mjh
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Posts: 179
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Post by mjh on Apr 29, 2009 19:47:59 GMT
You'll remember that Kat was analyzing the bots in the basement, saying how none of them had actuators that she could figure out how they worked. To her, they were all just basically mannequins because for all she knew they wouldn't be able to operate, by any science she was aware of. That’s the point: Kat knows how the Court robots operate, but Diego’s models are so different that Kat was convinced they wouldn’t work at all (“They’re all useless! There’s no drive system! No kinetic alternator! There isn’t even a power source!”). Diego’s robots don’t use Court technology as we know it, but something else entirely. The Court robots were designed to copy those original designs, but only superficially; their technology is different.
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Post by Rasselas on Apr 29, 2009 20:00:27 GMT
To add to Casey's argumentation, bismuth symbol. Signifies union between scientific and etheric, the principle upon which the Court was made. If I am correct.
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Post by drbubbles on Apr 29, 2009 20:15:51 GMT
Well, here are my thoughts on that. You'll remember that Kat was analyzing the bots in the basement, saying how none of them had actuators that she could figure out how they worked. To her, they were all just basically mannequins because for all she knew they wouldn't be able to operate, by any science she was aware of. Additionally, she isn't accustomed to tinkering with robots... in fact the reason Anja lent her the key to the warehouse was because Kat wanted to build a robot... for the first time. All of the robots in the court are Diego's robots, just "maintained" over time by themselves. This adds up to the fact that all of the court's robots are made with etheric technology. Kat's statement about their actuators doesn't leave any other possibility. Even Robot, whom Annie put together, was just a matter of plugging in already-built parts. He is in fact one of Diego's Seraph models (Seraph 13 to be exact.) We know that Kat had never *built* a robot, but it doesn't follow that she'd never *tinkered* with one. From #406 we *know* that Kat knows something about the existing Court robots (we don't know how much, only that it's a non-null quantity; but ## 420 and 435 imply she knows a fair bit). We also don't know that all of the robots presently in the Court were actually built by Diego, only that existing models are derived from ones he did (but see below). Even supposing we did know that the existing models were built by Diego, we don't know that he never developed a non-etheric power system. Now, given that Shadow 3 was able somehow to take control of Robot's actuators in the Bridge Incident (#225), it seems clear that the existing Court robots can be *controlled* by etheric means. But we don't know that that's necessary to their routine operation. I'm not saying you're wrong. I just don't think there's enough evidence. As for the Bismuth symbol, Tom has also said that it can just mean that something was built in/by the Court. If that meant that everything of Court manufacture must have an etheric operational component, I would think Kat would have had a harder time hacking the motion sensors than she did. (My inner skeptic waffles on whether it'll admit Diego built any robots at all. Strictly speaking there's no direct evidence that he did, but dang, it's really strongly implied.)
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Post by Mezzaphor on Apr 29, 2009 20:59:09 GMT
I don't remember if this has been brought up before, but do you suppose there's a connection between this dog-tree incident and whatever matters that Anthony had to see to?
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Post by Casey on Apr 29, 2009 21:23:28 GMT
Well I could be wrong, I'll be the first to admit that.
I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the Questions to Tom it was determined that all court robots derive from the original models in the basement.
If that statement proves to be true, and we already know that those robots in the basement work in a manner that Kat couldn't comprehend, AND we also know that the current Court robots are made by other robots (As explained by Robot), then, assuming I can find supporting evidence for the first statement, then I think logically it would then follow that all Court robots are run with etheric foundations.
It may be that Kat knows that the current bots running around have "ultra high torque actuators in their joints" (#406) but all of the robots' current bodies are the result of the robots repairing themselves... including fabricating new parts and bodies when necessary... Robot said so, I don't have the page number. The etheric part of their makeup is in their CPU, however (#222) and no new CPUs are being made... what you've got is Diego's original robot CPUs that have etheric sources, who have cobbled their own bodies over time, being forced to change from completely etheric actuators (the first-generation models in the basement) to developing their own mechanical actuators, but still maintaining their etheric core in their unchanged CPUs.
I'll let you know when I have more evidence. Again I could be wrong, but I think things end up adding together the way I proposed.
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Post by Casey on Apr 29, 2009 22:14:30 GMT
Yay for finding the quote that I was referring to.
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mjh
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Posts: 179
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Post by mjh on Apr 29, 2009 23:00:34 GMT
I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the Questions to Tom it was determined that all court robots derive from the original models in the basement. Sure, but you are reading too much into that. After robot had explained ( www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=435) that the Court robots have always maintained themselves, Kat had been musing: “I guess when Diego died you couldn’t make more of yourselves, so you changed to simpler designs.” It is obvious that the robots in Kat’s time, while looking quite similar to Diego’s, are differently designed. Anja had made a similar comment ( www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=438): “Is strange. Such similar designs to certain Court robots, but the technology is very different.” There is nothing to suggest that just while Diego’s robots may be based on etheric technolgy (and even that isn’t certain), today’s Court robots are, too. Quite the opposite really, with both Kat and Anja having pointed out how vastly different the underlying technologies are.
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mjh
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Posts: 179
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Post by mjh on Apr 29, 2009 23:04:45 GMT
I don't remember if this has been brought up before, but do you suppose there's a connection between this dog-tree incident and whatever matters that Anthony had to see to? So far there is nothing to suggest a connection, other than that any two seemingly unrelated events within this comic might turn out to be connected.
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Post by clementine on Apr 29, 2009 23:16:58 GMT
I've had a sneaking suspicion about that since Dogtree Puppetdude made his appearance. Logically, it's probably just WildSpec, but still...
Anja and Donald's descriptions together remind me of a robot. Maybe it's a Forestbot. Hm, would the forest even have an equivalent to robots?
If it is a drone and doesn't think for itself, I wonder if it can still feel pain? If it can, the Court disturbs me with its cruelty in panel 3.
The purple beam behind Anja inexplicably reminds me of a rope, like there's some kind of etheric tether between the forest and Bonsaidog that Anja can sense. (That would be pretty awesome.)
And lastly, HOLY COYOTE GUYS THERE'S A LEAF MONSTER BEHIND YOU RUN!
This page is just full of things to comment on!
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Dentrala
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"I absolutely did not expect thiiiissss!!"
Posts: 156
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Post by Dentrala on Apr 30, 2009 0:32:47 GMT
Agreed, good page, good page.
It's strange though, I'm so used to the sepia tint now, I went back to look at some of the older comics that people were linking as citation, and was shocked by the amount of color and vibrancy. It'll be weird seeing colorful updates again, or seeing red hair being... red.
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Post by drbubbles on Apr 30, 2009 14:55:14 GMT
I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the Questions to Tom it was determined that all court robots derive from the original models in the basement. All modern aircraft derive from the Wright Flyer, too; but their technology is very different. Being "derived from" is not the same as being "made by". Likewise, we do not know that because that is not what Robot said: "maintained" is not the same as "made". It was Kat who hypothesized (indirectly) that the robots themselves "changed to" the simpler models of the existing Court robots. We don't know this, either: I agree with you in thinking that that extra thing on the CPU is likely to be important in the etheric powering of the S1 robot in Robot Arena; but at present that is merely a guess, and in any case we have no idea *how* it would be involved in the etheric powering of the S1. Plus, Kat called it an *extra* thing, which suggests to me that it is not ordinarily present. I do not know how many robot CPUs Kat has seen, however much tinkering she has done; maybe Robot's is the first, and maybe Robot's is representative. But there is no evidence that that is so. We also know that there was something in the S1 important to its performance that was *not* part of Robot's CPU (#434). Do you have a reference for this? So: More or less agreed. Depends what you mean by "cobbled" "maintained," OK; "made," I'm not convinced. Agreed that *somebody* was, but I don't think we know enough to say who. I just don't know of any evidence to support this. The two quotes that mjh identified (Kat's in #435 and Anja's in #438) do seem pretty important to me. I find it particularly interesting that Anja, whom we know know to be especially sensitive to etheric...stuff, and who built a combination materialist/etheric computer, was nevertheless completely flummoxed by the bots in Robot Arena. Kat, on the other hand, while having a pragmatic attitude towards things that use etheric technologies (e.g. #522), doesn't understand them or try to make use of etheric technologies herself. That being the case, her confidence that she knows enough about the technology and "simpler designs" of the existing Court robots to attempt to build Robot a new body suggests to me that existing Court robot technology cannot depend upon etheric technology. If it did, I would have expected that Kat would either be more interested in it, or have doubts about her ability to build Robot a new body. I suspect that Robot's CPU is a special case. It only activated the S1 chassis in Robot Arena. I suspect it has a history of unacceptable robot behavior, on the grounds that I don't think it a coïncidence that it was Robot who was disassembled and placed in a storage closet containing no spare robot parts. I think the extra piece on the CPU is a part of the explanation for all of this, and I think Kat's reaction to the extra piece means it's nonstandard. If I am right about Robot's CPU being a special case, then we can't logically extrapolate from Robot to the rest of the existing Court robots, or even to the rest of the existing S-series robots. ETA: Also, the S1 chassis powered up immediately when Robot's CPU was plugged in. In contrast, Antimony had to turn Robot on herself (#9), and etheric-skeptic Donald's probably-non-etheric disruptor successfully, if temporarily, disabled the stop-bots (#552). And one last thing and then I'll shut up. Given what happened in Robot Arena, it seems to me that it was a one-time-only program (unless there are more hulk-bots waiting their turn in some shadowy recess, or hulk-bot is more easily repaired than it looks like). That would lead to a whole 'nother set of questions and possibilities about why Diego set up the Robot Arena performance and what, if anything, he hoped would come of it. If this is so then again it seems more than just a coïncidence that Robot's CPU with its extra thing would be the one that began the performance. So I wonder if literary considerations of the story Tom is telling impose certain constraints on the technological arrangements of the world he's created.
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Post by kurtmanjp on Apr 30, 2009 17:00:20 GMT
I have a feeling this flashback is gonna lead to how Surma met Coyote.
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Post by Casey on Apr 30, 2009 17:02:15 GMT
I wasn't going to get into this conversation anymore, but since when was Donald an etheric-skeptic, considering he helped build, and is a sub-user on, a supercomputer that was reverse engineered from etheric technology?
Anyway this whole line of thinking has spun way far off the original point, and I was content to let this tangent run for a while, but none of all these posts (including my own) refute or even address my original point which is that the Court seems to be exhibiting some sinister behavior in capturing etheric creatures and subjugating their ethereal quality for their own purposes. If you don't buy the argument about the robots, then take the agrument about the Environment Room and how, instead of destroying Robot's Seed-arm from Ysengrin which is potentially a very dangerous thing (considering Ysengrin dropped similar seeds during his visit), they chose to take it and plant it in the Environment Room for what we can only presume is for reasons of wanting to glean/deduce/steal some usefulness from it.
I still think I'm right about the robots--people have made arguments that there might be other, non-exclusive possibilities, but haven't given any evidence that actually refutes the possibility I mentioned--but since the conversation has devolved into paragraphs-long arguments that I could, if I were so inclined, make pointed counterarguments, but I don't want to, because the whole conversation has drifted from the actual point long ago, I'm instead going to redouble the original argument by making another example that hopefully you all won't find quite as contentious.
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Post by drbubbles on Apr 30, 2009 18:57:39 GMT
I'm sorry you feel that way. I enjoy debating, and I try not to conflate the posts with the person. I hadn't thought this discussion had gone anywhere near contentiousness.
The main thing I seek from the forum is a better understanding of the story. I have suspicions and hunches as much as anyone, but I am also very skeptical about what I think I may know in a story (I can't think of a single Harry Potter expectation I developed that I was right about). I find the kind of discussion we have engaged in has been helpful for clarifying what I think I know about a story. I have altered some of my interpretations of some of the comics as a result of reading & responding to your posts. Ideas are developed from evidence, and it's the evidence that I find most interesting and useful to discuss. Perhaps unfortunately that does make for, as you put it, "paragraphs-long arguments [and] pointed counterarguments." I happen to like that because it makes me think very carefully about what I think I know. Your idea about the robots may very well be correct; if I am not convinced, it is because of the limitations of the evidence and not any flaw in your reasoning. I know very well that I can be wrong about what I think I see in the comic (just look at the newest Questions to Tom thread).
Sometimes it happens that "tangents" interest me more than "original points." I don't think I have something interesting or worthwhile to say about every idea that comes up. But I don't think an idea is unworthy of extensive discussion just because it's tangential to another, either.
(And perhaps "etheric-skeptic" was the wrong word to use in describing Donald. What I was thinking of was the the discomfort with etheric displays that he seemed to exhibit as a youth, as from ##542, 544, 545, and 554.)
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Post by Casey on Apr 30, 2009 19:23:19 GMT
No no, I was saying that I was feeling that some of you were feeling that -I-, or at least the general run of the discussion, was becoming contentious, and I would prefer to avoid that especially since it had run so far afield from my original statement.
I would go on to say that my own involvement in internet debates in the past has usually been with people who are not as accepting of the "contentious" nature of debate as you seem to be, and it's refreshing to hear that someone besides myself is able to separate the contentiousness of the debate from the contentiousness (or not) of the people involved. You and I may be exceptions to the rule, in that regard... but at least now we've gained the knowledge that we can debate about points, and analyze our own knowledge about the subject at hand, and still remain understanding and respectful of the other person. I welcome that because I so often encounter the "other" kind of debate, that I guess I rein myself in for fear of having someone take it too far. These days I tend to rather curb the discussion before anyone gets in a tiff, and perhaps in doing so I'm curbing discussion that still has valid life in it.
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Post by ashadocat on Apr 30, 2009 19:48:44 GMT
"I wasn't going to get into this conversation anymore, but since when was Donald an etheric-skeptic, considering he helped build, and is a sub-user on, a supercomputer that was reverse engineered from etheric technology? "
keep in mind that this is the past, there's still a lot of character development to happen. he probably gradually accepts aetherial as he falls in love.
also this forum uses my cystom backround colour for boxes but not my font colour. black text on a balck backround is bad.
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Post by todd on Apr 30, 2009 22:25:15 GMT
I think that the Court probably has been doing some unscrupulous things to the inhabitants of the Wood (apart from Coyote's testimony, it would be almost necessary if the conflict between the Court and the Wood is to be portrayed as a case of "the wrongs have been on both sides" - and the tone of the webcomic suggests that Tom's going for that rather than putting all the blame on Ysengrin and other fanatical inhabitants of the Wood), but I doubt that Shadow2 was one of its victims. He seemed to be more inadvertently stranded there rather than an escapee from a lab (though if he was, perhaps Annie did show good judgment in keeping him secret from the grown-ups).
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Post by Max on Apr 30, 2009 23:56:39 GMT
I don't remember if this has been brought up before, but do you suppose there's a connection between this dog-tree incident and whatever matters that Anthony had to see to? Somehow I doubt it. As Jones stated, Anthony had little interest in etheric sciences, so it seems unlikely that he would even be studying this creature.
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Post by Mezzaphor on May 1, 2009 5:40:51 GMT
I don't remember if this has been brought up before, but do you suppose there's a connection between this dog-tree incident and whatever matters that Anthony had to see to? Somehow I doubt it. As Jones stated, Anthony had little interest in etheric sciences, so it seems unlikely that he would even be studying this creature. Good point. However, I've long been skeptical of everything that Jones said in that little monologue, considering that she admitted immediately afterwards that she was trying to provoke a reaction. (Yay, rationalizing is fun!)
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