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Post by jda on Oct 12, 2018 16:48:31 GMT
As far as Kat's decorations, I'm pretty sure they're Jeanne's arrow (duh), Alistair's feather, and a representation of everybody's favorite dad (no! not Ysengrin! the other one! NO! Not Rey! The OTHER other one!) Donald Donlan? |
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Post by keef on Oct 12, 2018 18:01:52 GMT
I don't see it, certainly not when looking at it this way:  |
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Post by Per on Oct 12, 2018 18:07:47 GMT
It definitely matches the diagram you linked to. In all the ones I was looking at Bootes was represented more or less differently. Don’t know if this especially means anything, but the shooting star behind Arthur seems to be almost impaling him through the head, sort of like how Ayilu was by Jeanne. Not a shooting star but a line in a constellation. It would be a very abstract impalement. |
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Post by ohthatone on Oct 12, 2018 18:55:45 GMT
Somewhat disconcerting to me is the placement of the bone finger. Exactly over Annie's hair clip, which itself is a symbol of her mother. Maybe symbolizing the psychopomps and their need for Surma/Annie? Edit: Also I think what Annie is holding in her left is the seed Bismuth. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 12, 2018 19:14:28 GMT
More about chatelaines: More applicable stub article on chatelaines. Probably should have explained that the things on a chatelaine are often keys, sometimes handy tools (like a seal, dagger, scissors, pen, coin purse, or even an account book) and sometimes charms representing the particular interests of the family or house, religious iconography, or with no other meaning or use than the charms on a charm bracelet. Women could customize them to show off particular skills or interests. The chatelaine in and of itself is sort of a status symbol or badge of rank, marking a lady as keeper of the house or castle. Looks to me like this Treatise is showing Kat really coming into her own (particularly compared with how she was dressed in the earlier Treatises). She's got Diego's arrow, Anthony and the peacock feather on her chatelaine, representing stuff she's "unlocked." She's even got the moon and the stars on a string (or a chain) but she's also chained to them; she can do a lot of stuff but she's dependent on the Court and the robots for raw materials, labor, and facilities which places expectations on her. Our best guess on the previous feather was that it represents Kat's romantic interest/maturity so it probably means that she's competent at being in a relationship. Contrast all that with how Antimony's dressed in Ys' old outfit. She's got the mojo and she wields some power and authority through Coyote's favor and her friendship with Ysengrin, and later through "Loup," but it's not something she really gained on her own. And Antimony's hair is still short. Tentative interpretation: Kat's really coming into her own. Antimony's lagging a bit in comparison. Renard isn't represented on the chatelaine (where he arguably should be since Kat has ownership of his actions) or anywhere else that I can see. I suppose he just wasn't in the chapter enough. The skeletal finger is pointing to the two in a boat which lends credence to the notion that they are Jeanne and Mr. Green and the finger is Antimony's mediumship which she bargained to the 'pomps so is depicted as external to her. The two spouts are cracking the world which the ants and anthill are on, so they're probably the two trees that "Loup" used to attack the Court. |
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Post by warrl on Oct 12, 2018 19:39:56 GMT
One thing for sure: gravity is weird in this place.  |
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Post by fia on Oct 12, 2018 19:59:53 GMT
I'm sort of suspecting the constellation is Scorpius after all, just at a slight angle; Kat is placed at Dschubba, the forehead, and the star chained to her wrist and the moon is Antares, the anti-Ares for its red hue and occasional proximity to Mars. It may mean Kat has to prepare for war?
The first thing the chain reminded me of are certain 17th-century images I've seen that use chains to represent magnetism. There's also an image in Kircher's Ars Magna Lucis of a man whose body parts are correlated with Zodiac signs, and his wrist is chained to a hand coming out of the sun. In that image, the chain is near 'Messala' (Mashallah ibn Athari, an 8th century Persian Jewish astrologer). Messala argued that conjunctions of planets could affect events on Earth.
Now I don't now if this is a good leap to make, but whether or not we assume the former is an image Tom referenced, the fact that this Treatise shows several large celestial bodies very near each other – at least the Moon and Mars – really does make me think this is intended to represent a conjunction in astrology. But a conjunction of the moon and mars in Scorpio generally means trouble, the mixing of fire and water... sounds about right to me.
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Post by shaihulud on Oct 12, 2018 20:35:41 GMT
Does anyone else think the world below is Mars? Or is that just me?
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Post by Aurelia Verity on Oct 12, 2018 21:55:45 GMT
Regarding the Peacock feather, one theory that I have is that the peacock is a symbol of the Roman Goddess Juno.
Juno fits with Kat in a few ways,
In the most basic of definitions Juno is the goddess of marriage and childbirth. Kat has a history of trying to bring lovers together. She ships Annie with a few people, she has the good sense to leave Smithy and Parley alone when they clearly wish to be and most recently she is working hard on bringing Arthur and Juliette together. As for childbirth, she is working on literally producing bodies for robots who see her as a sort of divine mother figure who can give life and take it away.
Digging into Juno's roles it gets more interesting. Juno is one of the more militarized goddesses in the female Roman pantheon, a quality she seems to have borrowed from Athena in the Greek pantheon. It seems that the Romans connected her patronage of childbirth with military like qualities as many troops are needed to win a war.
From Wikipedia:
"Juno is certainly the divine protectress of the community, who shows both a sovereign and a fertility character, often associated with a military one."
And
“… her connection with the idea of vital force, fullness of vital energy, eternal youthfulness …”
This may be hinting at her role to come, particularly as the conflict between the court and the forest develops. The robots have previously shown willingness to fight for Kat because she gives their lives meaning beyond simple servitude, as things move forward they will likely be willing to die for her. She can bring them closer to being human, throught the bodies she is developing she can give them strength, vitality, energy they previously lacked. Because of this Kat may emerge as a leader within the court but not necessarily part of the official court. Her potential to wield such power may be what causes her to look the way she does in the ether or why Zimmy is scared of her.
Juno is also connected with Janus, the god of beginnings, transitions, passages and endings. He is also:
“gatekeeper of the gates connecting Heaven and Earth and guardian of all passages is particularly related to time and motion. He holds the first place in ritual invocations and prayers, in order to ensure the communication between the worshipper and the gods.” (also from Wikipedia)
Incidentally, Janus is frequently depicted as having two faces. I’m stretching it a bit but I do think that if Kat is Juno then Annie is Janus. Kat is a more sedentary character and Annie is more active.
I wouldn’t put money of this interpretation as I am going off of just a feather and some googling but I just thought it was an interesting parallel to draw.
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Post by mturtle7 on Oct 12, 2018 22:13:11 GMT
Does anyone else think the world below is Mars? Or is that just me? Not just you, don't worry. I also saw as Mars initially (come on, it's red and rocky, it's a planet, what more do you need?), but then i suppose it doesn't make much sense for it to be Mars in this context. More likely it's just supposed to be a barren Earth, hence those two shoots of greenery coming out from a crevice on it.
Alternatively, foreshadowing that Arthur and Juliette are going to go to Mars and terraform it to allow life. #WILDSPEC.
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Post by tustin2121 on Oct 12, 2018 22:56:01 GMT
What Annie is holding is definitely not Coyote's eye. Coyote's eye always has a red/black pupil in it, and when Coyote does magic, his eyes (all of them all over his body) gain many pupils. See here. What Annie is holding is pure white, and also more angular than an eye. Also it's giving off little white embers, it seems. I'd go more with the Seed Bismuth theory. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 12, 2018 23:06:37 GMT
Not 100% satisfied with this theory but the beveling on the tubes looks like a hypodermic needle and I haven't been able to find that feature on any tube-builder burrows. They're sort of organic looking. Two of them go deep into the moon/Court side where we can't see. They probably symbolize "Loup" making paths underground for infiltrating the Court. |
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Post by eddddd on Oct 13, 2018 2:11:20 GMT
if it a symbol of Juno, thats like 4 seperate motherhood/childbirth symbols associated with Kat.
TWIST- thats literal and Kat's gonna get pregnant. By... Paz, I guess. hmm.
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Post by todd on Oct 13, 2018 2:17:01 GMT
Tom, on the comments section : "The story is still going strong and there is plenty of tale left for me to tell" would mean that it is still.on the middle part? I've started to suspect that Loup may not be the real "final antagonist" - more a middle one, with the real opponent being the Court leadership and its goals. We've had hints that whatever the Court's doing, it's in some way harmful to the Forest, maybe even to the etheric world, which is apparently the reason for the conflict between the Court and the Wood. I think that in the aftermath of the solution of the Loup problem, Annie will discover more about the Court's dark secrets - and they'll be even more threatening than Loup, once completed. |
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Post by saardvark on Oct 13, 2018 3:29:10 GMT
I'm sort of suspecting the constellation is Scorpius after all, just at a slight angle; Kat is placed at Dschubba, the forehead, and the star chained to her wrist and the moon is Antares, the anti-Ares for its red hue and occasional proximity to Mars. It may mean Kat has to prepare for war? Now I don't now if this is a good leap to make, but whether or not we assume the former is an image Tom referenced, the fact that this Treatise shows several large celestial bodies very near each other – at least the Moon and Mars – really does make me think this is intended to represent a conjunction in astrology. But a conjunction of the moon and mars in Scorpio generally means trouble, the mixing of fire and water... sounds about right to me. or, since it is *anti*-Ares, she will stop/prevent a war? (I agree, it looks more like Scorpio, tho not a perfect match to it either... Antares should be closer to Kat's cheek). Not so sure the lower planet is Mars tho... ants and vines on Mars, which Juliette & Arthur are leaving? Doesn't seem to fit... |
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Post by Runningflame on Oct 13, 2018 4:25:25 GMT
Me when I saw this page:  It's a feast of symbolism! Y'all have already pointed out most of the things I noticed, so kudos, and no need to repeat things. I will just add that I see a lot of symbols of death and new life in both sides of the image: On Kat's side, the barren planet, the fleeing ants, and Juliette and Arthur escaping--but also the green shoots sprouting from the crack; on Annie's side, a conflagration, the bone-needles, and Jeanne and her lover departing--but also an island of greenery. Given that way of looking at it, I wonder whether the sun is setting or rising? And, of course, the biggest new-life symbol is the hatching egg in the middle. I've never thought that Annie and Kat were going to become enemies, like some keep speculating, but I'd say their poses here (holding the egg together, both smiling at it and past it at each other) really put that idea to rest. They are opposites in some ways, but they love and respect each other, and they will continue to work together to bring new hope out of desperate situations. |
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Post by speedwell on Oct 13, 2018 4:35:44 GMT
Just a few other things of note that I think are significant that I hadn't spotted before as such:
The pointed "organ pipe" thingies are offshore. Could this point to the location of the Court in exile, or to a secret installation, or even to the underwater dorms?
I see the skeleton finger as beckoning Kat.
Given the correspondence of the placement of the couple in the boat with the placement of the escaping Juliette and Arthur, I am guessing the boat couple are our friends Jeanne and Green Elf. Possibly.
This just seems too obvious but I decided to mention it... the whole thing is set up like one of those Tarot decks in which the card reversals are designed as finely as the uprights. And I think the same techniques should be used in "reading" this. Forest for the trees also applies; what meanings and impressions do we get out of the "card" as a whole, its colors, the placements of the elements, geometry, postures (mudras), mythology?
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Post by Runningflame on Oct 13, 2018 4:41:40 GMT
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Post by speedwell on Oct 13, 2018 4:43:36 GMT
if it a symbol of Juno, thats like 4 seperate motherhood/childbirth symbols associated with Kat. TWIST- thats literal and Kat's gonna get pregnant. By... Paz, I guess. hmm. You reminded me of a role-playing game I was in once in which the character I played, a non-human android, and his human partner used nanotechnology and genetic engineering to construct a zygote "from scratch" that was designed to carry both his characteristics and hers and to grow--in the human partner's womb--just like a human fetus and infant, eventually into an adult. We didn't give this any name but "artificial person" in the game, but it occurs to me that "golem" might have been particularly appropriate. "Emeth", the traditional inscription on the golem's forehead that makes it "alive", is usually translated as "truth", and this is correct, but it has a secondary meaning of "objective reality" and thus science. |
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Post by madjack on Oct 13, 2018 7:50:07 GMT
I've started to suspect that Loup may not be the real "final antagonist" - more a middle one, with the real opponent being the Court leadership and its goals. We've had hints that whatever the Court's doing, it's in some way harmful to the Forest, maybe even to the etheric world, which is apparently the reason for the conflict between the Court and the Wood. I think that in the aftermath of the solution of the Loup problem, Annie will discover more about the Court's dark secrets - and they'll be even more threatening than Loup, once completed. I don't know.. I think the real 'final boss' will be to balance or play off the factions against each other, or to help them realise the costs of what each wants are unconscionable. Or perhaps desperate damage control should one side actually succeed in getting what they want. |
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Post by philman on Oct 13, 2018 10:26:16 GMT
I saw the skeletal finger as a representation of this guy and the link with the hairclip kind of follows that same line of representation as well. Also those pointed columns arising around Annie are definitely hypodermic needles (I've worked in hospitals/labs long enough to recognise the distinctive angle of the needle), however one of them looks bone-like, cracked and broken. What this represents I don't know, but it reminds me of the bone-finger like things that Tony had somehow used to impale Annie's soul that time before Zimmy punched him in the face. Also has no-one mentioned what looks like the Court's monorail type system running across the top of the ocean in Annie's half of the image? Most visible when flipping the image upside down. |
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Post by yinglung on Oct 13, 2018 10:56:56 GMT
Also has no-one mentioned what looks like the Court's monorail type system running across the top of the ocean in Annie's half of the image? Most visible when flipping the image upside down. Look around the moon. I doubt it is the monorail system, it seems more like an aura around a pseudo-celestial object. Which is interesting, because the earth has a simple line, the aether has a segmented ring, and the moon has both with a reinforcing segmented inner ring. |
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Post by pyradonis on Oct 13, 2018 11:51:13 GMT
More about chatelaines: More applicable stub article on chatelaines. Probably should have explained that the things on a chatelaine are often keys, sometimes handy tools (like a seal, dagger, scissors, pen, coin purse, or even an account book) and sometimes charms representing the particular interests of the family or house, religious iconography, or with no other meaning or use than the charms on a charm bracelet. Women could customize them to show off particular skills or interests. The chatelaine in and of itself is sort of a status symbol or badge of rank, marking a lady as keeper of the house or castle.
Your link does not work.  |
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Post by pyradonis on Oct 13, 2018 12:04:30 GMT
By the way, I don't think Gunnerkrigg Court is the kind of story that needs a "final antagonist".
You are all much better than me at analyzing the picture, so I will just let a quote from the game Chrono Trigger here, which might be of interest concerning the egg: "Like every egg, it represents a possibility. It may or may not...hatch."
(Incidentally, I might remember it totally wrong, or it might be from a fan translation, since I was not able to find the quote online...)
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 13, 2018 16:47:08 GMT
More about chatelaines: More applicable stub article on chatelaines. Probably should have explained that the things on a chatelaine are often keys, sometimes handy tools (like a seal, dagger, scissors, pen, coin purse, or even an account book) and sometimes charms representing the particular interests of the family or house, religious iconography, or with no other meaning or use than the charms on a charm bracelet. Women could customize them to show off particular skills or interests. The chatelaine in and of itself is sort of a status symbol or badge of rank, marking a lady as keeper of the house or castle. Your link does not work. Thanks, ProBoards ate it completely this time. Link is fixed. |
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Post by netherdan on Oct 13, 2018 20:33:04 GMT
gosh golly I want to quote everybody and give my opinions on every one of you, y'all are fantastic.
To suppress that feeling I will just speculate that the egg represents the need for Annie and Kat to come together to "create life" (not as in procreation but just creation itself).
Kat now knows how to create a body, symbolized by the heart (and judging by Anthony's soul toten in her chain she probably learned Coyote's trick to "catch" a soul. And that Anthony is dead, for now).
Annie is the fire, heat, life. And she's holding something that glows in pure white (meaning perfection in alchemy. A soul maybe? Whose is it? Is it a seed bismuth? The Seed Bismuth? Can it create souls as well as it creates buildings?)
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Post by todd on Oct 14, 2018 0:12:47 GMT
By the way, I don't think Gunnerkrigg Court is the kind of story that needs a "final antagonist". Yes, "final antagonist" isn't the best term, but I still think that the focus of the final phase of the comic isn't going to be Loup but whatever the Court's doing. (Indeed, I won't be too surprised if Loup gets removed from the story in the first few chapters of the next book. I suspect that, before he's written out, though, he'll do and say a few more things that will lead to Annie investigating the Court's purpose.) |
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Post by saardvark on Oct 14, 2018 5:10:46 GMT
I've never thought that Annie and Kat were going to become enemies, like some keep speculating, but I'd say their poses here (holding the egg together, both smiling at it and past it at each other) really put that idea to rest. They are opposites in some ways, but they love and respect each other, and they will continue to work together to bring new hope out of desperate situations. Yes!, and perhaps they symbolize/indicate how the Court & Forest should interact/approach one another; and indeed, more generally, how science/technology/humankind should interact with nature/Gaia - with love and mutual respect. |
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Post by todd on Oct 14, 2018 12:45:09 GMT
Yes!, and perhaps they symbolize/indicate how the Court & Forest should interact/approach one another; and indeed, more generally, how science/technology/humankind should interact with nature/Gaia - with love and mutual respect. Yes. I do think, though, that the big obstacle to peace between the Court and the Forest is the Court's "big project". Whatever it is, the evidence we've had so far indicates that it would have a disastrous effect upon Gilltie Wood and its inhabitants - maybe even destructive - which would have fueled the forest-folk's attacks upon the Court (including Loup's). The forest-folk would have done better to have tried informing the Court about the threat its mystery project would pose to their home, of course, rather than attacking it; unfortunately, as Jones pointed out, they prefer solving disputes with force (or displays of force) rather than by negotiation. It's also likely, unfortunately, that the Court would ignore their protests on the grounds that the sacrifice of a few talking animals and "primitives" like the Anwyn is a small price to pay for the Grand March of Science and Progress and the Pursuit of Knowledge. (And after the latest outbreak of violence from the Forest, I fear that the Court would actually see the potential destruction of Gilltie Wood and its denizens as a side effect of their experiments as a good idea, ridding themselves of their threatening neighbors.) Annie now knows something about this trouble, but her own history with the Court makes it unlikely that she could convince it to abandon its big endeavor; if anything, the Court would be convinced more than ever that she's far too sympathetic towards "the enemy". Her best hope might be to talk to people like her father, Anya, Donald, and Jones, in the hopes that they could approach the Court leadership - but I doubt that the Court leadership would even listen to them. (And, given that the Court has apparently been working on this for several generations, I think it'd be all the more unwilling to give up this project - even more so if it's on the verge of completing it, which it probably is.) |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2018 18:48:15 GMT
Regarding the Peacock feather, one theory that I have is that the peacock is a symbol of the Roman Goddess Juno. Juno fits with Kat in a few ways, Not from Wikipedia: The Vienna Dioscourides (a 6th-century Byzantine illuminated manuscript consisting mainly of a 1st-century military doctor's treatise on medicinal plants) opens with a male peacock -- the folio having been moved, presumably, from its correct position in the Ornithiaka (a paraphrased didactic poem about birds) because someone deemed it fitting of the cover page; the bird's description itself is missing. Ironically, Dioscourides himself thought illustrations of plants misleading at best, insisting that the trained medic must ideally be able to recognize a plant in all its stages of growth. I think the feather might likewise point out Kat's "poster-child" acumen highlighted by the Katurday chapter, contrasting it to the lately rather unfocused Annie, who was even forced to repeat a school year (that only induced further destructive drifting -- see "big dumb giant" page). |
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