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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 6, 2009 11:01:10 GMT
I'm thinking Parley's powers plus Smitty's powers equals future deus ex machina effect someday when the plot looks impossibly tangled.
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zylaa
New Member
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Post by zylaa on Jul 6, 2009 15:09:11 GMT
I'm thinking Parley's powers plus Smitty's powers equals future deus ex machina effect someday when the plot looks impossibly tangled. "Smitty! We need your powers to clean up the tangled plot threads! Just stand in all the plot-relevant places around the school." I dunno about that, though. Deus ex machina not really, since that's more like an unannounced, not-foreshadowed plot device. I'm sure their powers will come into play at some point, of course. Plus, Tom said (somewhere) that he never introduces a plot question without having the resolution planned.
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Post by Ulysses on Jul 6, 2009 18:36:50 GMT
I think you're talking more about 'peripeteia' than 'deus ex machina'. Peripeteia is where the situation changes because of something that was there all along e.g. the locket Horcrux in HP book 7 was introduced in HP book 5 (I can't stop being nerdy at the moment, sorry). Deus ex machina is the situation changing because of something completely out of the blue - in the original Greek plays it literally was God from the Machine (backstage) because when the plot seemed hopelessly messy and stupid a god would appear from nowhere and fix it or, more likely in Greek plays, make it worse.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jul 6, 2009 21:47:28 GMT
As I mentioned elsewhere, the Court probably might choose them over Annie in any case. Gunnerkrigg seems to place a high value on humorous eccentricity, judging from such cases as Dr. Disaster's Spacemonaut classes, a comically inept robot staff, and hiding robot parts behind a door labeled with a statement that no robot parts are behind that door. So the Court might prefer a couple of people with an "over-the-top" comedic tone over the far more serious and understated Annie. I assumed that the "NO" part of the sign was the Robots' doing, not the human members of the Court. It would fit with them labeling their entrance as "Boring Door". My suspicion is that the Court would prefer to have more competent robots, but with Diego gone, there's no one who can fix their brains.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 7, 2009 10:59:59 GMT
I think you're talking more about 'peripeteia' than 'deus ex machina'. You guys might be right. I'll suspend judgment on which term is better but I am expecting more of a sand-bagging related to their combined powers than something that's been spelled out so far. In other words I wildly speculate we'll see less "gun hanging on wall" and more "the planet Earth is in grave peril and our only hope is to lock Parley and Smit in the broom closet, crank the Barry White music, and pray everything somehow gets sorted out."
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Post by bisected8 on Jul 7, 2009 14:42:35 GMT
I thought we'd just established that Parley and Smit are no longer closet or locked door compatible?
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qmarx
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by qmarx on Jul 7, 2009 23:08:36 GMT
The big bad? Has to be somebody we don't expect...
so, let me spin the wheel of unlikely characters. flapflapflapflap flapflap flap... flap
DING!
Annie's mother is the true villain. Her powers made her too strong to be taken by a psychopomp, and she was so evil that hell itself spit her back out.
Is it any coincidence that "Surma the Medium" is a perfect anagram for "Hurt Maimed Muse?"
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Post by Rasselas on Jul 9, 2009 18:46:17 GMT
Thinking back on the last few pages, I have a few observations. Firstly, I haven't seen this mentioned much, but - the NOSE. Diego's nose, and then Donald Donlan's nose, and Kat's slightly biggish nose - clearly there's a genetic tie there. I know we've all inferred it from their skills with machinery, and the D's are telling too, but I didn't see anyone mention the nose connection. (EDIT: I just realized that this means that Diego had children, or at least some relative of his had kids. Was it with Jeanne or someone else?) It's wonderful how we have multiple generations to follow. The current one, Annie and Kat and the others, the previous one with Surma and others, and the ancient one, with Diego and Jeanne and others. Very intriguing. Furthermore, Jeanne. I saw someone mention how she might've been a medium. It occurs to me that she really might be, because I recalled that Annie had to take her own mother back into the afterlife. So a being who has nobody else to help her cross, maybe she's a medium too. However, this only opens up the question of what it is that makes a medium unable to cross without another medium to guide her? Also, this would make Jeanne the predecessor of Surma and Annie. However, what I'm hoping for is that Jeanne was some strange android experiment of Diego's, his step-daughter made of ether, human and robot that went horribly wrong. Since she was an artificial creature, there is no psychopomp to guide her, but she had enough of the etheric and human in her to require guidance to the other side. However, I prefer that mediums are there to resolve previous conflicts, rather than guide strange creatures over. Still, when there was a conflict of jurisdiction previously, Annie was called in. Then again, that was because the boy was afraid and they couldn't reach him, not because of the conflict itself. (EDIT: If Jeanne was a medium and had a child with Diego, maybe the same rules would've applied to her as to Surma and Annie. However, if she was the first medium, perhaps it wouldn't have been known, and by the time Jeanne died, her child might've been taken away from her and she was stranded forever.)
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Post by pepoluan on Jul 10, 2009 17:59:35 GMT
gosh golly! Reynardine will takeover some boy's body, and become Annie's boyfriend!
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Jul 13, 2009 14:29:51 GMT
Hmm. Here's some dart-throwing. Ysengrin will ultimately try to harm or kill Coyote, and might succeed.
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Post by Tenebrais on Jul 13, 2009 17:18:44 GMT
Hmm. Here's some dart-throwing. Ysengrin will ultimately try to harm or kill Coyote, and might succeed. That's quite a long shot. Ysengrin reveres Coyote, and Coyote's too neutral to really try to force Y to get something he wouldn't do (which is, as far as I could tell, the only real reason he'd betray him). On the other hand, I could imagine that Coyote would try to stop Ysengrin going too far, and possibly fail to.
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Jul 13, 2009 19:09:03 GMT
Hmm. Here's some dart-throwing. Ysengrin will ultimately try to harm or kill Coyote, and might succeed. That's quite a long shot. Ysengrin reveres Coyote, and Coyote's too neutral to really try to force Y to get something he wouldn't do (which is, as far as I could tell, the only real reason he'd betray him). On the other hand, I could imagine that Coyote would try to stop Ysengrin going too far, and possibly fail to. Here's why I think it: right now, it's been fairly firmly established that Ysengrin loves Coyote. We also know from earlier dialogue and from their mythical predecessors that Ysengrin is not a fan of Reynard. And yet, Reynard is the one that Coyote keeps seeking out to give powers to, wants to free from imprisonment, etc. Ysengrin, on the other hand, gets beaten to the point of bleeding for getting a little too stabby on Coyote's behalf and mocked openly by Coyote in front of Annie. (And furthermore Coyote orders him to be nice to Annie and follow her direction at least to the extent of guiding her into the forest.) He's mentioned as an afterthought when Coyote tells the story of his arrival in the forest. All this, despite him practically running the place now, apparently. The short version is: Coyote doesn't treat Ysengrin very well, and rubs his nose int hat fact from time to time. With a personality as volatile as Ysenrgin's, there must be some kind of resentment there. It seems likely there will be some kind of dramatic payoff of that at some point in the future. How that will play out, of course, mere speculation.
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Post by Casey on Jul 13, 2009 19:55:44 GMT
You may be right, and I'm not saying that you're wrong. But. The reason Coyote kept offering powers to Renard was because Renard wouldn't take them. Ysengrin on the other hand took the powers that Coyote offered (power over the trees) the first chance he had. So it's a bit misleading to say that Coyote favored Renard over Ysengrin because he keeps offering him powers. I'm sure he'd keep offering Ysengrin powers too if he had turned them down. Not that Ysengrin would ever turn down power.
Likewise on the attempting to free him from imprisonment. Ysengrin's never been imprisoned, so we don't really have anything to compare to. Coyote may be just as likely to free Ysengrin if he were to get captured. Not that Ysengrin would ever get captured.
Third point: Ysengrin got beaten in the meeting because that was the plan all along. His body is made out of wood, after all. It was quickly established that the entire attack was a ruse to let Ysengrin drop the seeds. So the two of them might have planned it all out ahead of time so that Ysengrin could drop the seeds. Or another possibility is that Ysengrin knowingly crossed the line in appearing to attack Annie, so that Coyote would throw him against the wall and he'd be able to drop the seeds surreptitiously, without even Coyote knowing. I mention this because it hasn't been established yet whether Coyote is aware of Ysengrin's attacks on the Court.
Fourth point: I disagree that Coyote only mentions Ysengrin as an afterthought in Coyote Stories. Most of the dialogue may be about Renard, but that is because Renard is who Annie asked Coyote about. He's answering her questions, which happen to not be about Ysengrin. In fact Coyote interjects things about Ysengrin without being asked, such as the fact that the idea of not letting humans into the forest anymore was Ysengrin's idea.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that the facts as we know them can also be seen to reject the notion that Coyote mistreats Ysengrin.
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Post by fuzzyone on Jul 14, 2009 16:01:01 GMT
I'm stumbling upon a new theory... a Theory that's taking shape the further we go.
My Theory: Jeanne was a Medium, and mediated the union of the refugees and the Gillitie wood creatures. Also, Jeanne is the Seed Bismuth.
Why I think this: First... She was unknown to the Guides. Ketrak shows up the instant an insect dies. As far as we know, The same can be said of other guides and their respective charges. We don't know how long Annie was in the Ravine before Muut showed up. But somehow, Jeanne stayed down in the ravine long enough to lose a great deal of her identity. Why could the guides she belonged to not reach her? The last time we saw a guide dispute was someone who belonged to two guides, and needed to be shown the way, but they knew Martin. He just wouldn't let them approach him.
I theorize that Jeanne was NOT among the human refugees that would eventually make up the court. Perhaps she LIVED in Gillitie Wood, helping the creatures there with their disputes. Her abilities as a Medium would not make her particularly well suited for life in the world at large, so she came to a place that would be more accepting of her.
Next, Is the fact that she was present for the founding of the Court, but not shown amongst the founders. In fact, there is no mention of her. Almost like she was expunged from the event. The Court Founders knew who they all were... but she wasn't shown as among them. This is why I think she was there before they arrived. Someone had to be there before the refugees came, to help smooth things over, and secure a place for the humans. How else would the Etheric beings of the forest trust the humans, unless there was someone speaking on their behalf? The Seed Bismuth is considered Integral to the founding of the court... but we're unclear on what it was. Diego was smitten with her enough to make his shrine. The Shrine that dates back to the founding of the Court, since it was made by Diego. Coyote, when discussing the rift in the court, depicted the scene of the founding, and called it man trying to tame the beasts of the Wood. So even though they, according to Reynardine, weren't there yet, they had some knowledge of the event. I don't imagine they were too long in coming.
There's also the fact that Jeanne was a Swordswoman, and Parley, who is in Training to be a Medium, is engaging in sword training. And, according to Reynardine, Jeanne was uncomfortable in her finery... Someone who lived among the creatures of the Wood would have no need for such a fancy, elegant dress. As to why she posed for such a portrait, that remains a mystery.
There's also one other detail: We don't know that ALL mediums had dealings with the Psychopomps. It may be that Jeanne never had dealings with them, hence, why they don't know her. We also don't know WHY none of them could come for Surma. I've theorized in the past that it was due to her position as a medium, and the neutrality that such a position required.
I'm offering no speculation on Jeanne's death, as there's far too little information to go on. But I think her ROLE is becoming clearer to me.
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Jul 15, 2009 12:12:17 GMT
You may be right, and I'm not saying that you're wrong. But. The reason Coyote kept offering powers to Renard was because Renard wouldn't take them. Ysengrin on the other hand took the powers that Coyote offered (power over the trees) the first chance he had. So it's a bit misleading to say that Coyote favored Renard over Ysengrin because he keeps offering him powers. I'm sure he'd keep offering Ysengrin powers too if he had turned them down. Not that Ysengrin would ever turn down power. It's a bit more complex than that. Coyote didn't just offer Renard one power: he said that he wanted to turn Renard into a being /like himself/. It's possible that he just meant "I'll give him one power so he's (more) supernatural", but the way he put that makes it seem like more than that. It seems likely that he wanted to elevate Rey to semi-godhood by offering him a significant fraction of his powers. Now let's look at Ysengrin. I agree completely that he'd never turn down a power like this from Coyote. So clearly Coyote /does not/ intend to turn Ysengrin into a being like him. We know this because he isn't one right now. He has power over the trees, and that power is relatively recently acquired (the headmaster wasn't aware of it). So Coyote must not have offered Ysengrin any powers while Rey was free. We don't even know if this was a power Coyote offered Ysengrin or if he had to lobby for it (and frankly I suspect the latter). That's why the "kept offering" is significant. Coyote offers Reynard powers again and again for years even though he refuses them, and does not offer anything to faithful Ysengrin, who would have said yes instantly. That's not comparative. It's just an example of a way in which Coyote is showing concern for Reynard, whom Ysengrin probably does not feel is worthy of concern. (Incidentally, note that the robot grabs Rey /by the throat/ which could have been dangerous if he hadn't been in a body with no need to breathe - how much did Ysengrin's orders reflect Coyote's intent?) We actually don't know that this was the point of the attack. Jones said that it was a ruse, but whose and for what purpose? Jones is not infallible. (Okay, it's /likely/ that Jones isn't infallible.) Was Ysengrin not legitimately angry? Even if that was the plan all along, consider: Coyote either proposed or is okay with a plan that involves hitting Ysengrin so hard that blood comes out of his mouth and he's unable to move. He isn't really made out of wood under there; Tom has already said in a question thread that he's basically still a wolf under that wood body. He presumably still has the usual complement of organs which probably did not enjoy being violently hurled into a stone wall. Even if Ysengrin planned for him to do that on his own and went over the line in attacking Annie to provoke it, the point is that Coyote is willing to hit him that hard to defend humans (whom Ysengrin despises), and that's not something that you want someone you love to be able to do even if you know they will. And to add insult to injury, Coyote apologizes for his behavior and claims he's "too easy to rile" on the way out. The specific story I'm talking about is the first one, where Annie asks why the heck a Native American legend is running around the UK. Coyote replies with, essentially, "I heard stories and came to check them out. And I found my dear cousin Reynard! A trickster like me! Oh, and also Ysengrin." In that conversation he also refers to Ysengrin as "You old grump", points out that the power he has makes him shake like an old man, and says he might tell Annie his (Coyote's) great secret. (Look at the reaction panel from Ysengrin on that last one. He is /not/ happy about that.) Even the interjection you refer to happens because Ysengrin draws attention to himself by muttering about traitors, not because Coyote came up with it on his own. Obviously interpretations of facts in the story can vary, and peoples' standards of whether someone is treated well or poorly can vary, but I'm fairly convinced on this part of it for myself. Whether that will actually pay off in the way I think it will (or in any way at all) is a different story; on that point I'm just guessing.
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Post by Casey on Jul 15, 2009 13:06:18 GMT
Well, okay. In my view, you're saying "seems to me" a lot, in lieu of statements of fact, and you're saying "seems not to me" in view of statements of fact, in order to support your position. I would call that confirmative bias. But like I said, who am I to judge.
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Jul 15, 2009 15:39:27 GMT
Well, yeah. I have to include the occasional weasel word because I'm projecting (using my own beliefs about the world) forward from the story as written. But I think they're reasonable projections that have grounding in the evidence in the story. You can think of it as confirmation bias if you like, but I don't personally have any stake in whether Ysengrin is upset with Coyote or not. I'm simply presenting the chain of reasoning that lead me to that belief, and expanding on it to explain why I have that interpretation of events and not another one.
For example, the business about Coyote not offering Ysengrin powers; it's entirely possible that both of us are wrong about Ysengrin's personality there, and that he would turn them down except under specific conditions. In that case, it could be that in fact Coyote was offering him powers every day of the week while Reynard was around and he only grudgingly accepted near the end for the greater good. It's just unlikely based on what we've seen so far (that he is devoted to Coyote, that he wants to run things, that he calls himself a general and therefore wants to assume command, etc etc.). If the assumptions are accurate (Ysengrin would accept powers if offered, Ysengrin had no powers until after Reynardine was captured), the conclusion that Ysengrin was not offered powers before Reynardine was captured, while not directly stated in the story, is certain. The part I'm projecting here is that this might be something which upsets Ysengrin. I'm not basing that on evidence in the story; it's a supposition on my part based on guesses about his personality, but I think they're reasonable enough guesses that I'm happy to stick by them.
And, frankly, even the things we think we have as facts are predicated on the assumption that Annie is a completely reliable narrator. I think it's reasonable to assume that, of course, but you can't ever really be sure of /anything/ in a story.
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Post by Casey on Jul 15, 2009 16:00:41 GMT
All good points, and of course, this is the Wild Spec thread, so a certain amount of leeway with assumptions and quick conclusions is natural. Very well then, my non-pea-liking comrade, carry on.
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Post by penguinfactory on Jul 17, 2009 9:40:59 GMT
I agree with the "Jeanne is/was the Seed Bismuth" thing. Diego was at the founding of the Court, and at some point in his life time she died, presumably due in some way to Sir Young.
Jeanne is unknown to Jones. So is the Seed Bismuth. Putting two and two together......
As for today's page, anyone else wonder what Reynardine was about to say before Annie interrupted her? And whether "a fire your mother had" means a bit more than it seems?
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Post by Rasselas on Jul 17, 2009 12:15:50 GMT
This could potentially mean that the mediums have a connection to the Seed Bismuth, or bear it within them in a way. Then, it could also be connected to the reason why Surma died.
"The fire that Surma had" might also be connected to this. Remember the depiction of the blinker stone, fiery. Coyote calling Annie "fire head girl".
Have I mentioned lately how much I love this comic?
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Post by djublonskopf on Jul 20, 2009 14:08:16 GMT
I had an idea about Jones back when she sank into the bed.
Jones is huge.
Her human appearance is an deception of some kind, masking something that is, in reality, much bigger. Her image-altering powers also let her do the sword thing. Her emotionless face is the best mask she can manage.
I now imagine Jones as something very ancient and very large, heretofore unintroduced to the comic.
I am likely entirely wrong.
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Post by warrl on Jul 22, 2009 18:41:06 GMT
You may be right, and I'm not saying that you're wrong. But. The reason Coyote kept offering powers to Renard was because Renard wouldn't take them. Ysengrin on the other hand took the powers that Coyote offered (power over the trees) the first chance he had. So it's a bit misleading to say that Coyote favored Renard over Ysengrin because he keeps offering him powers. I'm sure he'd keep offering Ysengrin powers too if he had turned them down. Not that Ysengrin would ever turn down power. It's a bit more complex than that. Coyote didn't just offer Renard one power: he said that he wanted to turn Renard into a being /like himself/. It's possible that he just meant "I'll give him one power so he's (more) supernatural", but the way he put that makes it seem like more than that. It seems likely that he wanted to elevate Rey to semi-godhood by offering him a significant fraction of his powers. Now let's look at Ysengrin. I agree completely that he'd never turn down a power like this from Coyote. So clearly Coyote /does not/ intend to turn Ysengrin into a being like him. We know this because he isn't one right now. He has power over the trees, and that power is relatively recently acquired (the headmaster wasn't aware of it). So Coyote must not have offered Ysengrin any powers while Rey was free. We don't even know if this was a power Coyote offered Ysengrin or if he had to lobby for it (and frankly I suspect the latter). There are two major varieties of mythological tricksters. The teacher trickster. Coyote and Raven are the best-known examples in the US. Coyote in GCK is true to this archetype. You may be embarrassed or inconvenienced by the trickster, but you will never be seriously harmed and there's a good chance that there's a valuable lesson you could learn from the experience. The destroyer-trickster. Loki, and to a lesser extent Fenris. Meet with this trickster, and death and destruction are the expected outcome. If Coyote were able to give his powers to Renard *without* unpleasant side effects, what kind of trickster would Renard be? In his own myths he never really hurt any other characters. He loves humans, Coyote says. Now, how about Coyote giving his powers to Ysengrim? He hates humans. Who or what does he love? He apparently stomped on the suicide fairies to cover up a lie. The only thing he is alleged to love is Coyote, but that doesn't seem to stop him from acting in a manner apparently contrary to Coyote's apparent goals whenever Coyote isn't looking (or whom do you suppose he wanted to hide his lie FROM, that sending the fairies across to the Court was a sensible move?).
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Post by bisected8 on Jul 22, 2009 21:29:08 GMT
^^^ I think there are more sort of neutral tricksters in mythology. But maybe they fit more in with fairies and goblins and other such creatures than with gods and goddesses. I just had a glass of brandy (I'm visiting my grandparents, so they broke out the spirits ) so my memory's a bit cloudy as far as folklore goes...
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Jul 22, 2009 22:05:44 GMT
Even Coyote and Reynard are not entirely pleasant people, as tricksters, but they're certainly better than Loki, yes.
I agree that that could well be Coyote's motive for not giving Ysengrin more powers; he doesn't trust him not to do insane or horrible things with them. Which is just another reason for Ysengrin to resent not getting them.
ETA: In terms of sending the fairies over to the court - does Ysengrin know that's what he did? We know the fairies have to die to finish the test, and he took care of that part, but he most likely just thought he was killing them and didn't know they were participating in the test. (It's possible that he did; if so, then he must have intended them to go to the court for some reason we'll probably find out about later.)
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Post by Casey on Jul 22, 2009 22:33:22 GMT
In terms of sending the fairies over to the court - does Ysengrin know that's what he did? We know the fairies have to die to finish the test, and he took care of that part, but he most likely just thought he was killing them and didn't know they were participating in the test. (It's possible that he did; if so, then he must have intended them to go to the court for some reason we'll probably find out about later.) I rather suspect that he did know that the fairies were taking the test, or else they wouldn't have been down there ( panel 2). I don't know that that information really helps though. He could have just been hungry, like Red said here ( panel 7), and not really thinking or caring about the fact that they would end up in the Court. he could have also figured that they were already on the last stage of the Test, so he might as well eat them since they were looking to die anyway.
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Post by fuzzyone on Jul 24, 2009 4:15:41 GMT
Remember Ysengrin's stance on those who take the test to become human. "Traitors"... If he knew that's what they were doing, he'd have likely just killed them to get them out of the Wood. If Not, it was probably as conjectured, and to cover up the fact that he buried the tictoc.Ysengrin's motives are largely unclear. It's also possible that he's just plain insane qith his hatred, and willing to do whatever it takes to rid his Wood of the humans.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 24, 2009 5:01:06 GMT
I had an idea about Jones back when she sank into the bed. Jones is huge. Her human appearance is an deception of some kind, masking something that is, in reality, much bigger. Her image-altering powers also let her do the sword thing. Her emotionless face is the best mask she can manage. I now imagine Jones as something very ancient and very large, heretofore unintroduced to the comic. I think you're right about the ancient part. My wild speculation is that Jones is some version of the mythic Galatea. Stone is just as heavy as a metal robot body, maybe more so, and could deflect a blade. She's unemotional and blunt and her countenance is stoic (stony?) but she promotes romance. That'd all fit with a statue brought to life by Aphrodite.
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baf
New Member
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Post by baf on Jul 24, 2009 13:59:57 GMT
Jones is, in some sense, a sword. I don't know how a sword takes on human form, but it would explain a lot about the duel with Eglamore
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Post by bisected8 on Jul 24, 2009 15:36:22 GMT
I've mentioned this in one of the other threads but; I've come up with the idea that some of the effects of Zimmy's power are the result of her being insane. She's got some sort of telepathy or mind reading power and Zim City is a hallucination that her powers cause her to share with those nearby.
BTW, baf are you a fan of Soul Eater by any chance?
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Jul 24, 2009 16:07:45 GMT
My wild speculation is that Jones is some version of the mythic Galatea. Oh, that's an interesting idea. That would also explain how she knows Egyptian, since ancient Greece and ancient Egypt were strongly connected.
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