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Post by Casey on Aug 2, 2009 15:37:18 GMT
There was a SKANG sound effect and a visible striking impact. And Annie told Parley that she saw Jones deflect the sword with her face, and Parley said "yeah, probably".
Jones deflected that sword with her face.
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Post by bisected8 on Aug 2, 2009 15:50:16 GMT
1. That doesn't mean Parley's right.
2. I'm not saying she didn't, I'm just arguing it doesn't mean she's got superpowers. Here's a story;
One day I was watcing a swordfighting demonstration at a local fete. Everyone was astounded when someone blocked a stroke with their bare hand. After the fight he demonstrated how he did it; a piece of metal inside the glove he was wearing. Then he proceeded to deflect a strike with his bare hands (no gloves) again, this time he parried it by slapping the flat of the sword (although I suspect the guy swinging it was helping to some degree). Finally he did it one last time and didn't explain how.
There are plenty of perfectly mundane ways to deflect a sword unarmed. Even with your face.
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Post by Casey on Aug 2, 2009 16:08:54 GMT
I'm a rapier fighter in the SCA, I know all about open handed sword defence. But your story is about deflecting a sword with your hand, and that is not evidence for the conclusion that therefore there are perfectly mundane ways to deflect a sword WITH YOUR FACE. That just doesn't logically follow.
This is what happens when people just want to make arguments instead of looking at the straight facts. She deflected the EDGE of the sword with her CHEEK and it went SKANG. There's no wiggle room there.
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Post by bisected8 on Aug 2, 2009 16:23:10 GMT
That's what they said about Yuri Geller.
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Post by Jiminiminy on Aug 2, 2009 17:34:13 GMT
'Remember kids, if you drink all of your milk, your bones will be strong enough to deflect blows from a sword!"
Reason enough to get all of your daily amount of calcium. Although I can't really offer any advice as to how, exactly, Jones managed to deflect the blow, it would be possible to deflect a longer blade in a horizontal slice with your face if you knew what you were doing.
If you look at how the Zygomatic Process is shaped, it is an 'L' like protrusion that consists mainly of the Zygomatic bone, although also a few other contributors. The case presented, in which Elgamore was swinging some form of hand-and-a-half sword, if the opponent tilted their head on an angle, coupled with a similar idea in their body, the process would become a ridge, rather than a simple obstruction. Since the ends of longswords generally don't carry much mass behind them, more so lethal speed and momentum, if one was quick enough to position their body in such a way that their cheekbone was on about an eighty degree angle, the blade would be directed by the smooth outcrop, sending the momentum upwards on an opposing angle instead of sideways. While not exactly useful on its own, if one were to follow up with 'catching' the sword, like Jones did, utilizing the force behind it now at a disadvantage to the previous user, the swordsman would be:
A) Off balance slightly. B) Probably a little unnerved. C) Past the point at which he can recover easily, which follows A somewhat.
If you knew how to manipulate the swinging motion well enough, you could use your own body to transfer the weapon from a Class 3 lever to a Class 1, which would effectively take the weapon out of the other's hand, and bring it around to your own.
This wouldn't work for shorter blades because there is less loss of force over the distance to the fulcrum, and it'd probably still just take of a good chunk of your face. And it might not be too great to try on a two-hander either, since there's more force behind it.
If a person knew exactly what they were doing, and had little want for other methods, what Jones did would be entirely possible, just incredibly difficult, probably pretty dumb to try, and not be good on your face. Now go out and tell everyone that they too, can deflect and disarm a sword with their face.
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Post by Casey on Aug 2, 2009 17:54:35 GMT
There are plenty of perfectly mundane ways to deflect a sword unarmed. Even with your face. If a person knew exactly what they were doing, and had little want for other methods, what Jones did would be entirely possible Right, everyone's an authority on swordsmanship. Yeah, well this line of conversation has gone too far into the realm of real-world fantasy, so I'm checking out of it.
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four
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Post by four on Aug 3, 2009 7:10:56 GMT
The forboding prediction by Tom? Boxbot's on the trip.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 3, 2009 8:59:02 GMT
If you don't believe me, go stand on your bed with your feet apart, then move them together. You'll sink in noticeably farther in the second case. Jones may be a robot/alien/superhuman/cyborg/whatever you like, but if she is, she weighs about as much as a regular human. I like your physics-based approach but check out the length of Jones' skirt in previous comics. Use that as a benchmark to guesstimate about how far she must have sunk into the bed. The distance from the sole of her shoes to the hem of her skirt is roughly equal to the height of her head plus hair. That means she's sunken in about as deep as the first line of the pillow fold-marks. Tough to say without knowing how tall she is but I eyeball that as at least nine inches of sinkage, maybe more like twelve. Now, normally even if your feet are together the soles of your shoes spread your weight over the same amount of area, but on a bed that weight is concentrated on fewer springs so you do sink in deeper than if your legs are apart. Everyone else with their feet apart is sunk in less than three inches, as we can still see the tops of their shoes. I'm thinking that Jones' mass must be at the absolute minimum twice normal, and that's assuming the springs are cheap ones that don't resist more in response to increased weight. The sheer depth suggests the springs may have collapsed as much as they're able to and she's resting on the frame so she may weigh much more. True, this is a comic and either Jones or the bed could be magical and physics-defying. or maybe just drawn goofy, but what we're looking at is very abnormal even though her feet are together and concentrating her weight. Unless there's magic afoot or she teleported into a hole in the mattress I think we've gotta speculate she's sunk in halfway to the floor. Convenient link: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=575
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Post by pepoluan on Aug 3, 2009 13:15:55 GMT
The relative height of Annie and Jones remains the same, though. Compare [584:3] and [587:3]
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Post by mudmaniac on Aug 3, 2009 16:49:45 GMT
Could it be that Jones is the victim of a curse? one that froze the expression on her face. Additionally makes it impervious to damage.
Maybe out of a foolish desire for ageless beauty...
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 3, 2009 20:53:51 GMT
The relative height of Annie and Jones remains the same, though. Agreed. We were discussing that in the thread for that comic and I think the sizes of the characters in that panel are slightly off relative to each other. It's a comic, so that happens sometimes. However, Tom went out of his way to include the points of reference that I mentioned earlier when he didn't have to. It's like he kindly put Jones on a scale for us.
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Post by Per on Aug 3, 2009 21:21:15 GMT
Has it been mentioned that you'll sink deeper into the bed in the middle simply because you're further from the frame? I'm a bit puzzled by this discussion since it never seemed odd to me that things looked as they did, and I suspect Tom might feel roughly the same.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 3, 2009 21:21:17 GMT
Well they wanted to have her in the photo. Having a teacher or other staff member in it would be a bit strange... I keep meaning to reply to this idea but forgetting... If Jones is a GC-version of the mythic Galatea then we can expect that she'd get more than her share of romantic attention from the opposite sex, even when they know it won't be returned. It wouldn't be unusual at all for a healthy young Eggers to want to include such a person in a class photo, even if she has no direct relation to his class.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 3, 2009 21:33:08 GMT
Has it been mentioned that you'll sink deeper into the bed in the middle simply because you're further from the frame? I'm a bit puzzled by this discussion since it never seemed odd to me that things looked as they did, and I suspect Tom might feel roughly the same. That depends on the construction of the bed. The non-Jones characters on the bed seem to be sunk in to a pretty uniform depth which implies a uniform support below the springs. If the mattress was supported only at the edges like a cot I'd expect to see all the people tilting toward the center of the bed. Sure, that level of realism is a lot to expect from a comic but if everyone else is simplified then why is Jones a big exception?
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Post by Mezzaphor on Aug 4, 2009 22:16:23 GMT
'Remember kids, if you drink all of your milk, your bones will be strong enough to deflect blows from a sword!" Reason enough to get all of your daily amount of calcium. Although I can't really offer any advice as to how, exactly, Jones managed to deflect the blow, it would be possible to deflect a longer blade in a horizontal slice with your face if you knew what you were doing. If you look at how the Zygomatic Process is shaped, it is an 'L' like protrusion that consists mainly of the Zygomatic bone, although also a few other contributors. The case presented, in which Elgamore was swinging some form of hand-and-a-half sword, if the opponent tilted their head on an angle, coupled with a similar idea in their body, the process would become a ridge, rather than a simple obstruction. Since the ends of longswords generally don't carry much mass behind them, more so lethal speed and momentum, if one was quick enough to position their body in such a way that their cheekbone was on about an eighty degree angle, the blade would be directed by the smooth outcrop, sending the momentum upwards on an opposing angle instead of sideways. While not exactly useful on its own, if one were to follow up with 'catching' the sword, like Jones did, utilizing the force behind it now at a disadvantage to the previous user, the swordsman would be: A) Off balance slightly. B) Probably a little unnerved. C) Past the point at which he can recover easily, which follows A somewhat. If you knew how to manipulate the swinging motion well enough, you could use your own body to transfer the weapon from a Class 3 lever to a Class 1, which would effectively take the weapon out of the other's hand, and bring it around to your own. This wouldn't work for shorter blades because there is less loss of force over the distance to the fulcrum, and it'd probably still just take of a good chunk of your face. And it might not be too great to try on a two-hander either, since there's more force behind it. If a person knew exactly what they were doing, and had little want for other methods, what Jones did would be entirely possible, just incredibly difficult, probably pretty dumb to try, and not be good on your face. Now go out and tell everyone that they too, can deflect and disarm a sword with their face. That's pretty cool. What do you think caused that light to arc off her face where the sword hit?
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Post by warrl on Aug 6, 2009 3:53:27 GMT
And yes, by explaining everything, Casey has effectively ended GC's existence. Now something weirder will take its place. No, that already happened. At least twice.
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Post by xenophonhendrix on Aug 26, 2009 7:17:05 GMT
Zimmy has eye gunk. Jack has developed eye gunk.
Zimmy is slovenly. Jack has become slovenly.
Reynardine dislikes Zimmy. Reynardine dislikes Jack.
Hypothesis: some people are more affected by whatever it is Zimmy can see than are others. Jack is one of the unlucky ones.
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unctuous
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doesn't usually get such compliments
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Post by unctuous on Aug 27, 2009 3:45:21 GMT
I'm thinking about the parallel structure between the hospital scene and the forest scene in Chapter 8. Did anyone else address it? I didn't think so, but I could be forgetting, as it's been a while...
Surma asks Annie "Did you cut yourself?" immediately after the glass breaks, then says that if not, it's "nothing to be concerned about." Later, Annie cuts her finger due to feeling responsible for cleaning up, but doesn't mention it aloud; there's a panel closely depicting her blood being absorbed into the water without a trace.
It's mentioned that Annie feels responsible for Robot, which leads ultimately to her falling and being cut (broken?). There's also a panel in the forest scene to closely show blood being absorbed into the forest floor. Since Jeanne is presumably very good with a sword, she could easily have done more severe damage - did she intend only to draw blood with the first strike? Jeanne is depicted in cover pages as being placed between the Wood and Court, so I presume she had some sort of motive...
It seems like the parallel structure of the chapter implies that Annie's blood has some special significance and that Surma knew it beforehand due perhaps to having the same quality. Does it link her to places where it's spilled, or cause part of her to remain there (hence "broken," since Annie compares herself to the glass)? Maybe that's why the cut on her etheric face never heals?
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Post by Casey on Aug 27, 2009 4:18:14 GMT
A couple of things in response:
Firstly, the page you refer to is one that I have always looked upon as an expression of Annie's fundamental view of herself in her world: She feels that things are her fault/responsibility and that she is obligated to take care of it herself. I think it was presented in Ch 8 as a metaphor for her feeling that both the situation with Robot, and later the situation between the Court and the Forest that her actions caused, are her responsibility to fix. I also think that it's an indication that she recognizes that she could/will be hurt in the process (hence the cut finger) but she isn't going to let anyone know because she feels responsible and therefore must deal with it herself.
When you think about it, you see this play out again and again in her actions. It brings us backwards to Ch. 6, where she openly and directly blames herself for her father's disappearance, stating that she thinks she must have done something to displease him and make him not want to have anything to do with her anymore. It can also bring us forwards, to her relationship with Mort, where she bristles at the idea of being "tied" to anyone (n.b.: notice that the very next chapter is titled "Ties"...) and furthermore, more significantly, we learn that Annie felt responsible for delivering her own mother to the Afterlife when no one else will.
Clearly, this is a girl who carries the weight of the world on her shoulders. There are two kinds of mild mental disease, according to one of my favorite books, "The Road Less Traveled": neurosis, wherein a person does not take responsibility for things that actually are their responsibility; and character disorder, wherein a person takes responsibility for things that in fact are NOT their responsibility, in effect blaming themselves for things that are out of their control or have nothing to do with themselves. Annie is a classic case of the latter. And it is not uncommon for children whose parents are gone all the time and/or do not show affection (Anthony) to think that it must be something they (the child) have done wrong to warrant such treatment. Because children think their parents are perfect, they cannot imagine that their parents are doing something wrong, which only leaves the possibility in their minds that they, the child, have done something wrong. Tom is absolutely brilliant in his portrayal of this in the character of Annie.
So back to the subject at hand. Yes I too believe that we are meant to draw a direct parallel between the hospital scene and the scene down in the ravine. But not for the purpose of making us think there is something special about Annie's blood, as you suggest. Rather, I think the purpose of the parallel is to show us how once again Annie feels, just as she did as a child in the hospital, that what's happening around her is her fault/responsibility, and she alone must try to make it right.
On a final note, I'm pretty sure that the etheric cut on Annie's face has healed. It only ever bled when we saw it through Zimmy's enhancement in "Dobranoc, Gamma". I believe that what you're seeing now is the scar from the cut. It's an angry red scar, but, I don't think we're meant to believe that it's still an open bleeding wound. I of course could be completely wrong about that though.
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dario
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Post by dario on Aug 27, 2009 5:43:00 GMT
Surma was a Psychopomp
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sz
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Post by sz on Aug 27, 2009 6:00:02 GMT
Kat is the next Dragonslayer. >
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Post by cripplerking on Aug 28, 2009 1:09:24 GMT
I bet Jones is a homunculus, created using etheric means and technology as an early collaboration of the Court ("to become god") before Coyote split it. Being half and half, she holds no allegiance to either side, and by predating Coyote, he doesn't know what she is, as Reynardine said.
I think I'll also wildly speculate that Anthony is also a homunculus, hence his emotionless features. Antimony's biological father is the man Reynardine possessed, and as a side effect of his possession, Surma was rendered mortally ill from Antimony's birth. This of course, raises the question of how Surma wound up with Anthony, but that was always there, considering we've never seen any interaction between the two.
Ah, and one more minor note: I noticed the suicide fairies repeatedly caled Gunnerkrigg "Gunner's Crag". Perhaps this has to do with the artilleryman Jones mentioned in the simulation?
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Post by Seth Thresher on Aug 28, 2009 3:09:58 GMT
Ah, and one more minor note: I noticed the suicide fairies repeatedly caled Gunnerkrigg "Gunner's Crag". Perhaps this has to do with the artilleryman Jones mentioned in the simulation? Everything else aside as interesting speculation, I think this one is a pretty safe bet. From the playing around with some translation stuff, I've found that artilleryman is roughly on par with gunner, though this might have been common knowledge and I only just found out but that's cool too ^^;; That, plus the recent exposition we've been getting on the significance of Sir Young, I think that the name Gunnerkrigg/Gunner's Crag are intimately with him, the identity of the court, and the wood/court seperation.
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 29, 2009 5:56:00 GMT
Blinker stone once belonged to Jeanne. Muut was sure she cannot cross the river, but she did, after Annie got a trinket. But then, blinker stone allows sort of spirit travel... The same is the reason why she bothered to do it at all -- Antimony attracted Jeanne's interest as the new owner of her stone.
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Post by Casey on Aug 29, 2009 6:18:41 GMT
The idea that the presence of the blinker stone made it possible for Jeanne to cross is brilliant, and I can't think of any time that someone had suggested it before. No idea if it's right or not, but it's a great speculation.
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Aug 29, 2009 20:01:15 GMT
I actually have been wondering if she didn't cross the river at all. If everyone insists that she can't, maybe she didn't. Maybe it was Annie, in spirit form, who crossed the river to her, and then fell back into her body in surprise when she was cut and Kat arrived.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Aug 29, 2009 20:24:39 GMT
It's a nice idea but in #142 we see the fairies next to Annie still.
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unctuous
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doesn't usually get such compliments
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Post by unctuous on Sept 7, 2009 22:14:58 GMT
Ahaha, I'd say we'd have to agree to disagree about the motivations behind her actions, but I agree with you fully. It just seemed that extra attention was called to her physical injuries and the importance of them, whereas her character traits are prevalent in all of her behavior (which, I also agree, is excellent characterization). On a final note, I'm pretty sure that the etheric cut on Annie's face has healed. That bit, though, I'd disagree with, since in a later page an author's note calls it a cut rather than a scar, and its appearance hasn't changed. (I just came across it today while looking for something related to the most recent page, I'm not some crazy lady who arbitrarily memorizes author's notes! This I vow!)
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guyy
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Post by guyy on Sept 7, 2009 22:54:46 GMT
The distance from the sole of her shoes to the hem of her skirt is roughly equal to the height of her head plus hair. That means she's sunken in about as deep as the first line of the pillow fold-marks. Tough to say without knowing how tall she is but I eyeball that as at least nine inches of sinkage, maybe more like twelve. I don't know...I'm inclined to think this is an illusion, or that it's just not drawn absolutely perfectly. On the previous page (at the bottom), you can see that Jones is about one head-height taller than Annie; then on the "bed page", she is about half a head-height taller. That couldn't be a difference of more than 5 or 6 inches, unless she has a giant head. And her height relative to Smitty and Parley doesn't change by any noticeable amount. So, I think here we've overanalyzed to the point where our conclusions aren't even consistent with themselves. Who knows? Maybe Parley's bed has a broken spring, and Jones landed on it. A single image of someone's feet appearing to sink oddly far into a bed isn't much to go on. Besides, she could still be a cyborg, she just has to be normal weight. (If she was really heavy, the other characters would probably notice she walks very strangely...)
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Post by Rasselas on Sept 19, 2009 12:46:17 GMT
New wildspec: What if Hyland Sr. was the "young man" that Reynardine possessed, and thus killed?
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