[2157] "A familiar?"

[netherdan]

Jun 5, 2019 15:40:56 GMT wynne said:

Jun 5, 2019 14:28:18 GMT gpvos said:

But... is the idea then that the contract *will* be re-used, and Arthur will become Juliette's familiar?

I'm kinda reading it as Arthur becomes his own familiar? Or "this advanced robot body becomes Arthur-the-non-robot's property in the same way Renard's toy wolf body is Annie's property."

I was gonna point out that a living mind cannot be owned and so Arthur could not "own" his new body but in fact a living mind CAN be owned, but only by the etheric mind that inhabits it and only one mind can own it at a time. That's why Rey's body snatching power kills its host, and Coyote's soul preserving (totenizing) power is why he can preserve the original owner. If Reynard wanted to leave a body and the host alive he should also have this secondary power, for they are entirely different things.

So (getting back to the point of the comment) Arthur can actually own his new body, but does that affect somehow the Court's property over his "self" or does the Court owns only his "robot body"? I mean, his source code is Diego's property and when he died he presumably gave property over their code to his golens (entrusted them with the continuation of his work), which then makes every robot own their own "minds". So, no conflict of contracts on the Court part?

Edit: but then again, Kat didn't need to directly mess with etheric contracts and try copying the Annie -> Rey one for reusing, she just needed to transfer Arthur and when he wakes up she would just say: "Hello Arthur! Hey, this new body you are now, it's yours. Make good use of it" and it would be done. Suddenly the "residual contract sponge golen arrow" theory makes a lot more sense to me. That or she just did it for curiosity's sake, to know if she could do it herself instead of just letting the world spin itself.

[Gotolei]

The way I read it, Renard becoming Annie's familiar is a way to emulate the status quo of Annie's case without requiring the contract, thus allowing the whole contract to be 'unlinked' from them to get rid of the conflict and change the contract (this time by the arbiter?) to work for Arthur's case.

[tustin2121]

I just came here to make a joke about Annie officially becoming a witch now that she has a familiar. That is all.

EDIT: Actually, that is not all: this change now means that Annie can now allow Rey to swap bodies and not lose possession of him like before. So Rey can be "up to his old tricks" again, more or less, but still be technically okay under the rules outlined previously by the court... which I'm sure the court are not going to like.

[hp]

Now the Chekov gun is... Who will Annie command him to possess?

[OGRuddawg]

Jun 5, 2019 7:38:04 GMT arkadi said:

Renard Is Surprisingly Fine With This Situation.

I mean, we know he's fond of Annie and all that, but you'd think he'd still like to have his own freedom.

I always interpreted Renard's willingness to stay under Annie's control as a somewhat pragmatic choice. Without Annie having the rights to his actions, the Court may (aka definitely) try to imprison him again or force him to leave the Court. I doubt Renard wants to leave Annie or give up his freedom, so in a way being owned by Annie gives him the most of the kind of "freedom" he wants, even if it isn't absolute. Cue 1984 references of "Freedom is Slavery."

Actually, does an entity under someone else's control have their behavior and thoughts altered by the ownership contract? I know ownership contracts allow Annie to give him commands, but are there any other effects from being under a contract? I'm not sure it's been explored in-comic.

[hnau]

Jun 5, 2019 18:24:07 GMT Gotolei said:

The way I read it, Renard becoming Annie's familiar is a way to emulate the status quo of Annie's case without requiring the contract, thus allowing the whole contract to be 'unlinked' from them to get rid of the conflict and change the contract (this time by the arbiter?) to work for Arthur's case.

This. Kat asked for a new contract. We expected the new contract to be used on Arthur. Instead, the new contract is given to Annie.

Kat can continue with the transfer of the old one to Arthur, as (not) intended.

[Gemini Jim]

So the Gunnerkrigg X-Men team now includes:

1) The Fire Elemental Twins, Etheric Girl and Laser Witch; and
1a) their demonic familiar Rey, with shapeshifting and body possession powers

2) The Robot Goddess

3) Orderly Lad

4) Teleportation Lass



Honestly, I think they could do the Court some serious damage if they wanted to.



* sorry, I can't think of a cool nickname for Rey

[Gemini Jim]

Well, Rey did say:

And now he is. 

*ba-dum tiss!*

[OGRuddawg]

Jun 5, 2019 18:27:25 GMT tustin2121 said:

I just came here to make a joke about Annie officially becoming a witch now that she has a familiar. That is all.

EDIT: Actually, that is not all: this change now means that Annie can now allow Rey to swap bodies and not lose possession of him like before. So Rey can be "up to his old tricks" again, more or less, but still be technically okay under the rules outlined previously by the court... which I'm sure the court are not going to like.

In order for the Court to allow Renard to roam free, Annie had to forbid Renard from: using his body snatching powers, attempting escape, and from attempting to harm Annie. Those requirements from the Court are still probably in effect, regardless what kind of contract Renard is under. I doubt the Court will let a change of contract create a loophole for Renard to use his body snatching powers freely. If any of those three orders are dissolved with the new contract I would expect the Court to use it as an excuse to come after Renard. I doubt Renard would be able to use the body snatching powers to take advantage of the new contract without running afoul of the Court in the process.

[mturtle7]

I notice a lot of people are (understandably) very concerned about both Annie and Renard's reactions to her having this sort of magical "control" over him. While it does seem problematic, I don't think their reasons for keeping it like this actually have anything to do with the Court's official edicts anymore; maybe at one point, that was the reason, but eventually it seems to have become a very important part of their unique relationship. Some references:
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=848
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1230

www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1648

Reading it over, I guess you could say that the ownership contract is Renard's way of punishing himself for his misdeeds; but it's also more than that. It's really become the only way he can feel proud and secure in himself; he has such little confidence in his own self-control that he literally needs someone with mind-control powers over him just to feel safe. What really sells this interpretation, I think, isn't Renard's actions but Annie's: both times before now she expressed interest in not having control over Renard, she acts like it's a responsibility she's giving up. By Chapter 32, at least, she understands perfectly well that her role as "owner" is not a burden but a service to Renard, a layer of protection for him against himself, which she's ready to give up the moment that either he doesn't need it or she isn't capable of providing it. So overall, I have to say that this "familiar" thing is actually quite a positive step for both of them. At the very least, it does make things more honest between them.

[hp]

Jun 5, 2019 19:36:01 GMT OGRuddawg said:

I always interpreted Renard's willingness to stay under Annie's control as a somewhat pragmatic choice. Without Annie having the rights to his actions, the Court may (aka definitely) try to imprison him again or force him to leave the Court. I doubt Renard wants to leave Annie or give up his freedom, so in a way being owned by Annie gives him the most of the kind of "freedom" he wants, even if it isn't absolute. Cue 1984 references of "Freedom is Slavery."

Actually, does an entity under someone else's control have their behavior and thoughts altered by the ownership contract? I know ownership contracts allow Annie to give him commands, but are there any other effects from being under a contract? I'm not sure it's been explored in-comic.

In that chapter with Hettie (that shrimp spirit that was trapped inside a doll and had a grudge against her "owner" who didn't even know who she was) Rey goes into some detail about how he feels about his current situation and about Annie... Besides having grown fond of her, he takes great shame in having killed Daniel and Sivo by possessing their bodies and in attempting to do the same to Annie (before Eglamore stopped him). So he "brazenly" wears her mark in his forehead.

"This body is my shame. And when she smiles at me, I feel the shame of that moment anew. And when I wear this symbol, I wear it with pride"

[stevencloser]

Jun 5, 2019 12:03:18 GMT Corvo said:

Ok, I understand where Renard is coming from: he's lived for centuries and will (hopefully) live for many more, so spending a few decades under someone's orders should sound more like a curious job than a lifetime of servitude. But Annie being ok with having Renard under her control for the rest of her life, no matter what body he takes? Well, that's just cold! Specially after all that drama with her father and the "I don't deserve to have any power over you" talk.

And what's with Saslamel's logic?! How does giving Renard (his "soul", let's call it) to Annie balances her giving up the wolf toy?!

You will find that in the world of bureaucracy things don't have to make sense.

[pyradonis]

Jun 5, 2019 18:32:32 GMT hp said:

Now the Chekov gun is... Who will Annie command him to possess?

Why do so many people assume she will? You do realize this equals to Annie ordering Renard to kill someone, right? Where in the comic was it shown that Annie would ever consider such a thing?

[ohthatone]

Jun 5, 2019 18:32:32 GMT hp said:

Now the Chekov gun is... Who will Annie command him to possess?

the other Annie

[MarineMonarch]

Jun 6, 2019 10:54:27 GMT pyradonis said:

Jun 5, 2019 18:32:32 GMT hp said:

Now the Chekov gun is... Who will Annie command him to possess?

Why do so many people assume she will? You do realize this equals to Annie ordering Renard to kill someone, right? Where in the comic was it shown that Annie would ever consider such a thing?

When people see a chekov's gun being set up, it's tempting to just go all out thinking about the various people it could shoot, regardless of how uh, realistic any of those thoughts are.

[hp]

Jun 6, 2019 10:54:27 GMT pyradonis said:

Jun 5, 2019 18:32:32 GMT hp said:

Now the Chekov gun is... Who will Annie command him to possess?

Why do so many people assume she will? You do realize this equals to Annie ordering Renard to kill someone, right? Where in the comic was it shown that Annie would ever consider such a thing?

To save the world or a friend from someone? I was thinking about Loup or something like that.

(And I bet doing that would fit Coyote's "batman gambit" to the letter.)

[Gemini Jim]

Jun 6, 2019 14:20:09 GMT MarineMonarch said:

Jun 6, 2019 10:54:27 GMT pyradonis said:

Why do so many people assume she will? You do realize this equals to Annie ordering Renard to kill someone, right? Where in the comic was it shown that Annie would ever consider such a thing?

When people see a chekov's gun being set up, it's tempting to just go all out thinking about the various people it could shoot, regardless of how uh, realistic any of those thoughts are.

Tom has a bad habit of throwing Chekov's Guns around the room, along with objects which look like they could be used as guns, and hiding guns in unexpected places. So naturally, we start seeing guns everywhere.

There is also a certain amount of Gun Crack Shipping which may have nothing to do with the actual comic.


But, while it's not likely that Annie would let Rey possess just anybody for no good reason, I would think that the option would at least be there for any serious threats from Loup ("the artifacts or your life!") or anything else.



* Can Loup die? Well, Coyote wanted to experience death, and Loup is at least half-Coyote...

[hp]

Quick doubt not related to any wildspec: Could Jones be possessed by Rey? She has eyes, after all (wasn't that the only requirement?).

But if she's not "alive" in the strict sense, as speculated somewhere, the possession might not kill her?

[gpvos]

Jun 6, 2019 16:24:00 GMT hp said:

Jun 6, 2019 10:54:27 GMT pyradonis said:

You do realize this equals to Annie ordering Renard to kill someone, right?

I was thinking about Loup or something like that.

I have no idea why I see several people proposing this; Coyote, and therefore Loup, is powerful enough to stop Renard from doing that, see Word of Tom.

[mturtle7]

Jun 6, 2019 19:52:39 GMT hp said:

Quick doubt not related to any wildspec: Could Jones be possessed by Rey? She has eyes, after all (wasn't that the only requirement?).

But if she's not "alive" in the strict sense, as speculated somewhere, the possession might not kill her? (emphasis added)

Of all the "but what if Jones _____" questions out there, this might actually be my favorite (the second part, that is; the first part basically answers itself). I have absolutely no idea whether Jones could actually be killed in this way! I think it all depends on the relation between body, mind, and life. If Rey's gift kills just by replacing the mind of whoever he inhabits, I think Jones would definitely die. But if instead it kills by somehow directly using up someone's life force in exchange for room for Rey's soul, then she might actually be able to survive, and report back about what it was like. Although, I've always been rather skeptical about her claims to be nothing but an inanimate object, so it might also be possible that Renard would prove her wrong by taking away the life force she didn't know she had.

[Gemini Jim]

Jun 7, 2019 5:56:30 GMT mturtle7 said:

Jun 6, 2019 19:52:39 GMT hp said:

Quick doubt not related to any wildspec: Could Jones be possessed by Rey? She has eyes, after all (wasn't that the only requirement?).

But if she's not "alive" in the strict sense, as speculated somewhere, the possession might not kill her? (emphasis added)

Of all the "but what if Jones _____" questions out there, this might actually be my favorite (the second part, that is; the first part basically answers itself). I have absolutely no idea whether Jones could actually be killed in this way! I think it all depends on the relation between body, mind, and life. If Rey's gift kills just by replacing the mind of whoever he inhabits, I think Jones would definitely die. But if instead it kills by somehow directly using up someone's life force in exchange for room for Rey's soul, then she might actually be able to survive, and report back about what it was like. Although, I've always been rather skeptical about her claims to be nothing but an inanimate object, so it might also be possible that Renard would prove her wrong by taking away the life force she didn't know she had.

WildSpec: Whatever Jones is, it seems obvious that her body is fairly nigh-indestructible. Maybe her mind is equally so. (Why? Because she's been around for as long as the Earth has, and perhaps she's something Gunnerkrigg Earth needs.)

So instead of killing Jones, her mind would simply be shoved back a bit.

*deadpan* "Get out. You don't belong here, Reynardine."

*gulp* "Yes, ma'am." *sweatdrop* *leaves*

[pyradonis]

Jun 7, 2019 14:56:23 GMT Gemini Jim said:

Jun 7, 2019 5:56:30 GMT mturtle7 said:

Of all the "but what if Jones _____" questions out there, this might actually be my favorite (the second part, that is; the first part basically answers itself). I have absolutely no idea whether Jones could actually be killed in this way! I think it all depends on the relation between body, mind, and life. If Rey's gift kills just by replacing the mind of whoever he inhabits, I think Jones would definitely die. But if instead it kills by somehow directly using up someone's life force in exchange for room for Rey's soul, then she might actually be able to survive, and report back about what it was like. Although, I've always been rather skeptical about her claims to be nothing but an inanimate object, so it might also be possible that Renard would prove her wrong by taking away the life force she didn't know she had.

WildSpec: Whatever Jones is, it seems obvious that her body is fairly nigh-indestructible. Maybe her mind is equally so. (Why? Because she's been around for as long as the Earth has, and perhaps she's something Gunnerkrigg Earth needs.)

So instead of killing Jones, her mind would simply be shoved back a bit.

*deadpan* "Get out. You don't belong here, Reynardine."

*gulp* "Yes, ma'am." *sweatdrop* *leaves*

Or we would get a chapter where they both share the body, paving the way for a wacky comedy spinoff.

[hp]

Jun 7, 2019 15:49:01 GMT pyradonis said:

Jun 7, 2019 14:56:23 GMT Gemini Jim said:

WildSpec: Whatever Jones is, it seems obvious that her body is fairly nigh-indestructible. Maybe her mind is equally so. (Why? Because she's been around for as long as the Earth has, and perhaps she's something Gunnerkrigg Earth needs.)

So instead of killing Jones, her mind would simply be shoved back a bit.

*deadpan* "Get out. You don't belong here, Reynardine."

*gulp* "Yes, ma'am." *sweatdrop* *leaves*

Or we would get a chapter where they both share the body, paving the way for a wacky comedy spinoff.

LAUGHING ON LINE Imagine the change in body language when Rey took the wheel

[pyradonis]

Jun 7, 2019 16:31:35 GMT hp said:

Jun 7, 2019 15:49:01 GMT pyradonis said:

Or we would get a chapter where they both share the body, paving the way for a wacky comedy spinoff.

LAUGHING ON LINE Imagine the change in body language when Rey took the wheel

*Turns Jones into a muscular male figure with pointed ears and teeth.* "Does THIS excite you, girl?"

[rosesonthewall]

Rey’s 😗 face in the third panel makes me laugh everytime

[rosesonthewall]

Jun 5, 2019 15:37:15 GMT MarineMonarch said:

Man, I've been re-reading some early parts of the comic, and it's so cool to see Renard come this far. The genuine loving bond between him and Annie is really so sweet, and built up over so long. He's no longer afraid of admitting how much he cares about her. What a cool dude.

I love this too, it’s one of my favourite parts of the comic!