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Post by bicarbonat on Nov 22, 2019 8:23:18 GMT
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ST13R
Full Member
Quiet little mouse
Posts: 171
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Post by ST13R on Nov 22, 2019 8:26:34 GMT
Inside himself, ofcourse, is Coyote. Which is everything he needs.
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Post by csj on Nov 22, 2019 8:29:28 GMT
Only just begun to grammar.
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Post by madjack on Nov 22, 2019 8:45:06 GMT
Bring on the plot-significant temper tantrum, Tom.
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Post by migrantworker on Nov 22, 2019 9:08:15 GMT
Are Annies... comforting Loup? If he really wants to get the lake water, the Ysengrin part of him may still have control over trees. Might come handy when you need to move a tree out of the way. But this raises some questions of its own: Would Loup split Ysengrin out of himself? Impulsive as he is, I guess it's a definite possibility. What would Loup consisting entirely of Coyote be like? Would that count as Loup 'dying'? Would the Court allow Ysengrin to dig through its grounds? At what price? Would they try to capture him, like they did Renard? How much do the Court's powers that be know about the causes of Loup's attack? We saw both Anthony and Jones deciding to withhold the details from them. If they have to be revealed, what consequences would that imply for Annie and the gang? |
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Post by madjack on Nov 22, 2019 10:18:31 GMT
I think we're going to see his control over the trees again shortly, but he wont open the way up.
Wildspec: Loup will reject Coyote's plan for him and alter the tree to close off any possible access to the lake water.
Except he forgot he created a whole other alternate dimension, replete with its own copy of said lake water...
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Post by todd on Nov 22, 2019 12:37:22 GMT
Or maybe the "everything you need inside yourself" part will turn out to apply as much to Annie as to Loup - meaning that the Annies will find a way to solve the problem of how to get to the lake water without outside assistance after all.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 22, 2019 13:17:00 GMT
The people who always tell the truth are the best liars.
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Nov 22, 2019 13:18:15 GMT
Eeerm guys... Have you noticed the white symbol on Loup's head changed? It used to be more diamond shaped, now it's a crescent moon... Before:  Now:  The change seems to have happened when Coyote returned the memory to Loup. I'm sorry if I missed someone else already saying this in a previous post, it just all of a sudden dawned on me, and I wonder if it will mean something. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 22, 2019 13:27:48 GMT
Wildspec: I think that Coyote meant that "Loup" (who is pretty much Ysengrin with Coyote's power and a superficial look and personality makeover) could, if he was capable of honestly evaluating himself and his situation, use Coyote's power to cut and shape himself into a being who could control Coyote's power indefinitely without being Coyote. Ys is going to do either nothing or the opposite of that.
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Post by bicarbonat on Nov 22, 2019 14:19:21 GMT
Eeerm guys... Have you noticed the white symbol on Loup's head changed? It used to be more diamond shaped, now it's a crescent moon... Before: Now: The change seems to have happened when Coyote returned the memory to Loup. I'm sorry if I missed someone else already saying this in a previous post, it just all of a sudden dawned on me, and I wonder if it will mean something. It's like a little chunk is missing, which is pretty odd since he was ostensibly given something back. If that symbol keeps getting smaller, I'm going to start looking at it like a battery life indicator. |
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Post by DonDueed on Nov 22, 2019 15:17:29 GMT
Loup -- what a whiner! You of all people should know that life is not always fair.
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Post by DonDueed on Nov 22, 2019 15:25:02 GMT
The change seems to have happened when Coyote returned the memory to Loup. I'm sorry if I missed someone else already saying this in a previous post, it just all of a sudden dawned on me, and I wonder if it will mean something. It has been noted before, at least in the page comments if not here in the forum.
And you're right about the timing -- at first I thought it was when Coyote came bursting out of Loup's head in that spot, but the diamond is still there after that, until the memory is returned. Strange. It must mean something... maybe symbolic that the addition of something can result in a diminishing rather than an enhancement?
It occurs to me that we've seen something similar before -- namely when Rey's forehead symbol changed when he became a familiar. But that was an addition to the mark rather than the opposite.
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Nov 22, 2019 15:56:11 GMT
The change seems to have happened when Coyote returned the memory to Loup. I'm sorry if I missed someone else already saying this in a previous post, it just all of a sudden dawned on me, and I wonder if it will mean something. It has been noted before, at least in the page comments if not here in the forum.
And you're right about the timing -- at first I thought it was when Coyote came bursting out of Loup's head in that spot, but the diamond is still there after that, until the memory is returned. Strange. It must mean something... maybe symbolic that the addition of something can result in a diminishing rather than an enhancement?
It occurs to me that we've seen something similar before -- namely when Rey's forehead symbol changed when he became a familiar. But that was an addition to the mark rather than the opposite.
Yes! Exactly, I was also reminded of Rey's mark. I don't think it is diminishing, I think it's "rendering" and coming more into focus the more memories Loup gets back. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 22, 2019 16:04:52 GMT
Also: On the previous page Coyote's mini-me appears to recede into the symbol. Not sure what the lozenge symbol means (too many possibilities) but my best guess at what it means now is lunar descent/descending, or the spirit gate or a crucible under lunar influence. |
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Post by Gotolei on Nov 22, 2019 16:09:17 GMT
About the forehead mark, it does seem to be linked to memories in a certain way: Back in Memories of the Worthless, it was the focal point for showing when proto-Loup first got most of the memories back.Perhaps more interestingly though, it reminds me about a certain similarly-shaped detail in the most recent treatise: I don't see it, certainly not when looking at it this way:  Kinda makes me wonder where the mark might be disappearing to, if it isn't simply disappearing entirely. |
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 22, 2019 16:23:56 GMT
Are Annies... comforting Loup? I think they are more concerned about the Forest. If Loup does not take care of it, it might slowly die or be forever frozen in time.
The change seems to have happened when Coyote returned the memory to Loup. I'm sorry if I missed someone else already saying this in a previous post, it just all of a sudden dawned on me, and I wonder if it will mean something. And you're right about the timing -- at first I thought it was when Coyote came bursting out of Loup's head in that spot, but the diamond is still there after that, until the memory is returned. Strange. It must mean something... maybe symbolic that the addition of something can result in a diminishing rather than an enhancement? Q: If you add to it, it becomes smaller. If you take away from it, it becomes bigger. What is that? A: A hole.
Very fitting, considering many readers consider Loup to be quite the a-hole.
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Jota
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by Jota on Nov 22, 2019 16:43:24 GMT
"There is nothing that can kill me, except for myself! Possibly including pieces of myself that were given away to someone else before I became myself, and which I don't even realize exist!"
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Post by Gemini Jim on Nov 22, 2019 17:06:06 GMT
Are Annies... comforting Loup? If he really wants to get the lake water, the Ysengrin part of him may still have control over trees. Might come handy when you need to move a tree out of the way. But this raises some questions of its own: Would Loup split Ysengrin out of himself? Impulsive as he is, I guess it's a definite possibility. What would Loup consisting entirely of Coyote be like? Would that count as Loup 'dying'? Would the Court allow Ysengrin to dig through its grounds? At what price? Would they try to capture him, like they did Renard? A Loup consisting entirely of Coyote would be... just Coyote, would it not? That could even be part of Coyote's plan, to needle/ insult/ pester/ nudge Loup to the point where he wants to cut the Ysengrin part of himself out of himself. I think Loup here seems mentally very Ysengrin-ish. A whiny Ysengrin, but Ysengrin. Ysengrin has visited the court before. Admittedly, that was before all of this high alert, security code ("the Red Zone is for immediate loading and unloading of plotlines") stuff. |
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Post by Elysium on Nov 22, 2019 18:18:05 GMT
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Post by mturtle7 on Nov 22, 2019 19:42:07 GMT
I was always kind of frustrated by that one, " Coyote is no liar" quote by Jones years ago. People would just keep on referencing it, and always start exceedingly pointless arguments about what does or does not technically constitute a "lie", and whether or not Coyote has ever broken these arbitrary rules. As Loup points out, it's kind of naive to think that Coyote "never lies", because he's a skilled enough trickster to hide & misrepresent the truth regardless of whether he lies or not.
Unlike Loup though, I think Coyote was actually being relatively honest in that memory, since he also provided a pretty reasonable explanation for the real reason Loup can't keep the Forest together. Loup thinks that he can solve all of Ysengrin's old problems by just adding every single part of Coyote onto himself, but the truth is, he already DID that. The Coyote that Ysengrin devoured in Chapter 66 WAS the real, essential Lord Coyote taht controlled the Forest, so if anything about Coyote could have just "fixed" Ysengrin, that would have done it. But obviously, the conglomerate entity known as Loup still has problems, so the fact that Loup is still chasing after some weird, idealized Coyote fragment of himself is just even more proof of how stubborn and pig-headed Loup is. And those are two qualities that should prevent him from using Coyote's chaos branches far more than any kind of supposed "weakness" in him. |
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Post by Runningflame on Nov 22, 2019 21:47:02 GMT
Hey, another thing--I always saw the little circles around it as buttons, which makes no sense now that I look at it because they don't even line up side-to-side. What if they are/represent memories? |
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Post by todd on Nov 23, 2019 0:29:57 GMT
I think that Coyote's being neither a liar nor telling the truth is something similar to the Witches in "Macbeth". They technically tell the truth to Macbeth, but always in a slanted sort of way to mislead him. Especially when they tell him he need not fear anyone "born of woman" - but don't bring up that that doesn't include someone born from Caesaran section, or that he's safe as long as Birnam Wood doesn't march on Dunsinane, but say nothing about how that includes a camouflage operation.
Coyote does the same thing, I believe - he technically tells the truth, but in an equivocating manner - which is more dangerous than an outright lie.
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Post by migrantworker on Nov 23, 2019 11:16:43 GMT
Are Annies... comforting Loup? I think they are more concerned about the Forest. If Loup does not take care of it, it might slowly die or be forever frozen in time. That's how I interpret it as well. But look what they did not do. They did not take a cheap shot at Loup; they did not join Coyote in teasing him; they show no sign of running away despite knowing how unpredictable Loup can be, especially now that he has been humiliated in front of them. No, they took the one action which could diffuse the situation. I for one am proud of them. |
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Post by migrantworker on Nov 23, 2019 12:50:59 GMT
Are Annies... comforting Loup? If he really wants to get the lake water, the Ysengrin part of him may still have control over trees. Might come handy when you need to move a tree out of the way. But this raises some questions of its own: Would Loup split Ysengrin out of himself? Impulsive as he is, I guess it's a definite possibility. What would Loup consisting entirely of Coyote be like? Would that count as Loup 'dying'? Would the Court allow Ysengrin to dig through its grounds? At what price? Would they try to capture him, like they did Renard? A Loup consisting entirely of Coyote would be... just Coyote, would it not? That could even be part of Coyote's plan, to needle/ insult/ pester/ nudge Loup to the point where he wants to cut the Ysengrin part of himself out of himself. I think Loup here seems mentally very Ysengrin-ish. A whiny Ysengrin, but Ysengrin. Ysengrin has visited the court before. Admittedly, that was before all of this high alert, security code ("the Red Zone is for immediate loading and unloading of plotlines") stuff. Loup is less than the sum of his parts, right? So an Ysengrin-less Loup would probably be less than a whole Coyote. An Ysengrin removed from Loup may also be less than a whole Ysengrin - and parts of him may still remain within Loup, all on top of the Coyote bits and perhaps also some of Loup's own characteristics. (Surely he does have some which are his own, rather than just inherited?) Actually, I see Loup as having quite a balance of Ysengrin and Coyote. He rushes into action like the former, while also being a boiling cauldron of expressiveness like the latter. To my mind, an even more important difference is that Ysengrin visited the Court as an official forest medium. Any form of attacking him then could be an act of war. But now he is a nobody, and even his body would effectively be on loan from Loup. |
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Post by liminal on Nov 23, 2019 14:56:11 GMT
Eeerm guys... Have you noticed the white symbol on Loup's head changed? Since Coyote revealed that the lake water is another memory two pages ago, Loup's head symbol is missing a piece, as if to emphasize that having 'more' is already making him 'less'. Looks like my comment...was the one that got away.  |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 23, 2019 19:37:42 GMT
Looks like my comment...was the one that got away. That happens to comments at the bottom of pages sometimes. I completely missed it because I was composing my own post after having read to the one previous to yours, and I didn't check back until the thread had advanced to the next page. |
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Post by Draxiss on Nov 24, 2019 1:13:49 GMT
I still think that everyone is missing the possibility that Coyote didn't really control the forest. What administrative duties does Coyote actually perform? Did he arbitrate disputes? Make the rules of the forest? Does he even ENFORCE the rules? It seems like he mostly just hangs around and annoys people while acting all mysterious, and has underlings do the actual stuff. In fact, it seems like the forest mostly runs itself.
What would it even mean for Coyote or Loup to 'control' the forest? He already has control over the trees. Does Loup think this means like, mind control or something? Coyote pretty clearly NEVER did mind control (in a direct, literal sense; he's pretty non-stop manipulative), so I'm not really sure what's left. Coyote didn't really DO anything.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 24, 2019 3:58:30 GMT
I still think that everyone is missing the possibility that Coyote didn't really control the forest. What administrative duties does Coyote actually perform? Did he arbitrate disputes? Make the rules of the forest? Does he even ENFORCE the rules? It seems like he mostly just hangs around and annoys people while acting all mysterious, and has underlings do the actual stuff. In fact, it seems like the forest mostly runs itself. What would it even mean for Coyote or Loup to 'control' the forest? He already has control over the trees. Does Loup think this means like, mind control or something? Coyote pretty clearly NEVER did mind control (in a direct, literal sense; he's pretty non-stop manipulative), so I'm not really sure what's left. Coyote didn't really DO anything. Actually I did post about that, but approaching the issue from the topic of what Coyote is and why Coyote's gifts are imperfect. |
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Post by warrl on Nov 24, 2019 4:28:50 GMT
My take: Coyote didn't do, he was. Well, aside from not existing. He saw the forest as part of himself, and himself as part of the forest. And would just as conveniently extend that to any other part of the ecosystem, including the artificial constructs made by... ants, termites, beavers, bears, humans, lyre birds, octopi...
Ysengrin sees the forest as something separate, outside himself, and that's why he can't control it.
Confidence in this idea: low.
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