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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 17, 2018 7:10:34 GMT
And Antimony goes full bore into "Great Secret" territory, but "Loup" doesn't seem to care. |
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Post by madjack on Sept 17, 2018 7:16:35 GMT
Ys referred to himself as "a useless wolf" on the previous page. Ysengrin can escape from being himself as Loup. I wonder if he hates humans because he had no choice about his origins. They made him the butt of every joke in all the stories he's in. Too early to split cookies? I'd bet this is the reason for Rey's interest in French literature as well, learning about the people who's stories he's basically made from. Looking for ways to grow beyond them too? |
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Post by jda on Sept 17, 2018 7:17:52 GMT
Well, we are going in the "Meta-mode" direction.
If this Story starts talking about the stories from the universe where said Story is only a story about said characters,...
either Deadpool starts narrating, or Loup goes "and did you know there is a place in the ether where THIS story is being narrated?".
Either way, I approve.
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Sept 17, 2018 7:19:09 GMT
Ysengrin is often seen as the butt of the joke that Reynardine started.
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Post by pyradonis on Sept 17, 2018 8:32:17 GMT
Innnteresting.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 17, 2018 8:42:45 GMT
I wonder if he hates humans because he had no choice about his origins. They made him the butt of every joke in all the stories he's in. Too early to split cookies? I'd bet this is the reason for Rey's interest in French literature as well, learning about the people who's stories he's basically made from. Looking for ways to grow beyond them too? There's always the possibility that the GC universe's Ysengrin and Renard are only loosely based on the real legends but yeah it's probably a lock at this point. Whoops, I have mail. What's this?  Ah yes, thanks for keeping me up to date, Proboards. |
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Post by arf on Sept 17, 2018 8:57:32 GMT
Both participants are holding up their ends of the conversation, so far.
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Post by madjack on Sept 17, 2018 9:52:57 GMT
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Post by fia on Sept 17, 2018 11:38:04 GMT
I'm confused as to whe this became a conversation about whether humans are dumb or not. Frankly, if I were Annie, my defense would just be: "BUT KAT"
Also, why should the emphasis here be on humans who can't see the ether? There are so many humans in this story who can.
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Post by fia on Sept 17, 2018 11:43:13 GMT
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Post by pyradonis on Sept 17, 2018 12:24:05 GMT
I am waiting for the part where Loup claims that there are no stories about him yet, so he is free to make his own and shape his own reality.
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Post by intotheether on Sept 17, 2018 12:40:24 GMT
Loup does raise an interesting point here though. In a world where human belief literally shapes reality to its will, how much does it control sentient creatures born of that belief? Are they fixed into the roles they’ve been set, or (as Ysengrin’s subtle changes over time pre-Loup would suggest) do they have some freedom to grow and change as individuals?
I guess what I’m asking is are they merely born from the ether, or controlled by it?
If there is some sort of narrative causality in effect in this universe, I can definitely understand some of Ys’s resentment.
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Post by faiiry on Sept 17, 2018 15:04:29 GMT
Huh - I'm surprised I didn't notice until now that Annie's hair seems to have melted her hairband away.
An inordinate amount of modern fantasy stories - dunno if you could consider GKC "urban fantasy," but I think you could probably make an argument for it - seem to go the route of "Are humans bad? Do humans suck?" I wonder why this is such a popular theme. Maybe humans are just insecure.
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Karretch
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Post by Karretch on Sept 17, 2018 17:00:19 GMT
An inordinate amount of modern fantasy stories - dunno if you could consider GKC "urban fantasy," but I think you could probably make an argument for it - seem to go the route of "Are humans bad? Do humans suck?" I wonder why this is such a popular theme. Maybe humans are just insecure. I think it is partly reaction to growing concerns about how we - not as individuals but the whole - treat the world (environment and animals) and each other recently and within all of known history. Rampant consumerism, unsustainable growth and endless fighting, to name just three. We're past the days where everyone considered themselves as the highest among all life and lords of the planet and steadily we're becoming aware that we are just a small, though powerful, part of a whole that we've neglected. But we're not fully aware, and thus putting these issues into print is one of the oldest ways to get people to think about them. |
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Post by darlos9d on Sept 17, 2018 18:21:18 GMT
An inordinate amount of modern fantasy stories - dunno if you could consider GKC "urban fantasy," but I think you could probably make an argument for it - seem to go the route of "Are humans bad? Do humans suck?" I wonder why this is such a popular theme. Maybe humans are just insecure. An alternate and harsher take: it's a theme that feels critical of people, but is somewhat safe in that it isn't critical of any specific people or social systems. Which I find a little... toothless. Genericizing humanity into "sucks" or "doesn't suck" mostly just seems to be a vehicle for letting people feel like they have some kind of deep, grandiose opinion about civilization. Or, perhaps more functionally, letting characters in your stories feel like they have deep, grandiose opinions. But since it never really tends to address anything specific, I always find it a little boring, I have to say. GC itself might surprise me, but I'm not holding my breath on that front. I'm just here for interesting plot and characters. |
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Post by pyradonis on Sept 17, 2018 19:41:10 GMT
I guess what I’m asking is are they merely born from the ether, or controlled by it? I assume the latter. I might be wrong, but as far as I know, there are no stories about Coyote crossing the ocean to live in Britain, or Ysengrin commanding trees and going insane. Except for Gunnerkrigg Court of course. |
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Post by warrl on Sept 17, 2018 22:37:15 GMT
I guess what I’m asking is are they merely born from the ether, or controlled by it? I assume the latter. I might be wrong, but as far as I know, there are no stories about Coyote crossing the ocean to live in Britain, or Ysengrin commanding trees and going insane. Except for Gunnerkrigg Court of course. Or about Ysengrin and Reynardine - who are either French or Belgian-French in origin - moving to Britain. (On the other hand, there ARE stories - albeit of recent origin - about octopuses in the forest.) |
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Sept 18, 2018 7:21:05 GMT
I assume the latter. I might be wrong, but as far as I know, there are no stories about Coyote crossing the ocean to live in Britain, or Ysengrin commanding trees and going insane. Except for Gunnerkrigg Court of course. Or about Ysengrin and Reynardine - who are either French or Belgian-French in origin - moving to Britain. (On the other hand, there ARE stories - albeit of recent origin - about octopuses in the forest.) |
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Sept 18, 2018 7:43:09 GMT
I'm confused as to whe this became a conversation about whether humans are dumb or not. Frankly, if I were Annie, my defense would just be: "BUT KAT" Also, why should the emphasis here be on humans who can't see the ether? There are so many humans in this story who can. Not "dumb", but "worth caring about". The main debate right now is "why should I get Coyote's gifts for you?" aka "why should I allow you to have infinite power?" But Annie has already established her argument that Loup is neither trustworthy nor has enough empathy to deserve those things, so Loup broadened the debate to the more overarching one: can humans really be trusted more than him? That's why he's focusing on regular humans, because he's arguing against the masses in an attempt to appeal to her Fire side. He'll probably transition the topic of human stories about Ys into a moral argument next, because that's the logical conclusion to take this. ie it's not Ys's fault he's pathetic, it's the horrible humans. Oh and also all these other things they do. But I don't think he intends to actually convince her, just plant seeds of suspicion (and also set up some kind of magic collateral before she leaves). He likely wants her to investigate what the Court is doing with the aether. Not for him, but to satisfy her own suspicions. And then, in Loup's ideal world, she'd come to the conclusion that the Court is indeed way worse than he is and defect with the goods. |
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Post by alevice on Sept 18, 2018 13:52:51 GMT
Conaidering the blackmailing before, i'm not certain Loup is playing the long game, juat throwing to see what sticks to have Annie get "persuaded"
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Post by fia on Sept 18, 2018 16:27:18 GMT
I'm confused as to whe this became a conversation about whether humans are dumb or not. Frankly, if I were Annie, my defense would just be: "BUT KAT" Also, why should the emphasis here be on humans who can't see the ether? There are so many humans in this story who can. Not "dumb", but "worth caring about". The main debate right now is "why should I get Coyote's gifts for you?" aka "why should I allow you to have infinite power?" But Annie has already established her argument that Loup is neither trustworthy nor has enough empathy to deserve those things, so Loup broadened the debate to the more overarching one: can humans really be trusted more than him? That's why he's focusing on regular humans, because he's arguing against the masses in an attempt to appeal to her Fire side. He'll probably transition the topic of human stories about Ys into a moral argument next, because that's the logical conclusion to take this. ie it's not Ys's fault he's pathetic, it's the horrible humans. Oh and also all these other things they do. But I don't think he intends to actually convince her, just plant seeds of suspicion Yes yes, I get all of that, thanks. Take my comment as more of a rhetorical confusion (skepticism about why Loup thinks this is at all a legitimate defense of or diversion from his horribleness). I don't get why Annie is indulging him in this. Why, indeed, is the narrative indulging him? This may also be my first time wondering why Tom is going this route. I feel a little underestimated as an audience member here... I was hoping Loup would be a cleverer villain. |
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Post by todd on Sept 18, 2018 17:13:11 GMT
I don't get why Annie is indulging him in this. I think that she's been caught off balance. She was expecting to meet Ysengrin - Ysengrin driven madder than usual with Coyote's powers, but still essentially Ysengrin. Instead, she's encountering an entirely different entity, one who's almost impossible to reason with, who's practically the embodiment of unreason. She still has enough spirit left to refuse to submit to him, but she has no idea - at least, so far - how to handle him, with the result that Loup has taken control of the conversation throughout (or nearly all the time). The ground's been pulled out from under her feet, her plan failed - and Loup's given her no time to think of a Plan B. (One thing he's gotten from Coyote is the ability to control the conversation, something that Coyote frequently showed as well - ignoring whatever the other person said when it wasn't something he wanted to hear, and often barely giving them the opportunity to speak.) |
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Post by OGRuddawg on Sept 18, 2018 21:32:51 GMT
I'm confused as to whe this became a conversation about whether humans are dumb or not. Frankly, if I were Annie, my defense would just be: "BUT KAT" Also, why should the emphasis here be on humans who can't see the ether? There are so many humans in this story who can. This might be Loup representing some of the generalizations that a lot of the forest creatures might have. It's basically anti-humanism, and it seems Loup subscribes to that particular view of humanity. Coyote chose to essentially "play dumb" because not being omnipotent was more entertaining. Loup seems to be purposefully ignoring humans' relatively low average levels of etheric power in hopes of keeping Annie in the forest. She isn't having any of it, though. For a supposed god character, Loup has more overt negative qualities than either Coyote or Ysengrin, and is a lot more pushy about getting his way. |
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Post by Runningflame on Sept 19, 2018 15:02:08 GMT
I feel a little underestimated as an audience member here... I was hoping Loup would be a cleverer villain. Your feelings are valid. From my perspective, though, Loup is a challenge not because he's clever but because he's a loose cannon. In a way, it would be easier to deal with him if he were clever. They say (I don't know how truthfully) that even expert sword fighters can be wounded by someone flailing about unpredictably... and when your opponent has god-level powers, look out. |
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Post by fia on Sept 19, 2018 21:44:44 GMT
I feel a little underestimated as an audience member here... I was hoping Loup would be a cleverer villain. Your feelings are valid. From my perspective, though, Loup is a challenge not because he's clever but because he's a loose cannon. In a way, it would be easier to deal with him if he were clever. They say (I don't know how truthfully) that even expert sword fighters can be wounded by someone flailing about unpredictably... and when your opponent has god-level powers, look out. Fair enough! I do acknowledge this interpretation. Maybe I was still too clingy to the idea of the Coyote, trickstery villain. |
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Post by pyradonis on Sept 21, 2018 14:57:56 GMT
I feel a little underestimated as an audience member here... I was hoping Loup would be a cleverer villain. Your feelings are valid. From my perspective, though, Loup is a challenge not because he's clever but because he's a loose cannon. In a way, it would be easier to deal with him if he were clever. They say (I don't know how truthfully) that even expert sword fighters can be wounded by someone flailing about unpredictably... and when your opponent has god-level powers, look out. Which reminds of a chess match between an experienced player and someone who knew no more than the basic rules...but the experienced player thought, the other one was good at chess as well, and despaired trying to figure out his opponent's (non-existing) strategy, and lost a lot of pieces because he started making mistakes in his confusion. |
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Post by Runningflame on Sept 21, 2018 20:17:28 GMT
Your feelings are valid. From my perspective, though, Loup is a challenge not because he's clever but because he's a loose cannon. In a way, it would be easier to deal with him if he were clever. They say (I don't know how truthfully) that even expert sword fighters can be wounded by someone flailing about unpredictably... and when your opponent has god-level powers, look out. Which reminds of a chess match between an experienced player and someone who knew no more than the basic rules...but the experienced player thought, the other one was good at chess as well, and despaired trying to figure out his opponent's (non-existing) strategy, and lost a lot of pieces because he started making mistakes in his confusion. Hm, yes, that makes sense. I'm no chess expert, but I can imagine that against a good player you have to play somewhat aggressively, taking risks and making sacrifices; whereas against a mediocre player, the best strategy may be to play defense and let them beat themselves. |
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