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Post by aline on Jan 2, 2019 18:24:49 GMT
Ugh. Every time he acts normal it pisses me off because where was this when she needed it, Anthony!? For some reason it feels especially gross here where he's with her. Like all the times he was an emotional and just general neglectful dick to her didn't happen. Sure, once you started being a dick, you should keep doing that until you die. Never ever try to better yourself, it's just plain annoying.
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Post by ohthatone on Jan 2, 2019 18:30:40 GMT
I love this page! To me it seems that Tony has grown more as a person and a parent (even though it was off screen I would like to have actually SEEN that growth but eh...) He is trying to comfort and relate to her. Annie wants to help with dinner and he says "sure", with no hesitation and no sense of "don't eff up, kid." What the hey-hoo happened in 6 months?? and I'm happy that Annie finally gets to see the smile that he probably generally saved for Surma. I wouldn't be surprised to find that Tony might actually favor Forest!Annie a bit just because she is the odd duck at the moment and he can empathize. Plus I'm still of the mind that Court!Annie doesn't seem to have the same fire (metaphorically) as Forest!Annie, which Tony admired in Surma. Which would be absolutely horrible and unfair to Court!Annie if that proved true. I still feel like she's being petty towards Forest!Annie, but per a previous post, I DO understand why.
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Post by saardvark on Jan 2, 2019 19:11:41 GMT
I love this page! To me it seems that Tony has grown more as a person and a parent (even though it was off screen I would like to have actually SEEN that growth but eh...) He is trying to comfort and relate to her. Annie wants to help with dinner and he says "sure", with no hesitation and no sense of "don't eff up, kid." What the hey-hoo happened in 6 months?? and I'm happy that Annie finally gets to see the smile that he probably generally saved for Surma. I wouldn't be surprised to find that Tony might actually favor Forest!Annie a bit just because she is the odd duck at the moment and he can empathize. Plus I'm still of the mind that Court!Annie doesn't seem to have the same fire (metaphorically) as Forest!Annie, which Tony admired in Surma. Which would be absolutely horrible and unfair to Court!Annie if that proved true. I still feel like she's being petty towards Forest!Annie, but per a previous post, I DO understand why. heck, she doesn't have the same fire (physically/etherically)! www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2069(I know I keep harping on this...sorry!) Ive mostly come around to the idea that both are "real", tho time shifted, versions of Annie. C!Annie's fire looks wonky because it didn't "heal" back to her as well as F!Annie's did, who had to match wits with Loup. C!Annie apparently hasn't been challenged as severely, and it was apparently only in the crucible, the hot forge of mental/etheric combat with Loup, that F!Annie's break with her elemental was healed more completely.
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Post by youwiththeface on Jan 2, 2019 19:50:18 GMT
Ugh. Every time he acts normal it pisses me off because where was this when she needed it, Anthony!? For some reason it feels especially gross here where he's with her. Like all the times he was an emotional and just general neglectful dick to her didn't happen. Sure, once you started being a dick, you should keep doing that until you die. Never ever try to better yourself, it's just plain annoying. Want some gasoline? If we pour it on that strawman it'll burn so much better. The options aren't only: Keep acting like a dick Stop acting like a dick and pretend you never were one. There's also a third option. Fucking apologize. Talk it out with Antimony and tell her why you acted like that, make it clear to her that you recognize now how that was a mistake and that it hurt her, reassure her that you are going to try to stop that behavior now because you recognize how it was bad for her and yourself and your relationship with each other, and let her vent to you about how she felt about it and how she thinks you could do things better. Oh, and while you're at it, you could apologize for nearly killing her while you were trying to bring back her dead mom, and also for how snappish you were about her asking about your new hand, because it totally was her business, all considering. Antimony has clearly suffered because of Tony's behavior. Moving right along past their previous interactions into happy fun functional family land without acknowledging that invalidates the pain Annie's been in and ignores anything Tony could be doing to help her heal it. Not to mention that it gives her no emotional stability if he's going to bounce from one set of behaviors to another. She's never going to feel like she can trust him to be consistent with her if he keeps changing around.
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Post by mturtle7 on Jan 2, 2019 20:52:37 GMT
I really like how Annie's face in the fifth panel here is basically just a more extreme version of her face from this comic (right down to the sparkles around her head).
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 2, 2019 21:03:28 GMT
This had better be the real Tony. And let's hope this is not the end, but that he will not only be nice now, but also start apologizing for all the fatherly screw-ups in the past.
In any case, he definitely seems to see both Courtney and Fannie as real.
Now, who wants to bet the next chapter will depict the past six months in the Court?
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Post by foresterr on Jan 2, 2019 21:20:39 GMT
As a more subtle part of his trick, Loup has replaced Tony with a clone. That's not enough. He moved forest Annie into some complete Timeline Beta parallel universe (divergence point: Annie got spooked, turned back). In the meantime, he actually destroyed the Court in original Timeline Alpha (either out of annoyance when they started looking, or when showing how he can break the barrier... the map was a bit too close to the territory, you see), but was too embarassed to admit it afterwards. TBH I hope that's just Tony, and that we get to see a bit of the process that brought him here (except for the very beginning, that is).
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yinglung
Full Member
It's only a tatter of mime.
Posts: 190
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Post by yinglung on Jan 2, 2019 21:32:13 GMT
WTF? I just don't get Tony. I guess he can only act nice around Annie if she's got long hair or if she might be a fake construct dreamed up by a god or something. Or if he has had 6 months of living and fighting alongside her, making mistakes and learning how to be a better father. There's also a third option. Fucking apologize. Talk it out with Antimony and tell her why you acted like that, make it clear to her that you recognize now how that was a mistake and that it hurt her, reassure her that you are going to try to stop that behavior now because you recognize how it was bad for her and yourself and your relationship with each other, and let her vent to you about how she felt about it and how she thinks you could do things better. Oh, and while you're at it, you could apologize for nearly killing her while you were trying to bring back her dead mom, and also for how snappish you were about her asking about your new hand, because it totally was her business, all considering. Antimony has clearly suffered because of Tony's behavior. Moving right along past their previous interactions into happy fun functional family land without acknowledging that invalidates the pain Annie's been in and ignores anything Tony could be doing to help her heal it. Not to mention that it gives her no emotional stability if he's going to bounce from one set of behaviors to another. She's never going to feel like she can trust him to be consistent with her if he keeps changing around. That would be ideal, taking an inventory of what he's done and trying to fix or make up for what he can. It's possible some of that has occurred off screen, in the six months with court!Annie. That may be a challenge going forward, where there are two daughters that are at different points along what once was one relationship.
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Post by ohthatone on Jan 2, 2019 22:08:14 GMT
That would be ideal, taking an inventory of what he's done and trying to fix or make up for what he can. It's possible some of that has occurred off screen, in the six months with court!Annie. That may be a challenge going forward, where there are two daughters that are at different points along what once was one relationship. It's possible all that occurred off screen, but I doubt Tony has sat down with Court!Annie and made that ginormous emotional leap. The two of them have probably just slowly been figuring each other out and getting comfortable. Court!Annie has done the work of getting Tony to relax around her. If an apology is forthcoming, i think we'll get to see it.
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Post by avurai on Jan 2, 2019 23:39:37 GMT
This is the first page with Tony in it that's made me genuinely smile.
I'm happy that this has happened for Annie. Chiefly because this is the first time where Annie being happy about Tony's kindness doesn't come across as a way for Tony to gain anything. He's literally just trying to make her feel better. I like this from him.
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Post by faiiry on Jan 3, 2019 0:39:12 GMT
WTF? I just don't get Tony. I guess he can only act nice around Annie if she's got long hair or if she might be a fake construct dreamed up by a god or something. Or if he has had 6 months of living and fighting alongside her, making mistakes and learning how to be a better father. He had twelve YEARS to be a non-deadbeat when they were living in the hospital. But I guess I'm glad he's finally trying his best to not suck. Took him long enough.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 3, 2019 1:34:27 GMT
Judging by the example in the comic Anthony doesn't fight side-by-side with Courtnie but apparently he does trust her to handle situations competently, at least when Kat is there. Maybe he has praised Courtnie after the fact at some point.
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yinglung
Full Member
It's only a tatter of mime.
Posts: 190
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Post by yinglung on Jan 3, 2019 4:06:18 GMT
Judging by the example in the comic Anthony doesn't fight side-by-side with Courtnie but apparently he does trust her to handle situations competently, at least when Kat is there. Maybe he has praised Courtnie after the fact at some point. To be fair, a doctor who knows judo doesn't really compare to lasers. If there were more attackers, there would be a need for someone to throw things around until Annie can finish them off.
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Post by fia on Jan 3, 2019 4:16:15 GMT
Annie's eyes in the last panel are even more unnerving. Also they better be making cookies, because someone's getting them: Also: I bet Tony cooks. Because we could tell Surma probably never did, Annie lived her whole young life in the hospital, and Tony has at least a stir fry recipe he can make. nom nom nom nom ..! I totally did actually see this page coming, I just wasn't expecting it so soon! I am a happy duck.
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Post by maxptc on Jan 3, 2019 5:00:25 GMT
Not that I think Tony is only this way with F!Annie, but it would make total sense. The way F!Annie feels, (its gotta be awkward being a whole six months out of time and being precived as the copy) is something Tony can actually empathize with. Feeling awkward about a situation is something Tony is great at.
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Post by penguinguy on Jan 3, 2019 5:27:36 GMT
I really don't know how to feel about Tony now. At least he seems self aware. He did some pretty awful things to Annie, abandoning her, and then the first thing he does is (at least seemingly unintentionally) establish his dominance by forcing her to remove her make up, a dominance which he has never relinquished, at least from Forest Annie's perspective. And she never seems to care, she just wants his love and attention though its understandable so, given that's what most children want, and Annie had no parents around for a long time. But we know that Tony is filled with grief about his actions, that he regrets what he did to Annie. And he really has done his best to keep Annie in the courts good graces, or at least better graces. And like others said, he was very important in letting Annie go to the Forest to start this whole mess.
The newest page feels so nice and wholesome; relaxed Tony is just really so charming. Every panel of the page is Tony doing or saying the right thing. I want Tony to be a great dad and person and he's definitely trying and has been trying, but this is just such a change and knowing the history just a little unnerving. Tony and his relationship with Annie is just so complex!
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Post by bedinsis on Jan 3, 2019 5:37:14 GMT
What are they cooking by the way? I see eggs, chopped veggies and bowl with a beater in Tony's hand... Omelettes?
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Post by maxptc on Jan 3, 2019 7:00:06 GMT
What are they cooking by the way? I see eggs, chopped veggies and bowl with a beater in Tony's hand... Omelettes? I think he's making a batter. Maybe it going to become fried veggies and meat of some kind?
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Post by todd on Jan 3, 2019 13:29:05 GMT
Tony did argue for Annie to be allowed to go into the forest, which was already a major pivot point for his character. When this decision drew the ire of Eglamore, Tony was forced to explain that he had been wrong before and realized this after better learning the overall situation at Court. He certainly came across in that scene as far more the grown-up than Eglamore. While Eglamore had a point about it being a dangerous plan, he seemed to be opposing it more because of his feud with Antony over Surma (all the more so since he didn't even offer any alternate solutions).
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Post by saardvark on Jan 3, 2019 14:11:40 GMT
What are they cooking by the way? I see eggs, chopped veggies and bowl with a beater in Tony's hand... Omelettes? I think he's making a batter. Maybe it going to become fried veggies and meat of some kind? Tempura?
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Post by magiekarp on Jan 3, 2019 16:59:26 GMT
It'll be detrimental to both Annies in the long run if the reason that Tony is acting so natural in front of Fanny is because he doesn't believe that Fanny is the real Annie. However, it could just be due to the fact that he is never truly along with the Original Annie because she was always with Rey.
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Post by maxptc on Jan 3, 2019 21:26:57 GMT
I mean, the most likely answer is the most obvious one. Tony can't be chill around more then one person. But in one on one situations, he's cool. We've been shown this time and time again, with how he is with Kat, Donny, Surma and now Annie individually. It also makes sense since Tony literally told Surma that was his whole deal.
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Post by zaferion on Jan 3, 2019 23:49:17 GMT
]There's also a third option. Fucking apologize. Talk it out with Antimony and tell her why you acted like that, make it clear to her that you recognize now how that was a mistake and that it hurt her, reassure her that you are going to try to stop that behavior now because you recognize how it was bad for her and yourself and your relationship with each other, and let her vent to you about how she felt about it and how she thinks you could do things better. Oh, and while you're at it, you could apologize for nearly killing her while you were trying to bring back her dead mom, and also for how snappish you were about her asking about your new hand, because it totally was her business, all considering. Antimony has clearly suffered because of Tony's behavior. Moving right along past their previous interactions into happy fun functional family land without acknowledging that invalidates the pain Annie's been in and ignores anything Tony could be doing to help her heal it. Not to mention that it gives her no emotional stability if he's going to bounce from one set of behaviors to another. She's never going to feel like she can trust him to be consistent with her if he keeps changing around. My dude, a protracted conversation and apology with Tony about his wrongdoings in the past is not what Annie needs right now. She's confused, lost, and alone in a world that, from her perspective, she belonged to just a few hours ago. More than anything, she needs a comforting presence, and Tony has every right to be that presence if he's worked through his intense social anxiety enough to be able to provide it for her. And aside from that, Annie is so emotionally and socially off balance right now that she might not be able to handle such a heavy problem so deeply embedded in her psyche, especially if she potentially doesn't have Kat to fall back on. The apologies and asking for forgiveness can wait until later. Let the man comfort his daughter.
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donna
New Member
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Post by donna on Jan 4, 2019 3:11:45 GMT
I think what makes Tom such a great storyteller is that he can take this insane ridiculous plot and make us believe his characters are real. Why are they so real? Perhaps because, like real live people, they have nuance and dimension. They are neither pure nor evil, but at times you want to smack them. At times you want to hug them. Like real people.
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 4, 2019 13:26:40 GMT
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Post by tc on Jan 4, 2019 14:26:01 GMT
First panel: Both Tony and Annie don't like themselves very much. That's sad. We've just been shown that Annie's annoyance with "herself" is relatively superficial, however... I think it's worth remembering that Tony's initial behaviour towards Annie upon his return was ordered by the Court (as was Annie's punishment). I've always been fairly certain that Tony's sense of self-loathing (to the extent that he feels undeserving of Annie) was the only rational conduit which allowed him to force himself to go through with it. He also had to be aware that the Court would have been keeping Annie under very close surveillance, because it/they considered Annie's relationship with Coyote, Ysengrin and the Gillitie folk to be dangerous. Now, not only has Loup's destructive outburst put the Court on the back foot - but I'd wager that a lot of the surveillance technology it relied on has been put out of action too. If Tony had the ability to stop the Court from snooping on him inside his house before, he's certainly able to do it again in the new place, and the Court suddenly has much more pressing worries than what's happening with his daughter(s?). So I reckon what we're seeing now is the "real" Tony. I think it's also worth noting that back on page 2089 Renard and Tony seem to have reached an understanding. That in itself is a pretty big deal.
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Post by Runningflame on Jan 4, 2019 17:46:12 GMT
Now, not only has Loup's destructive outburst put the Court on the back foot - but I'd wager that a lot of the surveillance technology it relied on has been put out of action too. If Tony had the ability to stop the Court from snooping on him inside his house before, he's certainly able to do it again in the new place, and the Court suddenly has much more pressing worries than what's happening with his daughter(s?). So I reckon what we're seeing now is the "real" Tony. Thank you--this is the point we've all been forgetting. All of the Tony-Annie interactions we've seen before have been in areas where the Court could be (and probably was) watching them. SO, Tony was never alone with Annie! The Court was there as an extra observer, which meant Tony could never let his guard down. The only places we've ever seen him relax, now that I think of it, are in Brazil and in his house(s). Tony and Zimmy might be able to relate to one other.
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Post by coastal on Jan 5, 2019 14:53:39 GMT
I find the discussion on this thread really odd. Why is everyone analyzing Tony's actions, but not his words? I feel like his statements on this page are incredibly significant. First of all, although very far from an actual apology, Tony's first statement is a hint to Annie that he doesn't approve of his personality and/or past actions. Second, it establishes that he's found a way to relate to Annie through a problem they have in common. The last one might be the biggest. "We'll figure it this out". Tony is someone who obsesses over fixing problems. His last big one was trying to fix Surma, at which he failed. Now, possibly he sees a second chance to fix someone, maybe even a chance at redeeming himself in Annie's eyes, by fixing her split-person problem. Who knows what he thinks he's going to do to fix the situation? He might not even have an idea himself. It's just that, before now, he's seen his presence in Annie's life as unwanted and unconstructive. Now? Now he has something to work with. When I began reading Gunnerkrigg Court (I read chapters 1-61 almost two years ago, and couldn't put it down until I reached the then-current chapter), I felt that Annie's relationship with her parents was the heart of the story, and I still think so now. And this page is very important in that aspect.
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Post by saardvark on Jan 5, 2019 16:16:48 GMT
I find the discussion on this thread really odd. Why is everyone analyzing Tony's actions, but not his words? I feel like his statements on this page are incredibly significant. First of all, although very far from an actual apology, Tony's first statement is a hint to Annie that he doesn't approve of his personality and/or past actions. Second, it establishes that he's found a way to relate to Annie through a problem they have in common. The last one might be the biggest. "We'll figure it this out". Tony is someone who obsesses over fixing problems. His last big one was trying to fix Surma, at which he failed. Now, possibly he sees a second chance to fix someone, maybe even a chance at redeeming himself in Annie's eyes, by fixing her split-person problem. Who knows what he thinks he's going to do to fix the situation? He might not even have an idea himself. It's just that, before now, he's seen his presence in Annie's life as unwanted and unconstructive. Now? Now he has something to work with. When I began reading Gunnerkrigg Court (I read chapters 1-61 almost two years ago, and couldn't put it down until I reached the then-current chapter), I felt that Annie's relationship with her parents was the heart of the story, and I still think so now. And this page is very important in that aspect. welcome to the forum, coastal! well reasoned post....
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Post by DonDueed on Jan 5, 2019 19:27:08 GMT
The last one might be the biggest. "We'll figure it this out". Tony is someone who obsesses over fixing problems. His last big one was trying to fix Surma, at which he failed. Now, possibly he sees a second chance to fix someone, maybe even a chance at redeeming himself in Annie's eyes, by fixing her split-person problem. Who knows what he thinks he's going to do to fix the situation? He might not even have an idea himself. It's just that, before now, he's seen his presence in Annie's life as unwanted and unconstructive. Now? Now he has something to work with. Welcome, coastal! Do you live near Annie's new digs?
I had a different interpretation of the "We'll figure this out" line. I felt it referred to the problem of how the two Annies would get along with each other and their friends and family. Tony says it right after Court!Annie walks out in a literal huff, so it seemed like he was referring to that situation rather than the splitting and/or reversing of same.
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