Jun 21, 2009 6:53:34 GMT
I don't think anyone was taking this very seriously
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Post by Casey on Jun 21, 2009 7:31:45 GMT
OK good, just making sure. I was more concerned that anyone thought that I was taking it seriously, and I wanted to assure that I'm not. I like a good discussion for its own sake.
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Post by Tom Siddell on Jun 21, 2009 10:53:17 GMT
When Smitty and Parley started their medium classes Jones informed them that the previous medium was a woman called Surma Stibnite. She left and got married and her daughter, Antimony Carver is now in the school.
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Post by todd on Jun 21, 2009 11:04:19 GMT
So does that mean that Smith and Parley began their medium classes after Annie arrived at Gunnerkrigg?
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Post by penguinfactory on Jun 21, 2009 13:50:54 GMT
I still think this is one of the biggest mysteries in the story so far. There's clearly something we don't know about in relation to Annie and/or her birth.
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Post by Ulysses on Jun 21, 2009 13:57:00 GMT
So does that mean that Smith and Parley began their medium classes after Annie arrived at Gunnerkrigg? I suspect they started before she arrived, if only the year before. Jones mentions that the Court has only recently begun looking for a new medium, plus Parley and Andrew had already been in medium training for an unspecified amount of time by the end of Antimony's first year ( a la the meeting with Coyote and Ysengrin). They could potentially have started medium training in their second year, like Annie, which would mean Parley is now in her 4th year of training (she's in year 11 now) and Smitty's in his 3rd (now in year 10), although I get the feeling they started at the same time. Going on the proviso that medium training starts in second year and that Parley and Smitty started training at the same time, the earlist they could have started training was the year before Annie arrived at the Court. That would mean they are in their 3rd year of training. I should note that almost all of that is conjecture.
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Post by Casey on Jun 21, 2009 16:04:56 GMT
I think it's interesting that the Court didn't have a medium or a medium in training, then, for something like 10-12 years. I seem to remember it being said somewhere that that was simply because they didn't need one. And the fact that there's now three in training could be taken to mean that the Court takes the current business with the Forest very seriously.
I wonder when it was that Reynardine came to the Court, in relation to when Surma left? She was the reason that he came... is it possible that he is the reason she left? Hmmm.
We know that Anja Donny and James had been working to extract Reynardine from Sivo for five years since before the beginning of the comic. Presumably Sivo was Eglamore's partner and mount before that. Reynardine had talked about the friends he had made at the Court... maybe that was before he possessed a boy to woo Surma? We know that she visited him in the Forest in his fox form... perhaps back then the Forest wasn't seen as such an enemy, and he was allowed to come to the Court as himself--Renard? (Using "Renard" in the sense that Tom explained that that's what he was known as before he started jumping bodies.) That might explain why Jones calls him Renard... simply because she knew hm as such when he visited the Court before he gained the ability to jump bodies...
Then of course there's the question of why Jones is qualified to train mediums, and has recently demonstrated very fine skills in tact and dipmlomacy (current chapter) but she herself was never employed as a medium? I suppose that implies that a medium must have some sort of etheric ability, which Jones does not (as far as we know, and based on what Anja said in Blinking). If it's the case that a medium must have etheric abilities, then the Court is really investing a lot in Parley on the off chance that she manifests some abilities.
There is always so much to ponder!
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Post by bisected8 on Jun 21, 2009 19:10:28 GMT
Maybe Jones meets the standard for a medium, but was never employed as one officially since the court didn't need one and now that they do they do they're having her train replacements to take the role officially (after all she was apparently a similar age to someone who retired years earlier, they may as well have her get some replacements ready instead of doing the job herself).
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Post by Casey on Jun 21, 2009 20:41:25 GMT
I had a similar thought actually, but then I couldn't figure out why, when they needed it most (Ch 14) Jones never said a word. It seemed to me that she was the most qualified person to speak as a medium or at least as a mediator, and it seemed too important a meeting to use as just a training exercise for Parley and Smitty. And that makes me wonder if there isn't some other reason Jones did not mediate.
My first thought on that is that perhaps whatever Jones's gifts are, she is better as an advisor and right-hand man to the Headmaster, which is what she appeared to be doing. Hmm, hard to say, very intriguing, that Jones.
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Post by bisected8 on Jun 21, 2009 22:32:27 GMT
Then again, based on what Jones said, the headmaster probably didn't think the meeting was important, so maybe he had no problem with making it a training exercise? Or maybe Jones decided a certain cellulose coated canine (woo, I alliterated ;D) intended to drop those seeds all along, thus there wasn't really any real diplomatic issues what-so-ever?
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Post by Babble-jargon Bill on Jun 22, 2009 3:59:34 GMT
I have to wonder if, based on the headmasters comments to Jones during chapter 14, if she dealt with morphing mythical creatures not unlike Ysengrin. Or ones that were seeded like Robot was. Maybe a group of people devoted to studying the animals of Gillitie Wood? That once had an incident with two canines that ate some seeds?
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Post by Max on Jun 22, 2009 5:24:33 GMT
Maybe Jones has a history that prevents her from serving as a neutral medium, like some past incident that would make the forest unwilling to negotiate with her.
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