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Post by fia on Nov 21, 2018 21:11:23 GMT
I figure since we're all speculating anyway it might be nice to have a graphic way of keeping track, haha. We may know the truth on Friday, or we may not know until next December or the end of Gunnerkrigg...
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Post by philman on Nov 22, 2018 9:02:15 GMT
I'm going for accidental duplication, but something to do with the timestop in the forest causing the problem rather than a problem with the Court's side.
Although the chapter is called Loup's trick, so it might make more sense for it to be intentional...
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Post by netherdan on Nov 22, 2018 12:05:23 GMT
I'm going for accidental duplication, but something to do with the timestop in the forest causing the problem rather than a problem with the Court's side. Although the chapter is called Loup's trick, so it might make more sense for it to be intentional... Same for me. I think that, upon entering the halted zone, Annie's timelines were split (Rick and Morty style) and one of her versions was greeted by "Ysengrin" and hurried back while the other stayed and had the talk with Loup |
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Post by keef on Nov 22, 2018 13:50:07 GMT
The author more or less confirmed Loup's responsibility with " That's what he did.", so that everything unlikely or impossible for Loup is off the table. I have no idea how Loup did it, but some form of duplication looks likely. In that case one of them is not so much fake, but a copy.
I suspect Loup is a lot less capable than he thinks he is, so the copy might not be too stable. Court Annie has proven to be durable,as she has been out of Loup's reach for six months. Forest-Annie left Loup's proximity less than a day ago, so she is the copy, and will fall apart, explode, melt, or be absorbed soon. |
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heranje
Full Member
Oh super wow!
Posts: 175
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Post by heranje on Nov 22, 2018 14:11:34 GMT
I feel like it's been pretty firmly established that whatever happened was intentional on Loup's part. He acknowledged responsibility by telling Annie he had to "play a little trick" to keep the Court from searching for her and saying "I do hope you will forgive me!", the chapter is called Loup's Trick, and Tom's page comment on revealing Court-Annie was "That's what he did." If it wasn't something Loup did on purpose, that'd be pretty epic-level misdirection on the part of Tom and the narrative (and not the fun kind of ambiguous misdirection, pretty much a direct lie, which is not a very elegant way to create a plot twist).
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Post by philman on Nov 22, 2018 14:45:20 GMT
The author more or less confirmed Loup's responsibility with " That's what he did.", so that everything unlikely or impossible for Loup is off the table. I have no idea how Loup did it, but some form of duplication looks likely. In that case one of them is not so much fake, but a copy.
I suspect Loup is a lot less capable than he thinks he is, so the copy might not be too stable. Court Annie has proven to be durable,as she has been out of Loup's reach for six months. Forest-Annie left Loup's proximity less than a day ago, so she is the copy, and will fall apart, explode, melt, or be absorbed soon. I agree that if one of them definitely is a copy, I expect it will be the forest Annie. I'm starting to think now that Loup carved off a little piece of Annie's soul(?!) in order to explain what was going on to her in the timestopped world, and let the rest of her go back to the court. Maybe this is represented by the incomplete looking etheric form we saw of the court Annie a few pages ago, it appears ripped and torn because the forest Annie was ripped from it. Now that this part of her soul is back in the "real" world, it will probably start to degenerate soon, which I expect we see in the rest of the chapter, and the etheric portion of the forest copy will recombine with court Annie, filling in the holes in CourtAnnie's etheric form, and imparting all of the information she gained from Loup to the now full and complete Annie. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 22, 2018 16:52:57 GMT
The problem I have with Forest!Annie being a fake is that "Loup" was not only willing to talk to her at length but tried to get her to agree to stay with him, praised her, and showed off his powers for her repeatedly. Court!Annie was sent back without much in the way of conversation and possibly even lied to in that "Loup" said he'd stop his attack (even if dropping Jones on the Court doesn't count he's threatened to do more if the gifts aren't returned, and intends to do something to "handle" the Court and whatever it's researching even after the gifts are returned) so if only one Annie is fake I think it must be her. That said, they both could be fake or real.
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Post by keef on Nov 22, 2018 20:35:43 GMT
The problem I have with Forest!Annie being a fake is that "Loup" was not only willing to talk to her at length but tried to get her to agree to stay with him, praised her, and showed off his powers for her repeatedly. Yes, if forest-Annie is a copy or fake, her memories have to be preserved, or the whole, somewhat longish, "Neither" chapter makes no sense. |
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Aura
Junior Member
I'm a ninja!
Posts: 79
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Post by Aura on Nov 23, 2018 8:56:18 GMT
I recently watched an anime where a chick had two versions of herself simply because she wasn't happy with who she was. I can't remember the explanation given but I think the mirroring theory is close to what happened in that anime.
She simply split at a certain point in time and had two versions of herself.when her problem was resolved she became one again.
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Post by csj on Nov 23, 2018 10:10:14 GMT
how dare ye deny the divinity of the Word of Tom
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Post by netherdan on Nov 23, 2018 12:54:53 GMT
I recently watched an anime where a chick had two versions of herself simply because she wasn't happy with who she was. I can't remember the explanation given but I think the mirroring theory is close to what happened in that anime. She simply split at a certain point in time and had two versions of herself.when her problem was resolved she became one again. Perfect Blue? |
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Post by fia on Nov 23, 2018 15:48:24 GMT
If it's like a Perfect Blue situation that would be more of a psychic anomaly like the Zimmy case, no? That's something like 'split personality'. Maybe I should have made that its own option. It does seem from their design like Court Annie is the straight-laced serious one and Forest Annie is the more outspoken one – formerly both traits of regular Annie, shown at different times.
My personal example of "mirroring" is an Alice in Wonderland type situation, where there only needs to be one mirror world or pocket universe (as opposed to every possible one) that is basically a 'mirrored' version of the real one, with characters just slightly 'off' from their regular selves. A mirror is an easy way to duplicate an image without much effort – if you have magic powers, I imagine there might be a similar mechanism for mirroring personalities and magic properties.
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Post by todd on Nov 25, 2018 15:24:51 GMT
Yes, if forest-Annie is a copy or fake, her memories have to be preserved, or the whole, somewhat longish, "Neither" chapter makes no sense. Yes, that strikes me as the strongest argument against the long-haired version of Annie being a fake - all that crucial exposition in "Neither". (Unless it's a repeat-of-a-sort of the Zimmy business, with Loup turning one of the forest-folk - say, the fairy who was friends with the rabbit - into a duplicate of Annie and tricking her into thinking that she is Annie - meaning that this is a "real person" we're dealing with, who simply happens to be someone other than Annie. But even that seems way too complicated.) Loup somehow splitting Annie in two strikes me as the best explanation - certainly the simplest one. |
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Post by bedinsis on Nov 26, 2018 20:48:25 GMT
What I think happened was that Loup needed some way to distract the court for the time being and without thinking it through made the copy. What the ramifications will be is probably that either they cannot figure out who the copy is and the comic will contain two Annies going forward, ensuring that Annie will continue to have issues of vying for her father's attention, intermixed with the knowledge that Kat and everyone she knows have undergone character development that makes them closer to her double, and thus distancing herself further from the rest. Alternatively if they determine that one of them is the copy and the copy will have to in some way be forced to no longer exist, and her being a psychopomp in-training will be forced to do the deed, meanwhile seeing the people closest to her see "her" pass away, and the six month of character development will be lost like tears in the rain. Alternatively they could in some way merge, but I think that is too convenient.
---
When I read about Loup there was another character from a video game I thought of. However even bringing the character up would be a SPOILER for the game in question.
It's a 7 year old game. I will mention it in the next paragraphs. Highlight for readability
---
The character I am reminded of is from portal2 and wheatley is his name.
Both are characters which were purposefully made by humans to be morons and resented that.
Both became mad with power once they were given ultimate power within their universe.
When Annie met Loup he tried to keep a friendly a demeanor to ensure that he got what he wanted and to make it appear like he was in control of the situation; wheatley attempted to subtly imply he would murder the protagonist in a way that only can be described as sad and when he laid a successful trap which the protagonist could easily escape he reacted with panic.
The final comparison, and this is the one that is a speculation, was that wheatley jerry-rigged solutions for how the various tools at his disposal could be used to fulfill his immediate goals without really considering if there was smarter ways to go about it or if his solutions actually resolved the issues(Problem: alarm warning that the place will explode. Solution: turn off the alarm. Problem: the display to show the test chamber number is unable to be accessed. Solution: use wall panels to type out a big out of place digital number). This was understandable somewhat since he had suddenly been given powers beyond his own comprehension. Meanwhile, Loup, I believe, has also been powers beyond his comprehension, and his solutions are probably also jerry-rigged.(Problem: The series of interconnected system of Gillitie forest was too much to handle. Solution: stop all forest dwellers in their tracks, ignoring any possible long term consequences. Problem: The court is searching for Annie. Solution: Create a flesh-and-blood copy of her to keep them distracted, possibly splitting her etherself in the process, ignoring the long terms consequences of there now being two Annies walking around claiming the same personhood.)
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Post by faiiry on Nov 26, 2018 21:07:27 GMT
This conclusion isn't very interesting, but I think the answer might be as simple as "Loup is a god and can do whatever the hell he wants."
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Post by mturtle7 on Nov 26, 2018 21:14:07 GMT
What I think happened was that Loup needed some way to distract the court for the time being and without thinking it through made the copy. What the ramifications will be is probably that either they cannot figure out who the copy is and the comic will contain two Annies going forward, ensuring that Annie will continue to have issues of vying for her father's attention, intermixed with the knowledge that Kat and everyone she knows have undergone character development that makes them closer to her double, and thus distancing herself further from the rest. Alternatively if they determine that one of them is the copy and the copy will have to in some way be forced to no longer exist, and her being a psychopomp in-training will be forced to do the deed, meanwhile seeing the people closest to her see "her" pass away, and the six month of character development will be lost like tears in the rain. Alternatively they could in some way merge, but I think that is too convenient. --- When I read about Loup there was another character from a video game I thought of. However even bringing the character up would be a SPOILER for the game in question. It's a 7 year old game. I will mention it in the next paragraph. --- The character I am reminded of is wheatley from portal2. Both are characters which were purposefully made by humans to be morons and resented that. Both became mad with power once they were given ultimate power within their universe. When Annie met Loup he tried to keep a friendly a demeanor to ensure that he got what he wanted and to make it appear like he was in control of the situation; wheatley attempted to subtly imply the forthcoming murder was sad and he tried to appear cultured. The final comparison, and this is the one that is a speculation, was that wheatley jerry-rigged solutions for how the various tools at his disposal could be used to fulfill his immediate goals without really considering if there was smarter ways to go about it or if his solutions actually resolved the issues(Problem: alarm warning that the place will explode. Solution: turn off the alarm. Problem: the display to show the test chamber number is unable to be accessed. Solution: use wall panels to type out a big out of place digital number). This was understandable somewhat since he had suddenly been given powers beyond his own comprehension. Meanwhile, Loup, I believe, has also been powers beyond his comprehension, and his solutions are probably also jerry-rigged.(Problem: The series of interconnected system of Gillitie forest was too much to handle. Solution: stop all forest dwellers in their tracks, ignoring any possible long term consequences. Problem: The court is searching for Annie. Solution: Create a flesh-and-blood copy of her to keep them distracted, possibly splitting her etherself in the process, ignoring the long terms consequences of there now being two Annies walking around claiming the same personhood.)
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Aura
Junior Member
I'm a ninja!
Posts: 79
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Post by Aura on Nov 26, 2018 21:56:07 GMT
Much more recent. It's the last couple of episodes of "Rascal Does Not Dream of Bunny Senpai" |
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Post by alevice on Dec 1, 2018 0:14:11 GMT
The argument in favor for court annie being the real one for me, is tht she is clearly the one interviewed in the latest break... she has the same look there. Its likely it even happed that same day.
Then again her etheric projection is weird and we havent see her face in the projection.
A weird thing is that annie had definitely longer hair than that before leaing th e coutrt
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Dec 1, 2018 6:12:03 GMT
This conclusion isn't very interesting, but I think the answer might be as simple as "Loup is a god and can do whatever the hell he wants." Yeah, this could just be Loup playing dress-up |
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Post by rafk on Dec 1, 2018 14:29:52 GMT
That last poll option reminded me of the chapter "20 2020 Pennies" in Penny and Aggie. I hadn't thought of that webcomic in years and it is kind of hilarious that 2020 is now the very near, not distant, future, had P&A still been running...
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Post by katiecruel on Dec 3, 2018 18:29:20 GMT
Signed up for a new account to post here and then realized I apparently had one already? Sorry mods for any way I'm being confusing.
Anyways, while there's a lot of gaps here, there's two previously established Coyote powers that are very likely involved, perhaps together. First, there's the soul-extracting power Coyote uses to turn forest residents into totems that can later be implanted into court created bodies. In this situation, after Annie enters the forest Loup takes her soul from her body and sends her body back to the court while he talks to her/manufactures a new body. The main issue is that it's pretty clearly laid out in the past that the court usually creates the bodies to put souls into, but a 6 month timegap and a convoluted trickster plan have a lot of gaps that could be filled by methods for creating a new body. It's hard to tell since we don't know how long it takes for the court to create the bodies it puts forest residents into. Are the bodies as old as they look, or are they using something to basically spit out bodies aged up to the classes they'll join? It's also possible Loup is taking inspiration from Kat, and the body of the Annie we're following is some kind of wood forest robot or something.
The other possiblity is shapeshifting. We know from Coyote's past stories that his shapeshifting abilities are so powerful he is capable of forgetting that he is assuming another identity. So it's not inconceivable that Courtney (Court!Annie) is actually just Loup in an incredibly convincing disguise. The main reason I prefer this theory less is that it doesn't make sense from a conservation of detail level - while Loup's has many incredible powers, I'm fairly certain Coyote didn't have anything to the level of being able to being in multiple places at the same time. So it makes more sense to me that Loup found a way to make a new body than a way to be in two places at once, if we're thinking about things he could do that he's never done before.
Finally, we can pretty much eliminate the possibility of Loup or anyone possessing Annie's old body after extracting her soul from it. We know he's given that power to Renard and can't use it anymore. This means to me that if he is using his soul-extracting power, then he's finally accomplished what Anthony has been trying to do all his life - to separate the fire elemental and the person. I'm just not too sure which half is which, since we just saw Courtney using fire to destroy some shadowmen controlled wood beasts but she also has short hair and is less emotional, attributes associated with her human half. I can go either way on that subject, but the whole duality is so built-in to the plot at this point I can't imagine it not coming up.
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Post by bedinsis on Dec 3, 2018 20:50:05 GMT
I had an idea today that might be too crazy, but: what if the gaps in Loup's knowledge is literally a strength? What i mean is, Coyote purposefully forgot things for the joy of rediscovering them, what if that is not the whole truth and him not being aware of something like his limits are sufficient for him to overcome his limits? E.g. Coyote said that he was unable to create a totem containing a mind; what if him forgetting this fact would be sufficient for him to no longer have this limitation and therefore being able to create a totem containing a mind? Since Coyote(or now Loup) is a being defined by what people believe it stands to reason that belief is important to his essence.
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Post by mturtle7 on Dec 4, 2018 1:18:14 GMT
Signed up for a new account to post here and then realized I apparently had one already? Sorry mods for any way I'm being confusing. Anyways, while there's a lot of gaps here, there's two previously established Coyote powers that are very likely involved, perhaps together. First, there's the soul-extracting power Coyote uses to turn forest residents into totems that can later be implanted into court created bodies. In this situation, after Annie enters the forest Loup takes her soul from her body and sends her body back to the court while he talks to her/manufactures a new body. The main issue is that it's pretty clearly laid out in the past that the court usually creates the bodies to put souls into, but a 6 month timegap and a convoluted trickster plan have a lot of gaps that could be filled by methods for creating a new body. It's hard to tell since we don't know how long it takes for the court to create the bodies it puts forest residents into. Are the bodies as old as they look, or are they using something to basically spit out bodies aged up to the classes they'll join? It's also possible Loup is taking inspiration from Kat, and the body of the Annie we're following is some kind of wood forest robot or something. The other possiblity is shapeshifting. We know from Coyote's past stories that his shapeshifting abilities are so powerful he is capable of forgetting that he is assuming another identity. So it's not inconceivable that Courtney (Court!Annie) is actually just Loup in an incredibly convincing disguise. The main reason I prefer this theory less is that it doesn't make sense from a conservation of detail level - while Loup's has many incredible powers, I'm fairly certain Coyote didn't have anything to the level of being able to being in multiple places at the same time. So it makes more sense to me that Loup found a way to make a new body than a way to be in two places at once, if we're thinking about things he could do that he's never done before. Finally, we can pretty much eliminate the possibility of Loup or anyone possessing Annie's old body after extracting her soul from it. We know he's given that power to Renard and can't use it anymore. This means to me that if he is using his soul-extracting power, then he's finally accomplished what Anthony has been trying to do all his life - to separate the fire elemental and the person. I'm just not too sure which half is which, since we just saw Courtney using fire to destroy some shadowmen controlled wood beasts but she also has short hair and is less emotional, attributes associated with her human half. I can go either way on that subject, but the whole duality is so built-in to the plot at this point I can't imagine it not coming up. Welcome to the forums katiecruel! Helluva first post.
On one hand, I LOVE the idea of Loup just stealing Annie's body away and then replacing it with a new one without her astral form noticing. It's like something a master pickpocket would do, except with entire bodies. On the other hand, I can't quite buy the idea that one of the Annies is completely separated from her fire elemental side. Courtney may be acting a lot calmer than Greenie in this scene (thank you for introducing that naming scheme to me, btw), but earlier we saw them both get pretty angry (at each other, no less), and neither should be able to do that at all without their fire. Plus, they both checked out each other etheric forms, which should have revealed any firey-ness or lack thereof. In the end, I'm still rooting for "timeline split" or "fire split" as the cause of all this. |
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Post by madjack on Dec 4, 2018 1:58:58 GMT
I had an idea today that might be too crazy, but: what if the gaps in Loup's knowledge is literally a strength? What i mean is, Coyote purposefully forgot things for the joy of rediscovering them, what if that is not the whole truth and him not being aware of something like his limits are sufficient for him to overcome his limits? This.. Makes a lot of sense. I think the answer is even simpler than creating a dupe or a totem though. He just.. split her off, keeping the emotive, wild side of her he prized for a long conversation in the forest and sending the self-controlled, stoic aspect of her back. |
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Post by fia on Dec 12, 2018 18:20:24 GMT
Is the page for today [2082] officially discounting a doppelgänger as a possibility?...
My guess is that it is not a doppelgänger because Tom would have thought that was too obvious.
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Post by incendax on Dec 12, 2018 19:06:02 GMT
The answer is obvious.
One copy is for the Psychopomps. The other copy is for Loup (or so he thinks).
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Post by Gotolei on Dec 12, 2018 19:07:43 GMT
To throw fuel on the wildspec fire: back in The Stone, Jones brought up multiple times that she wasn't able to directly see into the ether. "So far."
(Personally I'm still in the camp of it either being a copy job or a ~10/90 spirit split between the two, deliberate by Loup either way)
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Dec 12, 2018 19:53:15 GMT
Is the page for today [2082] officially discounting a doppelgänger as a possibility?... My guess is that it is not a doppelgänger because Tom would have thought that was too obvious. A doppelganger or other shape-shifter would have been the safest choice for "Loup" I think, but it wouldn't be a way for him to show off his powers (except possibly by commanding such a creature to replace Antimony) and it would have been a tacit admission that there was something he couldn't do with the snap of his fingers. He might be willing to admit that he's having some troubles to Antimony in private but he wouldn't want the rest of the Wood (whatever parts that are unfrozen, anyway) to think this was another instance where he couldn't control things properly. Even if "Loup" is still too powerful and unpredictable to successfully challenge and replace a rumor would hurt his ego. Also: It occurs to me that if Antimony was replaced by some sort of creature who naturally mimics and replaces people, then it could possibly "human" better than the real thing in this case. It could play Anthony like a fiddle, for sure, but it still would have to be extremely careful to avoid slip-ups around him. That might explain why Court!Annie keeps her hair short. Disclaimer: It might also mean that Court!Annie is also "real" and is just trying present an image like her younger self for other reasons, though, such as wishing to preserve the relationship she had with her father when she was younger. |
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Post by saardvark on Dec 12, 2018 23:13:25 GMT
The answer is obvious. One copy is for the Psychopomps. The other copy is for Loup (or so he thinks). welcome to the forum! that would be a neat solution for the problem of the Pomps drafting Annie out of the story at some point... the copy!Annie works for the Pomps and the (more?)real one continues @court... |
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Post by magiekarp on Dec 27, 2018 19:19:14 GMT
Signed up for a new account to post here and then realized I apparently had one already? Sorry mods for any way I'm being confusing. Anyways, while there's a lot of gaps here, there's two previously established Coyote powers that are very likely involved, perhaps together. First, there's the soul-extracting power Coyote uses to turn forest residents into totems that can later be implanted into court created bodies. In this situation, after Annie enters the forest Loup takes her soul from her body and sends her body back to the court while he talks to her/manufactures a new body. The main issue is that it's pretty clearly laid out in the past that the court usually creates the bodies to put souls into, but a 6 month timegap and a convoluted trickster plan have a lot of gaps that could be filled by methods for creating a new body. It's hard to tell since we don't know how long it takes for the court to create the bodies it puts forest residents into. Are the bodies as old as they look, or are they using something to basically spit out bodies aged up to the classes they'll join? It's also possible Loup is taking inspiration from Kat, and the body of the Annie we're following is some kind of wood forest robot or something. The other possiblity is shapeshifting. We know from Coyote's past stories that his shapeshifting abilities are so powerful he is capable of forgetting that he is assuming another identity. So it's not inconceivable that Courtney (Court!Annie) is actually just Loup in an incredibly convincing disguise. The main reason I prefer this theory less is that it doesn't make sense from a conservation of detail level - while Loup's has many incredible powers, I'm fairly certain Coyote didn't have anything to the level of being able to being in multiple places at the same time. So it makes more sense to me that Loup found a way to make a new body than a way to be in two places at once, if we're thinking about things he could do that he's never done before. Finally, we can pretty much eliminate the possibility of Loup or anyone possessing Annie's old body after extracting her soul from it. We know he's given that power to Renard and can't use it anymore. This means to me that if he is using his soul-extracting power, then he's finally accomplished what Anthony has been trying to do all his life - to separate the fire elemental and the person. I'm just not too sure which half is which, since we just saw Courtney using fire to destroy some shadowmen controlled wood beasts but she also has short hair and is less emotional, attributes associated with her human half. I can go either way on that subject, but the whole duality is so built-in to the plot at this point I can't imagine it not coming up. Why can't Coyote be in multiple places at the same time? In a previous story, Coyote once described himself to be 2 forms at the same time, in the story he told about the Goose bone, he was both the goose husband and the wife, thus being 2 things at the same time. Note that this is the only time he has mentioned being able to do such a thing and has away this "goose bone" away. There is probably a connection between the two, but I'm not smart enough to find that out. Loup is also a separate entity from Coyote and Ysengrin, thus even if he is unable to be in multiple places at once, there is still a possibility that one of the Annies is Coyote. This is, of course, just speculation and not nearly as well thought out as your, I want to maybe give the theory a second thought, I guess? It is quite interesting tho, since that also rules out a lot of different possibilities and theories. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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