Wild Speculation

[brilliantgrey]

Also stuff about Kat !!

I think the Court robots are starting to be inspired to have beliefs which will shape the ether. As creations of humans and, thus the offspring of the disease of human intellect, they could possess the potential to actually shape the ether upon death (which is why the death of the chicken wing was so significant to them- 'the first of us to die a natural death'). If they receive organic/organitech bodies, they will unlock this potential, and upon death will be released into the ether. This will gradually lead to Kat actually becoming the metal angel that Zimmy sees, as the power of the robot's minds shapes the world of the ether. (what I'm sayin' is Kat's gonna be robot Jesus basically.)

The reason Zimmy sees Kat as the angel when under etheric distress (and thus in conditions where she is generating a great deal of ether) is that the amount of ether she's creating amplifies the effects of the robots' influence on the ether. As Coyote and Jones demonstrate with their explanations for the placement of the stars, the forming of the ether by human intellect is not exactly linear, explaining why Zimmy could see Angel!Kat before the first robot had died.

[Jelly Jellybean]

Feb 25, 2017 3:11:39 GMT brilliantgrey said:

Also stuff about Kat !!
...

If you haven't seen it, there is a long running thread specifically dedicated to Kat.  The original post summarizes a lot that is said over the years.

[brilliantgrey]

Feb 25, 2017 14:52:47 GMT Jelly Jellybean said:

Feb 25, 2017 3:11:39 GMT brilliantgrey said:

Also stuff about Kat !!
...

If you haven't seen it, there is a long running thread specifically dedicated to Kat.  The original post summarizes a lot that is said over the years.

Yup, I've seen it! I put it here since it's kind of about Zimmy though.

[mturtle7]

Feb 25, 2017 2:51:27 GMT brilliantgrey said:

The Omega Device itself would have to be powered by both etheric and mechanical means, and likely the reason the Court allowed Tony to go on his mystical wilderness adventure. He now possesses firsthand experience in separating through the layers of reality to divide between the ether and the non-etheric world. This is also why they've brought him back, and why he is so deep into the inner circle of the court. The Court, also probably resentful of the fact that to truly and finally separate themselves from Gillitie Wood they must utilize etheric means, understands that there is no other way to achieve their end goal. The Court knows that if they remove enough ether from Zimmy's surroundings, she will be forced to generate an essentially endless amount of it, which could be used to power the device. Also I just think it's thematically likely that our friend Zeta and the Omega Device are connected just based on name alone.

It's implied in Chapters 52 and 53 that Donny is involved in the Omega Device research. If your theory is right, it would make perfect sense for the Court to employ him and Anja, since they're some of the Court's only engineers with experience combining mechanical and etheric science. I can't picture that either of them would willingly work on a device for severing people's connection to the ether, but the Court's level of bureaucracy could easily allow them to believe it has some other purpose - emergency defense against Coyote, for example.

[azuki]

Heyo, I'm new here and coming in with a Red/Ayilu theory— So back when Annie had that party with <snuffle>, a whole host of suicide fairy kids had magic ether abilities. Ayilu has illusions that retcon memory.. So what's Red's? My theory is that Red's power... are illusions that retcon memory, Ayilu a self inflicted illusion, maybe made as an animated decoy, maybe because she was lonely.

EDIT: oh wait can the kids use ether powers outside the ether ?

[fish]

Mar 2, 2017 2:49:10 GMT azuki said:

Heyo, I'm new here and coming in with a Red/Ayilu theory— So back when Annie had that party with <snuffle>, a whole host of suicide fairy kids had magic ether abilities. Ayilu has illusions that retcon memory.. So what's Red's? My theory is that Red's power... are illusions that retcon memory, Ayilu a self inflicted illusion, maybe made as an animated decoy, maybe because she was lonely.

EDIT: oh wait can the kids use ether powers outside the ether ?

Welcome to the forum!
I don't think we've seen them doing magics outside of there own mind (I might be forgetting something, though). Instead they were quite impressed with Annie's real life manipulation skils.

[Zox Tomana]

Mar 2, 2017 2:49:10 GMT azuki said:

Heyo, I'm new here and coming in with a Red/Ayilu theory— So back when Annie had that party with <snuffle>, a whole host of suicide fairy kids had magic ether abilities. Ayilu has illusions that retcon memory.. So what's Red's? My theory is that Red's power... are illusions that retcon memory, Ayilu a self inflicted illusion, maybe made as an animated decoy, maybe because she was lonely.

EDIT: oh wait can the kids use ether powers outside the ether ?

As an alternative: Could Red's power be the ability to see through such illusions? She's recently mentioned always being able to tell when Blue is using an illusion to kill herself.

[jda]

Mar 3, 2017 15:27:03 GMT Zox Tomana said:

Mar 2, 2017 2:49:10 GMT azuki said:

 Ayilu has illusions that retcon memory.

As an alternative: Could Red's power be the ability to see through such illusions? She's recently mentioned always being able to tell when Blue is using an illusion to kill herself.

Kat & Red: the ultimate party poopers (?).

[Runningflame]

Annie was something like ten or eleven years old when Surma died, right? So what would have happened if Surma and Anthony had had another child during that time?

I can think of two good possibilities off the top of my head: 1) the second child would be fully human, or 2) Surma wasn't able to have more than one child.

Then what about twins? What about identical twins?

Or what if they'd had a boy? (Which, biologically speaking, depends solely on the father's contribution, not the mother's.) The fire-elemental part of Annie looks pretty female, but does that mean the elemental part can only be passed from mother to daughter? (It might just mean she? it? looks like Annie.) If Surma and Anthony had had a boy, would he have received Surma's spirit? Would he have been fully human? Would a male fire-elemental descendant (if such is possible) pass on his spirit to his first child?

And, perhaps most pertinent: if Annie decides not to have a child, ever, what happens then? She's "mostly human," so I imagine she would get old and die as normal, but then where does the elemental go?

[keef]

Mar 8, 2017 19:31:34 GMT Runningflame said:

Annie was something like ten or eleven years old when Surma died, right? So what would have happened if Surma and Anthony had had another child during that time?

I can think of two good possibilities off the top of my head: 1) the second child would be fully human, or 2) Surma wasn't able to have more than one child.

Then what about twins? What about identical twins?

Or what if they'd had a boy? (Which, biologically speaking, depends solely on the father's contribution, not the mother's.) The fire-elemental part of Annie looks pretty female, but does that mean the elemental part can only be passed from mother to daughter? (It might just mean she? it? looks like Annie.) If Surma and Anthony had had a boy, would he have received Surma's spirit? Would he have been fully human? Would a male fire-elemental descendant (if such is possible) pass on his spirit to his first child?

And, perhaps most pertinent: if Annie decides not to have a child, ever, what happens then? She's "mostly human," so I imagine she would get old and die as normal, but then where does the elemental go?

Surma+Child
Annie+Child

One of the reasons I keep repeating that, when Coyote says: "Just as will happen when you have a child", he means it. She will have a daughter, the fire will pass to her, and Annie will die. Anthony couldn't find a way to stop this process, but maybe there may be a solution later. It's not impossible.

[warrl]

There's a strong expectation that people will have children. This naturally includes Annie since (at a minimum) on the human side she's the descendant of a very long line of people who did have children and precisely zero who didn't.

[speedwell]

Mar 8, 2017 19:31:34 GMT Runningflame said:

Annie was something like ten or eleven years old when Surma died, right? So what would have happened if Surma and Anthony had had another child during that time?

I can think of two good possibilities off the top of my head: 1) the second child would be fully human, or 2) Surma wasn't able to have more than one child.

Then what about twins? What about identical twins?

Or what if they'd had a boy? (Which, biologically speaking, depends solely on the father's contribution, not the mother's.) The fire-elemental part of Annie looks pretty female, but does that mean the elemental part can only be passed from mother to daughter? (It might just mean she? it? looks like Annie.) If Surma and Anthony had had a boy, would he have received Surma's spirit? Would he have been fully human? Would a male fire-elemental descendant (if such is possible) pass on his spirit to his first child?

And, perhaps most pertinent: if Annie decides not to have a child, ever, what happens then? She's "mostly human," so I imagine she would get old and die as normal, but then where does the elemental go?

Well, she was probably too ill to have another child, but I've always understood it as the fire passing gradually from mother into daughter until the daughter was a fully rational being, ready to take on her psychopomp responsibilities. Surely all fire elementals aren't psychopomps.

Twins? In fables and mythology, one of two things happen: either the twins SHARE the essence, or one is of (for lack of a better word) "positive" aspect and the other "negative" aspect. 

A boy? That's interesting. The fire elemental part would always have been female; what would it do with a male human body? Tom might be the only storyteller we know who might sincerely and effectively explore such an angle. My guess is that he'd be "two-spirit" or that the expression of the fire elemental would have blocked the expression of masculine features. Annie seems to be quite as much like her father as like her mother; maybe that's the most we would see. Mythopoetically speaking I doubt we'd see any male fire elemental/female human pairing because that would be altogether too much "yang" on one side overbalancing too much "yin" on the other; too "ardent" a lover embracing too "yielding" a beloved.

if Annie decides not to have a child, I think the human in her has been shown to control the fire elemental well enough that nothing very harmful would come of it, and they would simply "go out" together. Whether psychopomps lead other psychopomps to the afterworld hasn't really been established, has it?

[Jelly Jellybean]

... or Human-Fire Elemental Hybrids reproduce through spontaneous pregnancy, therefore they are always female.

I still haven't let this theory go even in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary. For example, Tom said that Surma could have deferred having a child to live longer. Given that, I have to grasp at the chance that Surma had some control over when she became spontaneously pregnant but it was still the same process.

[Deleted]

Mar 8, 2017 19:31:34 GMT Runningflame said:

Or what if they'd had a boy? (Which, biologically speaking, depends solely on the father's contribution, not the mother's.) The fire-elemental part of Annie looks pretty female, but does that mean the elemental part can only be passed from mother to daughter? (It might just mean she? it? looks like Annie.) If Surma and Anthony had had a boy, would he have received Surma's spirit? Would he have been fully human? Would a male fire-elemental descendant (if such is possible) pass on his spirit to his first child?

I always assumed there was something about how fire-elemental-hybrids reproduce that ensured that they could only have female offspring. Yes, sex determination is based on the genes in the spermatozoon, but the spermatozoon needs to merge with the egg, and it's easy to imagine that in some way or another the process only works out with an spermatozoon that contains an X chromosome.

Mar 8, 2017 23:31:47 GMT keef said:

Mar 8, 2017 19:31:34 GMT Runningflame said:

Annie was something like ten or eleven years old when Surma died, right? So what would have happened if Surma and Anthony had had another child during that time?

I can think of two good possibilities off the top of my head: 1) the second child would be fully human, or 2) Surma wasn't able to have more than one child.

Then what about twins? What about identical twins?

Or what if they'd had a boy? (Which, biologically speaking, depends solely on the father's contribution, not the mother's.) The fire-elemental part of Annie looks pretty female, but does that mean the elemental part can only be passed from mother to daughter? (It might just mean she? it? looks like Annie.) If Surma and Anthony had had a boy, would he have received Surma's spirit? Would he have been fully human? Would a male fire-elemental descendant (if such is possible) pass on his spirit to his first child?

And, perhaps most pertinent: if Annie decides not to have a child, ever, what happens then? She's "mostly human," so I imagine she would get old and die as normal, but then where does the elemental go?

Surma+Child
Annie+Child

One of the reasons I keep repeating that, when Coyote says: "Just as will happen when you have a child", he means it. She will have a daughter, the fire will pass to her, and Annie will die. Anthony couldn't find a way to stop this process, but maybe there may be a solution later. It's not impossible.

Coyote doesn’t seem to be omniscient, or even particularly thoughtful most of the time. Tom has said that “Coyote may be powerful, but he was never too smart.” Obviously he knows some things that humans don't. But remember that he initially thought Antimony was Surma, then he mistakenly assumed Eglamore must have been her father, and he also seems to have thought along with Ysengrin that Antimony’s jumper belonged to Anthony. Clearly, it’s possible for him to make mistaken assumptions about human behavior; I think he just assumed Antimony would choose to have a child eventually.

[Runningflame]

Despite all appearances, I'm predicting that Annie and Jack will end up together.

- According to Coyote, Annie will have a child someday. True, Coyote is not omniscient, but he knows Annie's kind. This is backed up by Renard's statement, "You have a fire in you that belonged to your mother" (spoken in the context of asking her about possible romantic interests). Conclusion: Annie will end up with at least a boyfriend--if not a husband and child--by the end of the comic.
- Annie's romantic interest will be a character we've already met. This one is a little shakier, since we don't know how much longer the comic is going to run, but let's assume we're a bit over halfway through (based on Annie's peers being in Year 10, with a projected conclusion around the end of Sixth Form). That's a bit late to be introducing a character who will end up in such a central role.
- The list of boys Annie knows is pretty small, if we narrow it down to only humans. Aly and Mort are out of the question. William, John, and Kamlen are pretty solidly taken, to all appearances. Matt is a possibility, but we haven't seen much of him lately. (Not since an incidental appearance in The Torn Sea, I think. Especially notable: his absence from the party in Get It Together.) Conclusion: Jack is the most eligible bachelor around.
- Annie and Jack have a fairly long history of semi-romantic feelings. (I don't think I need to cite every instance, do I?)
- More importantly, Jack is willing to be frank with Annie and hold her accountable for her poor decisions. Annie is willing to take it from him, and also to be frank with him in return. This is a sign of depth in a relationship.

Objections:
- Jack has a girlfriend. This may not last. It doesn't strike me as a terribly healthy relationship, since apparently a lot of what they talk about is Zimmy. I could be wrong, though--Jack could mature some more.
- Jack still loves Zimmy. On the other hand, that hasn't prevented him from having a girlfriend who isn't Zimmy. Especially since Zimmy is not and never will be remotely interested. (Yes, I realize this point and the previous one are somewhat contradictory.)
- Annie's not looking for anything. Key words: "right now." She doesn't rule out a romantic relationship in the future. See above for reasoning as to why this will happen.
- Jack and Annie aren't attracted to each other (anymore/at the moment). This is pretty complicated and unclear. Rather than rehashing all the evidence pro and con for each of them, I'll just summarize: feelings change. Surma X James looked like it would happen for the longest time, until suddenly it was Surma X Anthony.

Now, of course something unexpected always happens, and I'd put the odds of this scenario at somewhat less than 50%. But I also think it's the likeliest outcome. Counterarguments and opposing theories welcome.

SPOILER: Click to show

Of course, after going through The Torn Sea again just now, it suddenly became harder to avoid thinking about Jack X Gamma...

[speedwell]

I don't know, RunningFlame. This is a comic that has a lot of shapeshifting and nonhuman characters. I could, for instance, draw a lot of plotlines to the horizon line and see a few intersect. For a terribly farfetched and improbable example, it would not be impossible for Reynardine to use Coyote's power to take over a synthetic human body designed by Kat, become Annie's partner (before you get squicked out, there are many partnerships in which sex is not a priority or even a factor), and for the three of them to combine their various gifts and powers to think of a way Annie could have a child without uncontrollably transferring all of her own "fire". Less improbably, everyone could be wrong about it being necessary for Annie to transfer her fire and die. Even less improbably, Annie could simply recognize the transfer as a natural consequence of her heritage and accept the inevitability. The few times we have heard her speak as a narrator do sound a little like her record in the ROTD. In that case who she procreates with is less important thematically than the fact that she chooses to do so at all.

[warrl]

As age differences tend to matter less as one gets older, I think one must add [snuffle] to the the list of possible future mates for Annie.

[pyradonis]

Mar 14, 2017 7:15:05 GMT Runningflame said:

- Jack still loves Zimmy.

And that is not really "homegrown" love, it is a remnant of the Whitelegs infesting his mind.

[keef]

May 7, 2017 20:01:45 GMT warrl said:

Agreeing that there are exploitative and manipulative deals does not constitute agreement that this is an accurate description of any specific deal.

Many of us see nothing exploitative and manipulative about the deal between Annie and Ayilu.

Between Red and Ayilu... yep there's a lot of exploitation and manipulation going on there.

Ayilu's pretend suicides seem to be effective; Red is crazy about her. Red's sermon to Annie seems to be effective in the same way; where Ayilu seemed to be offended by Red's almost admission of love, the moment Red's attack on Annie starts, Ayilu calms down, and at the end she is totally in love with Red again.
Just subtle fairy mating rituals.

[keef]

May 30, 2017 0:58:13 GMT ST13R said:

May 29, 2017 23:52:42 GMT @korba said:

The meaning of this symbol remains somewhat mysterious (an inner organization of the Court that conducts surveillance and operates the Ether stations); more so its origins (unless it has long been puzzled out on the forums and I only missed the respective posts). We do know that it's intended to contrast with the traditional Seed Bismuth symbol for the Court, though (that's probably the one for diplomatic usage), and that it is always shown in bronze. I find it curious that Kat wears it on her apron here.

I don't think I've heard a conclusive answer on this topic, but some older robots seem to wear the symbol, or a version thereof too, check a few pages of this chapter (S1). Though you could argue it's not entirely the same as some have more dots, or that it aren't dots at all (S1 has 1, some have three or four, one is a shield?), I'd say there are some interesting similarities, and seeing how this giant-camera-for-a-head-robot has the two dots, maybe this kind of rank/insignia thing means they are indeed the surveillance-rank within the court?

// wild speccing done.


Also. Darnn, I'd never noticed the caller ID thing before

There was a speculation earlier about this, but I can't find it. Someone suggested the sprig on Young's coat was the first of these insignias.

[ST13R]

Jun 1, 2017 11:32:13 GMT keef said:

There was a speculation earlier about this, but I can't find it. Someone suggested the sprig on Young's coat was the first of these insignias.

Haha, yes, fia started it on page 53 of 'Cool things I only noticed on reread'. Didn't go much further than this though.
Now I'm wondering if Tom ever said anything about 'em.

I think the sprig idea is interesting, but on the other hand, I don't think Diego would have wanted his robots to look anything like Sir Young (except this guy ofcourse).

One thing I found interesting is that this guy seems not to have such an insignia in previous pages, but does in the pages after. But it could just be that Tom didn't find out about the inconsistency before that page (though he works quite a few pages ahead I thought).

[keef]

Jun 1, 2017 17:15:10 GMT ST13R said:

Jun 1, 2017 11:32:13 GMT keef said:

There was a speculation earlier about this, but I can't find it. Someone suggested the sprig on Young's coat was the first of these insignias.

Haha, yes, fia started it on page 53 of 'Cool things I only noticed on reread'. Didn't go much further than this though.
Now I'm wondering if Tom ever said anything about 'em.

I doubt it, can't find it on Chrysoprax, and the Question to Tom threads ended before "Spring Heeled"

I think the sprig idea is interesting, but on the other hand, I don't think Diego would have wanted his robots to look anything like Sir Young (except this guy ofcourse).

As fia said: Jeanne was part of the same organization, so why not?

(I searched "Shell" on Chrysoprax, always wondered why Tom gave Shell and Aata their names. At the time he considered making her a "fairly important character", maybe her role eventually went to Juliette.

One thing I found interesting is that this guy seems not to have such an insignia in previous pages, but does in the pages after. But it could just be that Tom didn't find out about the inconsistency before that page (though he works quite a few pages ahead I thought).

Another thing I never noticed...

[fallenleaves]

I think I'd always assumed that the "Omega Device" was the "man's attempt to become God" part of Gunnerkrigg Court that Coyote mentioned, and was connected to the power station we saw earlier. However, re-reading Chapter 53, I have to wonder about Anthony's views on it.

He refers to "their blasted Omega device" here, which may purely be about how difficult it was to research, but I feel it suggests a disagreement with what it is.
But then we have his worry about them "banish[ing] her from ... the program entirely" here.
So, he does want Annie to be in the program, which to me feels like this godhood thing. But if he disagrees with the Omega Device, and the Omega Device is actually part of the program (lots of caveats, I know), then we have a situation where it seems like maybe he less wants Annie to be in the program, than doesn't want her not to be in the program, which has rather distressing implications for what the effects of the program might be.
And yes, it does seem like I just extrapolated an apocalypse from two lines of dialogue.

Of course, the more likely outcome is that I'm either wrongly assuming a connection or badly reading Anthony.

[jda]

Jun 5, 2017 13:59:50 GMT fallenleaves said:

And yes, it does seem like I just extrapolated an apocalypse from two lines of dialogue.
.

That's the title of the thread, dude.

[pyradonis]

Jun 5, 2017 13:59:50 GMT fallenleaves said:

I think I'd always assumed that the "Omega Device" was the "man's attempt to become God" part of Gunnerkrigg Court that Coyote mentioned, and was connected to the power station we saw earlier. However, re-reading Chapter 53, I have to wonder about Anthony's views on it.

He refers to "their blasted Omega device" here, which may purely be about how difficult it was to research, but I feel it suggests a disagreement with what it is.
But then we have his worry about them "banish[ing] her from ... the program entirely" here.
So, he does want Annie to be in the program, which to me feels like this godhood thing. But if he disagrees with the Omega Device, and the Omega Device is actually part of the program (lots of caveats, I know), then we have a situation where it seems like maybe he less wants Annie to be in the program, than doesn't want her not to be in the program, which has rather distressing implications for what the effects of the program might be.
And yes, it does seem like I just extrapolated an apocalypse from two lines of dialogue.

Of course, the more likely outcome is that I'm either wrongly assuming a connection or badly reading Anthony.

Just to be clear, you are thinking of the Court's plan to kill all living beings on Earth using the fully operational Omega Device (Alpha et Omega = Beginning and End) except for those who are part of the program, and collect the released etheric energy with their Ether stations to become more powerful than the current Gods, right?

[fallenleaves]

Jun 6, 2017 0:32:42 GMT pyradonis said:

I hadn't considered the mechanism, honestly, but that sounds like it could work. That would be quite an escalation of scale from anything we've seen so far, though.

[todd]

Jun 6, 2017 0:32:42 GMT pyradonis said:

Just to be clear, you are thinking of the Court's plan to kill all living beings on Earth using the fully operational Omega Device (Alpha et Omega = Beginning and End) except for those who are part of the program, and collect the released etheric energy with their Ether stations to become more powerful than the current Gods, right?

Feels a little too super-villainy for the Court. Its leadership has done a lot of corrupt things, but based on what we've seen so far, and the tone of the comic, they're more likely to be after knowledge than mad destruction or world domination.

[pyradonis]

I don't think they would do it either, actually the first half was influenced by James Bond: Moonraker, and the second by Hel's plan in the current storyline of Order of the Stick. But this thread isn't called "Wild" specualtion for nothing.
Maybe this is not something the Court as a whole wants to do, but maybe they employ a scientist mad enough to think of it. I can also imagine the Court would try to kill godlike beings if they thought they had accumulated enough Etheric energy to weaponize it.

[fallenleaves]

Jun 1, 2017 11:32:13 GMT keef said:

May 30, 2017 0:58:13 GMT ST13R said:

I don't think I've heard a conclusive answer on this topic, but some older robots seem to wear the symbol, or a version thereof too, check a few pages of this chapter (S1). Though you could argue it's not entirely the same as some have more dots, or that it aren't dots at all (S1 has 1, some have three or four, one is a shield?), I'd say there are some interesting similarities, and seeing how this giant-camera-for-a-head-robot has the two dots, maybe this kind of rank/insignia thing means they are indeed the surveillance-rank within the court?

// wild speccing done.


Also. Darnn, I'd never noticed the caller ID thing before

There was a speculation earlier about this, but I can't find it. Someone suggested the sprig on Young's coat was the first of these insignias.

Just to add to the instances of this, there are similar insignia here.

[speedwell]

Mar 14, 2017 9:42:48 GMT speedwell said:

I don't know, RunningFlame. This is a comic that has a lot of shapeshifting and nonhuman characters. I could, for instance, draw a lot of plotlines to the horizon line and see a few intersect. For a terribly farfetched and improbable example, it would not be impossible for Reynardine to use Coyote's power to take over a synthetic human body designed by Kat, become Annie's partner (before you get squicked out, there are many partnerships in which sex is not a priority or even a factor), and for the three of them to combine their various gifts and powers to think of a way Annie could have a child without uncontrollably transferring all of her own "fire". Less improbably, everyone could be wrong about it being necessary for Annie to transfer her fire and die. Even less improbably, Annie could simply recognize the transfer as a natural consequence of her heritage and accept the inevitability. The few times we have heard her speak as a narrator do sound a little like her record in the ROTD. In that case who she procreates with is less important thematically than the fact that she chooses to do so at all.

Or for Annie herself to take over a synthetic body designed by Kat...