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Post by taothegreat on Jun 17, 2019 20:56:37 GMT
There are several reasons why this theory is a bit of a stretch (not least of which being that most of the residents of the Court would have been shifted as well), but for some reason I am convinced that the "Annie" that already exists within the present timeline is actually Surma, and this is a timeline where she never had a child.
It may just be because I feel like there being a third Annie doesn't add much dramatic value, but Surma and Annie being able to exist within the same timeline is interesting indeed.
In the thread for today's page, people are speculating that Loup may be holding this third Annie within the forest as a bargaining chip - but wouldn't Surma be a much more compelling one?
I am probably 10000% wrong, but that's what wild spec is for, I suppose!
(Broke my silence after 4 years of forum lurking to post this theory, so I hope it doesn't sound like total garbage)
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Post by DonDueed on Jun 17, 2019 22:13:10 GMT
There are several reasons why this theory is a bit of a stretch (not least of which being that most of the residents of the Court would have been shifted as well), but for some reason I am convinced that the "Annie" that already exists within the present timeline is actually Surma, and this is a timeline where she never had a child. It may just be because I feel like there being a third Annie doesn't add much dramatic value, but Surma and Annie being able to exist within the same timeline is interesting indeed. In the thread for today's page, people are speculating that Loup may be holding this third Annie within the forest as a bargaining chip - but wouldn't Surma be a much more compelling one? I am probably 10000% wrong, but that's what wild spec is for, I suppose! (Broke my silence after 4 years of forum lurking to post this theory, so I hope it doesn't sound like total garbage) Welcome to the forum! That's quite the wildspec. I find it hard to understand how the story could have reached its current stage with no Annie at all (even with a Surma), but then Tom is an endless source of surprises.
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Post by madjack on Jun 18, 2019 9:03:55 GMT
Interesting out-of-the-square tought: The Tik Toks exist simultaneously in all the "thousand" dimensions, observing their differences. Zimmy/Zimmingham (how I love plots with Zimmy!) is a walking interdimensional portal, where things from other realities can cross interdimensions, where alter-serves can mix, or walk into each other. I'm trying not to think about all this and here you've both got me thinking about it and now I do think about it... I can't think of any single event that would have affected the story as we know it than the TicTocs saving Annie's life when she fell off the bridge. Let's assume there were no TicTocs to save her and Annie died in the Annan river that day: - Annie dies, and with no broken TicToc around, Ys is content to leave it at that. The Court and Forest keep failing to interact, and Jeanne remains undiscovered.
- Robot would never have been broken out of his prison, so Kat would never have started thinking about ways to make him a body, thus no inspiration to try bioengineering.
- There very likely would have been nobody to rescue Jack when he got trapped in Zimmingham.
- Parley and Smitty... Probably would still have gotten together, but with no real need for a medium, it may have taken a lot longer.
- Rey would have been free, without any of the character development we've followed him through, and might wreak havoc again.
- Anthony and his expedition to try to revive/see Surma again may have ended in his death, if he hadn't already given up on life all together.
Finally, just to prove that this really is the worst timeline: - Annie never visits the Forest, or pokes the Moon.
- Chang'e never visits the Court as a result.
- Matt never becomes smitten by her and so:
- He might have been more receptive to Paz' advances.
- Since Paz doesn't need cheering up, PazKat never happens.
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 18, 2019 20:52:53 GMT
Anthony and his expedition to try to revive/see Surma again may have ended in his death, if he hadn't already given up on life all together. In any case, those ...creatures... would have had to trick him into doing something different but equally devastating. I wonder if the Court would have bothered to try and find him earlier, had Annie died on that day. Some things I would add to your list: - Red and Ayilu would still be nameless
- Shadow 2 might be in hiding or with Kat, but he would still be 2D, as nobody would have brought the Coyote Tooth to cut him from the floor.
- Mort would still be unsuccessfully haunting his corner of the Court. Depending on whether the Court decided about the need for a new Medium, he might have met Parley and Andrew or not.
- Hetty would still be alive, and Adam probably dead, setting Hetty free.
- Coyote would be thinking about something else to exploit to get Ysengrin to kill him.
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Post by najmniejszy on Jun 19, 2019 12:15:36 GMT
Anthony and his expedition to try to revive/see Surma again may have ended in his death, if he hadn't already given up on life all together. In any case, those ...creatures... would have had to trick him into doing something different but equally devastating. I wonder if the Court would have bothered to try and find him earlier, had Annie died on that day. Or, with Surma's/Annie's/the whole fire elemental lineage's lifeforce being in the ether rather than in a living Annie, bringing back Surma might have been possible, and Tony might have found actual psychopomps or other beings capable of doing that. The question is, what would be the price? Tony's own life? Him becoming a horror villain and sacrificing people in dark rituals? Him being bound with a contract to the psychopomps, similar to how Annie was bound in exchange for saving Smitty?
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Post by DonDueed on Jun 28, 2019 10:34:08 GMT
OK, here goes...
Kat is not the first to bring a robot to life. The first was Diego, and the former robot was Jeanne.
This explains Diego's obsession (creator loving his creation), her rejection of him (she sees him as a father figure, not a lover), and his final betrayal ("I created you, you must love me!").
It also explains the origin of the tech used in the arrow -- it was first used to transfer Jeanne into her human body, then modified to trap her lover (and indirectly trap her as well). This is why it could be used again by Kat to transfer Arthur into his new body. Also, that's why it triggered the Saslamel intervention -- it was a single-use contract and that single use was Jeanne. Trapping the green guy was the second use and first violation but as we were told, the arbiter couldn't track the arrow until Kat used it again.
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Post by saardvark on Jun 28, 2019 11:51:26 GMT
OK, here goes...
Kat is not the first to bring a robot to life. The first was Diego, and the former robot was Jeanne.
This explains Diego's obsession (creator loving his creation), her rejection of him (she sees him as a father figure, not a lover), and his final betrayal ("I created you, you must love me!").
It also explains the origin of the tech used in the arrow -- it was first used to transfer Jeanne into her human body, then modified to trap her lover (and indirectly trap her as well). This is why it could be used again by Kat to transfer Arthur into his new body. Also, that's why it triggered the Saslamel intervention -- it was a single-use contract and that single use was Jeanne. Trapping the green guy was the second use and first violation but as we were told, the arbiter couldn't track the arrow until Kat used it again.
The modification to trap things (to "own" them?) may still be partly operative, since in transferring Arthur's mind to new-Arthur, Kat was accidentally transferring ownership of Rey to new-Arthur as well. This could have happened when Kat used the arrow to transfer Rey's ownership back to Annie... the arrow picked up and retained (trapped) some residual ownership of Rey, which then got flushed out with the next use. Maybe?
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Post by DonDueed on Jun 28, 2019 16:58:20 GMT
OK, here goes...
Kat is not the first to bring a robot to life. The first was Diego, and the former robot was Jeanne.
This explains Diego's obsession (creator loving his creation), her rejection of him (she sees him as a father figure, not a lover), and his final betrayal ("I created you, you must love me!").
It also explains the origin of the tech used in the arrow -- it was first used to transfer Jeanne into her human body, then modified to trap her lover (and indirectly trap her as well). This is why it could be used again by Kat to transfer Arthur into his new body. Also, that's why it triggered the Saslamel intervention -- it was a single-use contract and that single use was Jeanne. Trapping the green guy was the second use and first violation but as we were told, the arbiter couldn't track the arrow until Kat used it again.
The modification to trap things (to "own" them?) may still be partly operative, since in transferring Arthur's mind to new-Arthur, Kat was accidentally transferring ownership of Rey to new-Arthur as well. This could have happened when Kat used the arrow to transfer Rey's ownership back to Annie... the arrow picked up and retained (trapped) some residual ownership of Rey, which then got flushed out with the next use. Maybe? Well, my original thought was that the tech for transfer was used first on Jeanne, then the arrow was created by modifying that tech -- i.e. the arrow itself was not used to corporealize Jeanne. (Why would that have been arrow-shaped at all?) But your suggestion still works for the arrow even if it was only used to pin the green guy in the Annan prior to Kat's transfer of Rey back to Annie.
But that may be somewhat inconsistent with what I said above, namely that the use on Jeanne was the first use of a single-use contract. I may have a logic hole there... somebody call the fallacy plumber!
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Post by saardvark on Jun 28, 2019 18:29:47 GMT
OK, here goes...
Kat is not the first to bring a robot to life. The first was Diego, and the former robot was Jeanne.
This explains Diego's obsession (creator loving his creation), her rejection of him (she sees him as a father figure, not a lover), and his final betrayal ("I created you, you must love me!").
It also explains the origin of the tech used in the arrow -- it was first used to transfer Jeanne into her human body, then modified to trap her lover (and indirectly trap her as well). This is why it could be used again by Kat to transfer Arthur into his new body. Also, that's why it triggered the Saslamel intervention -- it was a single-use contract and that single use was Jeanne. Trapping the green guy was the second use and first violation but as we were told, the arbiter couldn't track the arrow until Kat used it again.
If you're right, Jeanne would prove that humanized robots gain souls and a connection to the ether. We may get some more info on this from Arthur...
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Post by mturtle7 on Jul 1, 2019 19:19:01 GMT
OK, here goes...
Kat is not the first to bring a robot to life. The first was Diego, and the former robot was Jeanne.
This explains Diego's obsession (creator loving his creation), her rejection of him (she sees him as a father figure, not a lover), and his final betrayal ("I created you, you must love me!").
It also explains the origin of the tech used in the arrow -- it was first used to transfer Jeanne into her human body, then modified to trap her lover (and indirectly trap her as well). This is why it could be used again by Kat to transfer Arthur into his new body. Also, that's why it triggered the Saslamel intervention -- it was a single-use contract and that single use was Jeanne. Trapping the green guy was the second use and first violation but as we were told, the arbiter couldn't track the arrow until Kat used it again.
My first question is, did Jeanne even know about her true nature? Or did Diego deliberately keep that from her, to better mantain his amorous fantasy?
My second question is, did Diego build that human body himself, like Kat just did? Or did he obtain the body through...other means?
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Post by DonDueed on Jul 1, 2019 23:37:17 GMT
OK, here goes...
Kat is not the first to bring a robot to life. The first was Diego, and the former robot was Jeanne.
This explains Diego's obsession (creator loving his creation), her rejection of him (she sees him as a father figure, not a lover), and his final betrayal ("I created you, you must love me!").
It also explains the origin of the tech used in the arrow -- it was first used to transfer Jeanne into her human body, then modified to trap her lover (and indirectly trap her as well). This is why it could be used again by Kat to transfer Arthur into his new body. Also, that's why it triggered the Saslamel intervention -- it was a single-use contract and that single use was Jeanne. Trapping the green guy was the second use and first violation but as we were told, the arbiter couldn't track the arrow until Kat used it again.
My first question is, did Jeanne even know about her true nature? Or did Diego deliberately keep that from her, to better mantain his amorous fantasy?
My second question is, did Diego build that human body himself, like Kat just did? Or did he obtain the body through...other means?
WS2: Speculate Wilder!
I didn't consider it specifically, but I'd say Jeanne knew she began as one of Diego's robots. Otherwise, why would she consider Diego a father figure? I would guess she was a Seraph model like Robot. Seraph 1, perhaps.
I don't see Diego as a Dr. Fronkensteen. Jeanne certainly wasn't enfleshed into Abby Normal's brain.
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Post by Eily on Jul 15, 2019 11:52:35 GMT
I'm starting to believe that the whole Saslamel and contract stuff, including Kat going to mind prison, was just a fake. I already said that I don't think the new contract can be a plot point because the "Terms & Condition" was too much of a joke and break from the narrative (like the friends apartment which Annie was immediately kicked off of), and required too big an idiot ball. The whole "since the beginning of time, some objects have come in three flavours of ownership" was hardly better than complete nonsense in my opinion. Ownership is often much more fuzzy than two names and a status. And it's ok to change an owner willingly by giving, or unwillingly by stealing, but when Kat does it it's forbidden? And Kat complains about not getting a cool transformation like Renard, which kind of highlights the fact that beyond signing a joke contract, nothing happened for her.
So my guess is that Clippy's point was only to turn Reynard into Annies' familiar all along. Four guesses for who might be behind it - The psychopomps. Their previous attempt at "helping" Annie (giving her the blinker stone) turned out not to be subtle enough, so this time they tried a bigger distraction. - The ROTD. Pretend bureaucracy is basically their whole thing, and they did the fake contract thing with Mort, even if it was not written. It might be a thank you gift for taking care of the arrow and Jeanne. Maybe Jeanne was involved, and changing Rey stopped whatever the arrow was doing to him. - Coyote or one of his allies. This has Coyote's style all over it. I already mentioned that Rey's new status would let him jump into Loup's body (and Coyote wanted Rey to have his powers), while still being under the controle of the Annies (To make the situation more acceptable to the Court) - Loup. I have some doubts about that one, but it would give the phrase "well it seem that neither of them should be here" a whole different meaning
I also mentioned in some thread that I found it weird that some new characters and a new plot would just appear out of nowhere, only to be immediately resolved by having some major change on some unrelated arc. From that plot we jumped straight to a situation where (in today's page) the Annies talk about how convenient that change is to them. It really makes me doubt that the Rey becoming a familiar could just be a side effect of the Clippy episode.
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Post by Eily on Jul 16, 2019 17:57:48 GMT
Speaking of the psychopomps' gift. Annie can now do with Rey what she used to do with the blinker stone. Maybe that's what familiars are, the living version of blinker stone (or, and it wouldn't surprise me, blinker stones are actually manufactured substitutes for familiars)
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Post by madjack on Aug 20, 2019 7:51:22 GMT
Try this on for size: Assuming both Annies are from different universes and the Rey who is bound to them is from 'ours', they'll both at some point return to their own reality and be able to use the link to Rey to contact each other between worlds. They'll use this to co-ordinate a multi-dimensional effort to do.... something.
Save the original Annie's life perhaps?
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Post by pyradonis on Aug 20, 2019 8:55:28 GMT
Try this on for size: Assuming both Annies are from different universes and the Rey who is bound to them is from 'ours', they'll both at some point return to their own reality and be able to use the link to Rey to contact each other between worlds. They'll use this to co-ordinate a multi-dimensional effort to do.... something. Save the original Annie's life perhaps? Who says there is an "original", or even any Annie from the timeline we have been following?
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Post by madjack on Aug 20, 2019 8:59:42 GMT
Try this on for size: Assuming both Annies are from different universes and the Rey who is bound to them is from 'ours', they'll both at some point return to their own reality and be able to use the link to Rey to contact each other between worlds. They'll use this to co-ordinate a multi-dimensional effort to do.... something. Save the original Annie's life perhaps? Who says there is an "original", or even any Annie from the timeline we have been following? Which is why I qualified it as an assumption. Having them set up the entire plot of the story so far just to enable things to play out in a 'known' fashion would be something that we could see. It'd be a perfect way to bring them into (or against) the Court's machinations maybe? A bit on the extreme end though.
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Post by DonDueed on Aug 20, 2019 14:26:39 GMT
Try this on for size: Assuming both Annies are from different universes and the Rey who is bound to them is from 'ours', they'll both at some point return to their own reality and be able to use the link to Rey to contact each other between worlds. There's been some speculation that this is exactly what is happening now.
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Post by madjack on Aug 21, 2019 4:54:24 GMT
Try this on for size: Assuming both Annies are from different universes and the Rey who is bound to them is from 'ours', they'll both at some point return to their own reality and be able to use the link to Rey to contact each other between worlds. There's been some speculation that this is exactly what is happening now. What's happening now feels like they've been shoved into small, contained illusions while still remaining fairly physically close by. What I'm thinking is that this ability will still work at scale, and that what's happening now is the setup for that.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 21, 2019 7:03:27 GMT
There's been some speculation that this is exactly what is happening now. What's happening now feels like they've been shoved into small, contained illusions while still remaining fairly physically close by. What I'm thinking is that this ability will still work at scale, and that what's happening now is the setup for that. The groups would have to be somewhat close to play them off against each other but separated by at least thrown-rock distance to avoid unplanned contact. I think Eggers was successful in moving the groups closer together.
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Post by Druplesnubb on Aug 23, 2019 22:19:11 GMT
Try this on for size: Assuming both Annies are from different universes and the Rey who is bound to them is from 'ours', they'll both at some point return to their own reality and be able to use the link to Rey to contact each other between worlds. They'll use this to co-ordinate a multi-dimensional effort to do.... something. Save the original Annie's life perhaps? Who says there is an "original", or even any Annie from the timeline we have been following? I mean everyone else seems to remember Annie being a thing so are you suggesting that all the other characters are also from other dimensions or have had their memories altered somehow?
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Post by pyradonis on Aug 24, 2019 14:15:32 GMT
Who says there is an "original", or even any Annie from the timeline we have been following? I mean everyone else seems to remember Annie being a thing so are you suggesting that all the other characters are also from other dimensions or have had their memories altered somehow? No, but that an Annie got pulled into the timeline we have been following much earlier, before the start of the comic.
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Post by Igniz on Aug 24, 2019 17:04:28 GMT
Maybe the absense of this timeline's Annie has something to do with her nature as a fire elemental, the psychopomps (and Surma's death), Tony's antenna, or a combination of these.
Of course, it could also be because of Loup's shifting: by diverging her, neither Annie is the "original", full one anymore. And there's also the possibility of neither of them being here because this timeline shouldn't exist, as it is a direct result of Thanos Loup meddling with space and time.
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Post by Per on Aug 24, 2019 19:15:08 GMT
Maybe the true protagonist was retroactively removed from all timelines as the result of momentous events yet to be hinted at. We're just seeing a world where some other characters happened to percolate to the top.
And this is the true tragedy of Gunnerkrigg Court.
But nobody ever thinks about that.
He/she was Becky Ground's best friend.
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Post by Gemini Jim on Sept 2, 2019 20:50:18 GMT
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Post by pyradonis on Sept 13, 2019 8:36:51 GMT
Just in case no one has done it yet, I would like to claim the wildspec that neither Annie "should be here" because Annie was supposed to die by falling off the bridge. Only that *some* machine goddess retconned a species of artificial birds into the timeline which saved Annie. She will get the idea to do this after having witnessed a timeline where Annie falls to her death on that day (this will happen accidentally during the search for the timeline where Loup removed Annie), and will retroactively create the timeline we have been following the whole...time. You see, it is a bit complicated, but most time travel stories are, and I should definitely rewrite this wildspec after having read the Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations.
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Post by madjack on Sept 13, 2019 8:50:10 GMT
Just in case no one has done it yet, I would like to claim the wildspec that neither Annie "should be here" because Annie was supposed to die by falling off the bridge. Only that *some* machine goddess retconned a species of artificial birds into the timeline which saved Annie. She will get the idea to do this after having witnessed a timeline where Annie falls to her death on that day (this will happen accidentally during the search for the timeline where Loup removed Annie), and will retroactively create the timeline we have been following the whole...time. You see, it is a bit complicated, but most time travel stories are, and I should definitely rewrite this wildspec after having read the Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations. I would like to be able to claim that, but then went back and reread my own post exploring the consequences of Annie not being rescued by them and realised I forgot to put the theory I intended to discuss in the post.Whoops.
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Post by netherdan on Sept 13, 2019 12:49:37 GMT
Just in case no one has done it yet, I would like to claim the wildspec that neither Annie "should be here" because Annie was supposed to die by falling off the bridge. Only that *some* machine goddess retconned a species of artificial birds into the timeline which saved Annie. She will get the idea to do this after having witnessed a timeline where Annie falls to her death on that day (this will happen accidentally during the search for the timeline where Loup removed Annie), and will retroactively create the timeline we have been following the whole...time. You see, it is a bit complicated, but most time travel stories are, and I should definitely rewrite this wildspec after having read the Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations. I thought about that too but I most certainly forgot to mention it. But I remember someone, probably not me, talking about Kat sending them birds back in time for this very purpose... I would like to be able to claim that, but then went back and reread my own post exploring the consequences of Annie not being rescued by them and realised I forgot to put the theory I intended to discuss in the post.Whoops. Shhh... just edit it, nobody will notice. Maybe it was you that said it the whole time and I'm just remembering your post time travel edit to that post. Do it!
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Post by pyradonis on Sept 14, 2019 10:53:42 GMT
I would like to be able to claim that, but then went back and reread my own post exploring the consequences of Annie not being rescued by them and realised I forgot to put the theory I intended to discuss in the post.Whoops. Shhh... just edit it, nobody will notice. Maybe it was you that said it the whole time and I'm just remembering your post time travel edit to that post. Do it! Do that and I will edit that theory into one of my posts so far in the past where neither of you two was even registered in this forum!
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Post by Per on Sept 14, 2019 16:44:24 GMT
Hot elf babe is William's big sister.
William is hot elf babe's little sister.
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Post by madjack on Sept 17, 2019 7:13:59 GMT
Some guessing about Forest ninja chick: She was unfrozen by Loup when he saw Annie2 was in a predicament, and he placed a binding on her with instructions to make sure both Annies are safe... Only he didn't specify a time frame on purpose because he's that kind of asshole, and when she tries to bail after getting them all out of the wisps' nest, the binding will consider that a breach and slice her arm off.
This will serve to keep her in the Court (for character development) because Kat can make replacement limbs.
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